Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

‘Give’ them ? Why should anyone ‘give’ them a start... nobody ever ‘gave’ me a start. I did however ‘earn’ opportunity and ensured I was the best candidate...

Hiring is a competitive selection process...

Interview ten people ? For three positions ? Hire the three best qualified and suitable candidates.. end of. Let them ensure through their efforts that they are top three.

Strumms, I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or are genuinely that naive, but there is no point trying to have a discussion with someone who refuses to acknowledge that there is a bias against hiring travellers in the first place - no matter how much "effort" they go to.

Madeoface

My other half tried to teach some female travellers for a CEB some years ago. She was wary of a lot of the younger ones. The majority of that generation just wanted their 'wages' (double dole) and to smoke, gossip, drink cans of Coke and dine on the Government paid lunches. But perhaps that was no different to other courses from the FAS / CEB way to 'tackle' long term unemployment. Get em off the stats for a few weeks.

She said that the older cohort were lovely ladies but despaired of any of the women / girls under 30. Absent work ethic, no understanding of responsibility such as doing what is asked or finishing tasks, nor did they care much about self improvement.

The 'course' ran a few times every year regardless of output or outcomes. My wife quit after 2 iterations of the course as she couldn't see it improving anybody or anything except perhaps a tick in a box for the policy wonks to improve a statistic.

It certainly tempered her view of them being victims. It begs the expensive question, do you run a generic course for 20 people so 1 or 2 get something from it but it tackles nothing much? How many of these 'tailored' types of courses run and at what cost and to what goal?

Maybe one plus from lockdown is that such courses have been furloughed too.

PuddingBreath

Overheal wrote: »

Someone with blue eyes stole from me once.

Those blue eyed bastards are all a shifty bunch.

you're a gas man,

thing is, you can be as PC as you want, but from what ever ivory tower you come from you obviosly hadn't have to do jobs where you may have to interact with travellers on any kind of a regular basis. this is just one story, i could recount many, many more.

people i've worked with, friends, neighbours all have stories about crimes involving the traveller community, being threathned with violence. they're such a tiny minority, but cause a massive amount of havoc compared to the precentage of the population that they are.

we're all bigots i suppose ? better off get robbed and shut our mouths just to be PC ?

JP Liz V1

I would guess many are illiterate also, finishing school should be compulsory

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Strumms, I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or are genuinely that naive, but there is no point trying to have a discussion with someone who refuses to acknowledge that there is a bias against hiring travellers in the first place - no matter how much "effort" they go to.

As a 'person on the ground' I'm curious about that claim...

Any substance to it? Or, is it just some more nonsense coming from M Collins et al; that some, but not me; take as Gospel?

Doubt too many of them are looking for work, and for the ones that are, and don't get the job; how can there be any statistics on it..

Just more 'inherent bias' woke wishy washy bs.. Very abstract, and hard to challenge/disprove though..

raze_them_all_

It's not bias if I have an adult who can read and add passed aged 11 schooling why would you not hire them vs someone who doesn't, and I'm being nice by not putting this into just manual labour jobs

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

As a 'person on the ground' I'm curious about that claim...

Any substance to it? Or, is it just some more nonsense coming from M Collins et al; that some, but not me; take as Gospel?

Doubt too many of them are looking for work, and for the ones that are, and don't get the job; how can there be any statistics on it..

Just more 'inherent bias' woke wishy washy bs.. Very abstract, and hard to challenge/disprove though..

I posted earlier in the thread about the pilot scheme I was involved in with travellers within the Civil Service, and the fact is that even with experience and glowing references the only work they could get afterwards was childcare. They could not get a job in admin anywhere, even though well suited for it and more then competent.

My final word, as I'm not going to go around in circles on this.

If anyone here believes that a traveller has an equal chance at a job interview as a non-traveller, then they're just in denial.

You only have to read the attitudes towards travellers here on this thread to know that.

I don't believe it for a second.

There is no question that travellers are responsible for a lot of their own problems and a lot of it stems from their own culture and they need to address that.

But we can't deny there isn't prejudice against them in the non-traveller community, or that those who want to break the mould have equal opportunities at jobs "if they make enough of an effort".

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted earlier in the thread about the pilot scheme I was involved in with travellers within the Civil Service, and the fact is that even with experience and glowing references the only work they could get afterwards was childcare. They could not get a job in admin anywhere, even though well suited for it and more then competent, had experience and glowing reference.

My final word, as I'm not going to go around in circles on this.

If anyone here believes that a traveller has an equal chance at a job interview as a non-traveller, then they're just in denial.

You only have to read the attitudes towards them here on this thread to know that.

I don't.

There is no question that travellers are responsible for a lot of their own problems and a lot of it stems from their own culture and they need to address that.

But we can't deny their isn't prejudice against them in the non-traveller community, or that those who want to break the mould have equal opportunities at jobs "if they make enough of an effort".

Most of your point makes sense... What about the "Travellers within The Civil Service" part? Was it them or you, or both, who were working in the CS. If they were employed within the Civil Service; then they're already in 'Admin Roles' , no?

Were they part-time; and why weren't they kept on? Surely (I'm guessing) the Civil Service has some quotas for hiring minorities....

I reckon if they did have any qualifications; as you suggest they have, then, they must have been pretty basic if the advice was "Maybe you'd be better suited to childcare" . I'm doubting they even had a LC; which would be the least any employer would be looking for, even for a "lowly" admin role.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of your point makes sense... What about the "Travellers within The Civil Service" part? Was it them or you, or both, who were working in the CS. If they were employed within the Civil Service; then they're already in 'Admin Roles' , no?

Were they part-time; and why weren't they kept on? Surely (I'm guessing) the Civil Service has some quotas for hiring minorities....

I reckon if they did have any qualifications; as you suggest they have, then, they must have been pretty basic if the advice was "Maybe you'd be better suited to childcare" . I'm doubting they even had a LC; which would be the least any employer would be looking for, even for a "lowly" admin role.

All these questions are already answered if you're bothered to go back and read the thread.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

All these questions are already answered if you're bothered to go back and read the thread.

I'm guessing the answer to the qualifications bit is - none or very little.

Thread is too long to read. I was responding to a recent post, which is the done thing on here.

You seem to put down office work, as being a piece of pi5s, with your could not get a job in admin anywhere comment.

They aint getting no admin job without at least a Leaving Cert nowadays. Am also guessing they were all females, going by the 'get a hairdressing job'. Was there a 'bias' in your Civil Service enterprise against working with Male Travellers?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm guessing the answer to the qualifications bit is - none or very little.

Thread is too long to read. I was responding to a recent post, which is the done thing on here.

You seem to put down office work, as being a piece of pi5s, with your could not get a job in admin anywhere comment.

They aint getting no admin job without at least a Leaving Cert nowadays. Am also guessing they were all females, going by the 'get a hairdressing job'. Was there a 'bias' in your Civil Service enterprise against working with Male Travellers?

If you're not bothered enough to make the effort to go back and look at previous posts then I am not bothered to make the effort to respond to yours.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're not bothered enough to make the effort to go back and look at previous posts then I am not bothered to make the effort to respond to yours.

Not even a Leaving Cert then :rolleyes: Thought as much..

Nothing wrong with FÁS, or PLC type qualifications; if that's all they had. But those are more suited for trades eg Carpentry, Painting, Plumbing, Plasteriing etc... and even "hairdressing".

Forget about office type work; as lowly as it may be, without at least having completed second level..

pawdee

I'd say most travelers must have jobs. All I ever hear out of them is boss, boss, boss.

The only person implying that office work is lowly, or a piece of piss here, is you. You're also the only person who mentioned hairdressing.

If you really wanted to know the answer to your questions, you'd go back and read the posts. Its not that hard to search for one person's posts.

Its the least you could do before misquoting them out of context.

Lazy non-effort, at best.

You implied lowly Loueze with your "could not even get an admin role....

You also were the first to bring "hairdressing" into the discussion; when stating that advice given to the Travellers on your scheme was "maybe you should get a hairdressing job"

Lala land stuff. Not untypical though coming from modern woke types..

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

You implied lowly Loueze with your "could not even get an admin role....

You also were the first to bring "hairdressing" into the discussion; when stating that advice given to the Travellers on your scheme was "maybe you should get a hairdressing job"

Lala land stuff. Not untypical though coming from modern woke types..

You're clearly on a wind up now.

Time to ignore.

Galwayguy35

Most of them know they would be worse off if they worked, as they are they have free healthcare, housing and nixers for cash in the hand so no tax to pay.

And sure if anyone asks all they have to say is nobody wants to hire them.

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote: »

Lillyfae, for context, the traveller woman referred to worked with me in an administration role in my Section within a goverment department as part of a pilot scheme for travellers within the civil service.

After the pilot scheme finished, she tried to find work in another office in an admin position, but could not get a start anywhere - despite glowing references from us.

The only work she could get afterwards, was in a creche, as a childcare worker.

To be fair, the only employment she was likely to get in an admin role afterwards would have been public sector. IME, deserved or not, most recruiters in the private sector would see civil service experience as a negative on a CV.

Overheal

PuddingBreath wrote: »

you're a gas man,

thing is, you can be as PC as you want, but from what ever ivory tower you come from you obviosly hadn't have to do jobs where you may have to interact with travellers on any kind of a regular basis. this is just one story, i could recount many, many more.

people i've worked with, friends, neighbours all have stories about crimes involving the traveller community, being threathned with violence. they're such a tiny minority, but cause a massive amount of havoc compared to the precentage of the population that they are.

we're all bigots i suppose ? better off get robbed and shut our mouths just to be PC ?

Well, it is bigoted yes. The very nature of it.

By all means, be bigoted and racial profile if you think that’s how you have to work. Just be honest about the fact though and stop pretending Garda going around to warn pubs and hotels to close up for the travelers etc. isn’t segregationist. Because it is.

Don’t pretend you aren’t bigots though is all I’m at. Claim to be fair and then discriminate against travelers, isn’t on.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Well, it is bigoted yes. The very nature of it.

By all means, be bigoted and racial profile if you think that’s how you have to work. Just be honest about the fact though and stop pretending Garda going around to warn pubs and hotels to close up for the travelers etc. isn’t segregationist. Because it is.

Don’t pretend you aren’t bigots though is all I’m at. Claim to be fair and then discriminate against travelers, isn’t on.

No love for the Guards.... They surely are bigoted alright. There you have good honest to God Christian folk going to the blessings on "Cemetery Sunday" , only to encounter numerous members of AGS; some of them armed - tis as if they're expecting something to kick off. Happens regular in the Shannonside region - perhaps they're more enlightened in your bailiwick, and wouldn't even entertain the notion of mayhem happening in a Church Graveyard; let alone get such a manpower laden operation sanctioned by the top brass.

Fake Scores

Overheal wrote: »

Don’t pretend you aren’t bigots though is all I’m at. Claim to be fair and then discriminate against travelers, isn’t on.

A bigot might be someone who thought that travellers were sub-human and they that they weren't fit to share drinking space with you. "you're not fit to be in my company" type thing.


Someone who thinks a particular customer has a high probability of destroying their personal property and leaving them at a financial loss and seeks to mitigate that risk is someone who is a pragmatist as opposed to a bigot.


Both may be illegal and both may be wrong but it is disingenous to falsely conflate the two very different motives as you are doing.

Overheal

Fake Scores wrote: »

A bigot might be someone who thought that travellers were sub-human and they that they weren't fit to share drinking space with you. "you're not fit to be in my company" type thing.


Someone who thinks a particular customer has a high probability of destroying their personal property and leaving them at a financial loss and seeks to mitigate that risk is someone who is a pragmatist as opposed to a bigot.


Both may be illegal and both may be wrong but it is disingenous to falsely conflate the two very different motives as you are doing.

Hard to accuse me of being disingenuous by disingenuously distorting what I said.

As it stands, they aren’t fit to drink with you if you close your doors to them. And it’s as much to do with groups more so as than individuals. This isn’t the AGS going to pubs and saying “there’s a particular customer with a high probability of destroying your property” going around its then going around whispering “traveler wedding” etc. so I don’t know why you are disingenuously pretending that I was raising a problem with anyone judging any individual by the content of their character or distinct actions.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No love for the Guards.... They surely are bigoted alright. There you have good honest to God Christian folk going to the blessings on "Cemetery Sunday" , only to encounter numerous members of AGS; some of them armed - tis as if they're expecting something to kick off. Happens regular in the Shannonside region - perhaps they're more enlightened in your bailiwick, and wouldn't even entertain the notion of mayhem happening in a Church Graveyard; let alone get such a manpower laden operation sanctioned by the top brass.

We should let them bury their dead in peace and morn their loss in the pubs after!

"Gardai confiscate weapons cache at traveller funeral - Independent.ie" https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-confiscate-weapons-cache-at-traveller-funeral-26171716.html

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

We should let them bury their dead in peace and morn their loss in the pubs after!

"Gardai confiscate weapons cache at traveller funeral - Independent.ie" https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-confiscate-weapons-cache-at-traveller-funeral-26171716.html

According to the article, they couldn't have pulled it off without racial profiling first and foremost: "A major operation began after gardai were tipped off that the funeral of a Dublin traveller was to take place in the south Sligo town."

Incidentally google throws up a lot of reports of AGS confiscating everything from drugs to explosives; are they all Travelers?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

According to the article, they couldn't have pulled it off without racial profiling first and foremost: "A major operation began after gardai were tipped off that the funeral of a Dublin traveller was to take place in the south Sligo town."

Incidentally google throws up a lot of reports of AGS confiscating everything from drugs to explosives; are they all Travelers?

I'm from near there, incidents like this are common and pretty much expected. One of the families have a family plot in Ballymote. When there's a funeral they close the pubs in the town and also all the surrounding towns in case some nice people get it of hand.

"Traveller families 'in 15-year feud'" https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30172264.html?type=amp

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

When there's a funeral they close the pubs in the town and also all the surrounding towns in case some nice people get it of hand.

Another confirmation of practiced and accepted segregation in the culture.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Another confirmation of practiced and accepted segregation in the culture.

And why is that?

jmreire

Overheal wrote: »

Well, it is bigoted yes. The very nature of it.

By all means, be bigoted and racial profile if you think that’s how you have to work. Just be honest about the fact though and stop pretending Garda going around to warn pubs and hotels to close up for the travelers etc. isn’t segregationist. Because it is.

Don’t pretend you aren’t bigots though is all I’m at. Claim to be fair and then discriminate against travelers, isn’t on.

I dont suppose that the Guards doing the rounds of the pubs and warning them that there was a traveller wedding / funeral on the way, and to react acordingly, would have anything to do with maintaining law and order, based on previous experience? Or are they just being racist and segregationists' for the fun of it???

Fake Scores

Overheal wrote: »

Hard to accuse me of being disingenuous by disingenuously distorting what I said.

As it stands, they aren’t fit to drink with you if you close your doors to them. And it’s as much to do with groups more so as than individuals. This isn’t the AGS going to pubs and saying “there’s a particular customer with a high probability of destroying your property” going around its then going around whispering “traveler wedding” etc. so I don’t know why you are disingenuously pretending that I was raising a problem with anyone judging any individual by the content of their character or distinct actions.

I'm not trying to present something you are saying. Either accurately or distortedly. I'm trying to impart some simple logic that might help you.
You can love and respect a person and still fear that they will damage your property. You're faulty logic is that if you fear someone will damage your property then you must implicitly also hate them. I mightn't let my neighbour into my house because on three previous occasions he has trashed my living room. Now I like the man. I admire and look up to him. I wish he was my friend. But I'm not letting him into my house because he is going to wreck it.

Overheal

jmreire wrote: »

I dont suppose that the Guards doing the rounds of the pubs and warning them that there was a traveller wedding / funeral on the way, and to react acordingly, would have anything to do with maintaining law and order, based on previous experience? Or are they just being racist and segregationists' for the fun of it???

The TSA, and the NYPD, etc. etc. also had similar defenses to argue of racial profiling of blacks and muslims for pat and frisk, etc.

Does this argument, however, make the practice of racial profiling, not racial profiling? If it is racial profiling, how is that profiling not racist if the profiling is based on race? Or, in this case entirely, an Irish ethnic group.