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Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment
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Thanks for clarifying Loueze. That’s sh*t, it really is. I personally admire anyone who will go against adversity to succeed in what they want to do.
How long was the scheme? Did she have a qualification or was it just the scheme that she’d completed? If she was up against people who had certs/ diplomas or degrees and experience then it would be hard to justify hiring someone who just had the CE scheme experience.
To be honest, as I posted earlier it was 15 years ago at least - I don't know what qualifications she had or how she was selected to take part in the pilot. She was one of three travellers assigned to my department, and she was specifically assigned to my section and I was asked to take her under my wing and let her shadow me. And within a very short time she proved herself more then capable of doing the work to a very satisfactory standard.
The scheme was for a year (and I think it was run twice, so two years in a row) but I wasn't involved in the second year. I don't know what the overall outcome of the scheme was.
She really did go against the grain, because she was fighting a battle on two fronts. One against her own family and culture who thought as a woman she should just follow tradition and get married, have children and keep house for her husband, and didn't think she should be out working, and another against the difficulties she faced in finding work in the first place.
I think this "double front" still exists to this day - young travellers who do want to continue education, have careers, face resistance from within their own culture, as much as they do from outside it.0 -
As I said earlier I knew a large number of young Travellers through a CTW I used to work in. The biggest problems they have do not come from the settled community but from within and their so-called culture.
I have seen young lads taken out of courses in order to sign on the dole and I have seen young girls taken out of their courses at 16 in order to get married, sometimes against their will. This was usually because they were “promised” by their parents to the parents of a son of another Traveller family, an arranged marriage. This was done to preserve the culture / tradition of Travellers. Any young girl or boy would be frowned on and often ostracised by his/her family if they were in a relationship with a “Country girl or boy” ie someone from a settled family.
These are the kind of culture/ traditions that can only be fixed by the Travellers themselves or by those working on their behalf. They are living so much in the past though and culture means everything to them. They will never budge imo.0 -
I actually don’t mind subsidising a gypsy type lifestyle provided this isn’t a subsidy of criminality and there is something to be gained for the wider community, which was probably true when travellers were “tinkers” (a neutral term when applied to an occupation).
If we did in fact educate travellers and they became fully settled the culture would disappear. Then we’d be blamed for cultural genocide.0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »There's no point, most employers wouldn't take them on, our educational and training facilities, and employment system clearly doesn't work for them
Well a start would be to actually stay in school for the boys and not force the girls to quit school even if they want to stay in it.
Sometimes they need to take a look at themselves and their behaviour instead of blaming the rest of society for their problems.0 -
That penny won't drop by itself. The government needs to provide compulsory additional supports in schools to prevent kids (and not just Travellers) whose parents didn't get an education from going down the same road.
Every school already has a teacher who can step up to the role of a traveller liason officer whether or not theres traveller pupils enrolled.0 -
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Have you seen the amount of hearsay examples/negative anecdotes about travellers? I bet if I told you my positive anecdotes, you'd say they weren't true.Bravo! You’re backing up your claim with one hearsay example. Better than nothing
The people who get the most get-up about the traveller 'problem' as they see it, only have time for very superficial statistics about unemployment. They seek to fill any gaps of knowledge (why is unemployment so high) with personal anecdotes, and pure conjecture.
The suicide rate among travellers is 6x that of the general population, or 7x in the case of traveller males. 10% of patients in the Central Mental Hospital are travellers – this means they are 10 times overepresented relative to the general population.
Infants born in the travelling community are 3.6 times more likely to die as babies than infants in the general population. The life expectancy for all travellers is the same as it was for the general population in 1945.
Nobody chooses these outcomes for themselves.
We have to get away from the blame and derision that accompanies any discussion about travellers, and the resoundingly negative assumptions.
I'm not saying there is no place for personal responsibility. But we have to zoom out and look at the traveller community, and wider society, from a macro level. What initiatives would work to improve traveller engagement with the economy (having a job is one of the best predictors of personal welfare)? Housing is the other great predictor — are their housing needs being met? How might that be improved?
This is where the debate needs to focus. There has to be a major state intervention, otherwise we will forever remain whingeing and condemning (which has never achieved a thing) and keep on pouring money into failed policies, and watching ourselves churn out the same grim statistics.0 -
If you have no care, then why not stand aside for those that do and appear to be looking ever still for proactive means of bettering the Irish condition.
"Water is wet who cares" they care "well I don't." Is that the complete story arc?
Because the proactive solutions that are usually profferred, "more money, more QUANGO's", aren't solving the problem. How much money has been thrown at Travellers over the last 20 years or so? Billions.
Why have we in the west seemingly lost that concept of personal responsibility? Or Community responsibility at least?
Certain sectors of society talk all the time about their "rights" and what they are "entitled" to. But venture little in the way of what their responsibilities are.0 -
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »Have you seen the amount of hearsay examples/negative anecdotes about travellers? I bet if I told you my positive anecdotes, you'd say they weren't true.
The people who get the most get-up about the traveller 'problem' as they see it, only have time for very superficial statistics about unemployment. They seek to fill any gaps of knowledge (why is unemployment so high) with personal anecdotes, and pure conjecture.
The suicide rate among travellers is 6x that of the general population, or 7x in the case of traveller males. 10% of patients in the Central Mental Hospital are travellers – this means they are 10 times overepresented relative to the general population.
Infants born in the travelling community are 3.6 times more likely to die as babies than infants in the general population. The life expectancy for all travellers is the same as it was for the general population in 1945.
Nobody chooses these outcomes for themselves.
We have to get away from the blame and derision that accompanies any discussion about travellers, and the resoundingly negative assumptions.
I'm not saying there is no place for personal responsibility. But we have to zoom out and look at the traveller community, and wider society, from a macro level. What initiatives would work to improve traveller engagement with the economy (having a job is one of the best predictors of personal welfare)? Housing is the other great predictor — are their housing needs being met? How might that be improved?
This is where the debate needs to focus. There has to be a major state intervention, otherwise we will forever remain whingeing and condemning (which has never achieved a thing) and keep on pouring money into failed policies, and watching ourselves churn out the same grim statistics.
Having a job, sure. Get an education, stay in education, further YOURSELF. Enable YOURSELF and market your talent and ability to the jobs market...
The 2011 Census, only 8% of Travellers complete education to Leaving Certifiate Level, compared with 73% for non-Travellers. Only 1% of Travellers aged 25-64 have a college degree compared with 30% for non-Travellers. Travellers are more likely to leave school early, with 28% of Travellers leaving before the age of 13, compared with 1% of non-Travellers..
That’s their own stats..
https://itmtrav.ie/strategic-priorities/education/0 -
If I have to read another post about how I can help meet the housing needs of someone else ill scream. Im a little busy worrying about meeting my own housing needs. Seeing as no one is bailing me out anytime soon.
Travellers want a better life then they can work for it like the rest of us have too0 -
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »Have you seen the amount of hearsay examples/negative anecdotes about travellers? I bet if I told you my positive anecdotes, you'd say they weren't true.
The people who get the most get-up about the traveller 'problem' as they see it, only have time for very superficial statistics about unemployment. They seek to fill any gaps of knowledge (why is unemployment so high) with personal anecdotes, and pure conjecture.
The suicide rate among travellers is 6x that of the general population, or 7x in the case of traveller males. 10% of patients in the Central Mental Hospital are travellers – this means they are 10 times overepresented relative to the general population.
Infants born in the travelling community are 3.6 times more likely to die as babies than infants in the general population. The life expectancy for all travellers is the same as it was for the general population in 1945.
Nobody chooses these outcomes for themselves.
We have to get away from the blame and derision that accompanies any discussion about travellers, and the resoundingly negative assumptions.
I'm not saying there is no place for personal responsibility. But we have to zoom out and look at the traveller community, and wider society, from a macro level. What initiatives would work to improve traveller engagement with the economy (having a job is one of the best predictors of personal welfare)? Housing is the other great predictor — are their housing needs being met? How might that be improved?
This is where the debate needs to focus. There has to be a major state intervention, otherwise we will forever remain whingeing and condemning (which has never achieved a thing) and keep on pouring money into failed policies, and watching ourselves churn out the same grim statistics.
Are their housing needs being met?
The council here in Galway provides top class houses for them and when you see the state of the area after a period of time its like a bomb was dropped there.
Rubbish everywhere and damage to some of the houses, they ring the council and the rubbish is cleared and the same thing happens again.
Sulky racing as well on the dual carraigeway putting the public at risk.
And I doubt its just in Galway this is happening but we see it more because the largest amount of them is in this county.
And maybe the reason for mental health problems is the oppressive rules they force on their own people, change needs to start with themselves.0 -
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Nothing any settled person can do will change Travellers. Zero.0
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Mike Murdock wrote: »Because the proactive solutions that are usually profferred, "more money, more QUANGO's", aren't solving the problem.
As we're talking about ongoing efforts to find new solutions and the tabulation of employment data, I'm not sure how 'past solutions haven't worked' explains why there should be no care or effort to find new solutions or to continue to work the societal issue.0 -
Having a job, sure. Get an education, stay in education, further YOURSELF. Enable YOURSELF and market your talent and ability to the jobs market...
The 2011 Census, only 8% of Travellers complete education to Leaving Certifiate Level, compared with 73% for non-Travellers. Only 1% of Travellers aged 25-64 have a college degree compared with 30% for non-Travellers. Travellers are more likely to leave school early, with 28% of Travellers leaving before the age of 13, compared with 1% of non-Travellers..
That’s their own stats..
https://itmtrav.ie/strategic-priorities/education/
"yourself yourself yourself" yet as we've been talking about here, it's not as simple as self-determination if families are determining things for you on one end and society shuts many of its doors on them on the other end.0 -
As we're talking about ongoing efforts to find new solutions and the tabulation of employment data, I'm not sure how 'past solutions haven't worked' explains why there should be no care or effort to find new solutions or to continue to work the societal issue.
Because you can continue to throw endless funding at Travellers, set up another working group/QUANGO and still be having this conversation in 10 years time. Nothing will change until Travellers themselves want to change the negative aspects of their own culture.
That means:
1. Children, male and female, stay in school and either go to college or take up a trade.
2. Girls are not married off at 16 and made stay in the house and have kids, never allowed to work.0 -
"yourself yourself yourself" yet as we've been talking about here, it's not as simple as self-determination if families are determining things for you on one end and society shuts many of its doors on them on the other end.
No doors are being shut.
If the traveler family is an issue that is a problem existing in their own culture, ..
If you are a traveler parent, why would you be willing to re-engage in, repeat and be embracing of mistakes and injustices that your forefathers and mothers placed on you ?0 -
As many has already said the main problem here is that the traveller "culture"/way of life is not compatible with modern society.
I see the "replace traveller with black" line has already been brought up. Can someone tell me if the majority of black families actively seek to take their children out of education? Do the majority force their kids to get married and have tons of kids from around 16 years old? Do they celebrate the success of those who manage to get college degrees or do they ostracize them?
While there are thankfully a growing number of travellers getting educated and getting decent jobs, yet they will then complain that they get told "they are not like the other travellers" but the fact of the matter is they are not. If they have an education, they have a job, they aren't married with 4+ kids by the time they are 25 and don't travel around the country then they statistically not like other travellers.
They should be held up as golden examples that travellers can indeed succeed in Ireland and others should follow in their footsteps but of course they are not as it goes against so much of their culture.
Answer me this, if you adopt a child of a traveller and raise them in an environment far removed from the average traveller one, are they still a traveller?
To me they most certainly are, but I can guarantee such a child would have a much better chance of finishing school, not landing in jail, getting a degree and being employed.
Doing the opposite (travellers adopting a child) would obviously have a very different outcome.
So essentially being a traveller has nothing to do with it, its the behaviour and actions related to their culture that makes the difference.
If we can establish that the above is true do we need the settled community to adapt more or should the travelling community look to make some changes to the way they live?0 -
tayto lover wrote: »Nothing any settled person can do will change Travellers. Zero.
And then you have proponents of "major state intervention", all too happy to pour petrol on the taxpayer bonfire of money. To what end you wonder, when there is a lethargic attitude to change from within. Millions upon millions have been thrown at the problem, fostering an overwhelming sense of entitlement. Where's my free house? Where's my unlimited council tab to frequently clean up rubbish accumulating in the halting site? Answers on the back of a postage stamp.
It's outrageous what Travellers receive for nothing, and some are still unhappy with their lot. All the incentives in the world, and they still drop out of school prematurely and raise cain when employers overlook a lack of any valid qualification. Cry me a river, the victimhood narrative is beyond fatiguing. The majority of us have to earn our way in life, pick up our bootstraps and get on with it because there is simply no alternative. Education is the only viable way out, put up or shut up.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »And then you have proponents of "major state intervention", all too happy to pour petrol on the taxpayer bonfire of money. To what end you wonder, when there is a lethargic attitude to change from within. Millions upon millions have been thrown at the problem, fostering an overwhelming sense of entitlement. Where's my free house? Where's my unlimited council tab to frequently clean up rubbish accumulating in the halting site? Answers on the back of a postage stamp.
It's outrageous what Travellers receive for nothing, and some are still unhappy with their lot. All the incentives in the world, and they still drop out of school prematurely and raise cain when employers overlook a lack of any valid qualification. Cry me a river, the victimhood narrative is beyond fatiguing. The majority of us have to earn our way in life, pick up our bootstraps and get on with it because there is simply no alternative. Education is the only viable way out, put up or shut up.
1000%... to get things out of life, you have to put it first... not just hand out, money in...
If I was a member of the traveling community, I was having an issue getting employed... I’d do some interview skills training course, get advice on my cv, my technique of selling myself..0 -
Why is that a bad thing? I know why it's a bad thing, but do you?Only 1% of Travellers aged 25-64 have a college degree compared with 30% for non-Travellers. Travellers are more likely to leave school early, with 28% of Travellers leaving before the age of 13, compared with 1% of non-Travellers..
We want children to stay in school past their childhood, and to believe in their potential, because otherwise they will grow up to be adults who ecounter poverty and place less value on education, perpetuating a poverty cycle.
It's amazing that we express frustration at the parents who allow their children leave school early, because we know that child is being shoved down a bleak path towards poor socio-economic outcomes, or even crime.
But then something magic happens. The child becomes an adult and the blame resets. Now all the bad choices that were made for him, his entire life context, is forgotten — and we act shocked, angry and frustrated that this new adult is not making all of the right choices.
We now act as if his childhood is meaningless, and we no longer care if he was pulled out of school. Everything is his fault.
Now he has children, and he is a bad parent. It's the children we feel sorry for, because childhood is so important – and now the cycle begins again.0 -
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I find that impossible to believe, frankly. Won't find a bar anywhere that would try not to admit a traveller? Or a hotel that wouldn't want to host a traveler wedding? Heh? It just doesn't happen? No doors eh?
No, no doors are being shut. I can guarantee that.. education is free and open....A till doesn’t either refuse money... But if certain individuals behaviors are wearing out welcomes, damaging reputations of the good people in those communities .. that’s not on proprietors... that’s on those who are behaving in manners that might spoil the enjoyment of said establishments...0 -
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »Why is that a bad thing? I know why it's a bad thing, but do you?
We want children to stay in school past their childhood, and to believe in their potential, because otherwise they will grow up to be adults who ecounter poverty and place less value on education, perpetuating a poverty cycle.
It's amazing that we express frustration at the parents who allow their children leave school early, because we know that child is being shoved down a bleak path towards poor socio-economic outcomes, or even crime.
But then something magic happens. The child becomes an adult and the blame resets. Now all the bad choices that were made for him, his entire life context, is forgotten — and we act shocked, angry and frustrated that this new adult is not making all of the right choices.
We now act as if his childhood is meaningless, and we no longer care if he was pulled out of school. Everything is his fault.
Now he has children, and he is a bad parent. It's the children we feel sorry for, because childhood is so important – and now the cycle begins again.
The education is there, services are there, if they choose not to embrace these opportunities for their children, what can be done ?0 -
So only the offenders are barred?No, no doors are being shut. I can guarantee that. A till doesn’t refuse money... But if certain individuals behaviors are wearing out welcomes, damaging reputations of the good people in those communities .. that’s not on proprietors... that’s on those who are behaving in manners that might spoil the enjoyment of said establishments...
You must be living on another planet. There are two bars in my local village, and at least eight in the next town over. Every one of them closed for traveller funerals. Locals can enter alright, but the door is locked behind them.
This is repeated up and down the country. You're doing your credibility no favours when everyone here knows that cases like this are commonplace.0 -
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »So only the offenders are barred?
You must be living on another planet. There are two bars in my local village, and at least eight in the next town over. Every one of them closed for traveller funerals. Locals can enter alright, but the door is locked behind them.
This is repeated up and down the country. You're doing your credibility no favours when everyone here knows that cases like this are commonplace.
This.
Let's be honest about everything. The problem is neither squarely on travelers or on settlers but pretending that it's all the travelers fault and that settlers give them every opportunity and hospitality is a load of crap.
Folks if you can't be honest about the problem the solution will never appear out of thin air.0 -
Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?
Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.
That’s an absurd analogy given that we didn’t enslave travellers for multiple generations, nor apply jim crow laws for another generation, anti miscegenation laws for another generation, and trigger happy cops for another generation.
Also we never have seen travellers as a separate race, a distinction that used to be considered non racist but has now been condemned as racist.0 -
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »So only the offenders are barred?
You must be living on another planet. There are two bars in my local village, and at least eight in the next town over. Every one of them closed for traveller funerals. Locals can enter alright, but the door is locked behind them.
This is repeated up and down the country. You're doing your credibility no favours when everyone here knows that cases like this are commonplace.
Why is that?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »That’s an absurd analogy given that we didn’t enslave travellers for multiple generations, nor apply jim crow laws for another generation, anti miscegenation laws for another generation, and trigger happy cops for another generation.
Also we never have seen travellers as a separate race, a distinction that used to be considered non racist but has now been condemned as racist.
They're still a minority that are marginalized on sight? What happens when an Irish town when "traveler wedding" is whispered on the streets?
I didn't suggest they were twin situations or anything, I am of course not claiming that or any of the other traits in your post from the Black experience. I would think, that if I were to have a deep discussion about the fruit known as the orange, that an apple would surely be brought up as a subject of comparison and contrast, without anyone getting the mistaken impression that anyone involved in the conversation thought they were arguing that apples were the same thing as oranges, even though they have many things in common and are categorized similarly. Surely, reasonable colleagues would agree that both are two very different fruits. I don't think anyone would come in saying it was absurd to analogize between an apple and an orange..
The fact remains that in my observation, earlier in the thread in particular, it occurred to me that many people here are/were expressing the same kind of marginalizing things about Travelers as I find those with racist views towards Blacks in the US say or have said in our history, about Blacks. (I don't always capitalize that, but especially in this context..) Views mind you which were contentious and some of which were censured by the mods. None of which is to say people ought to necessarily be put in boxes like Black, Traveler, Prefer Not To Say, etc. but this is how we have structured the conversation!
"Travelers are X of the population but Y% of the crimes, therefore ostracize them, etc." is the exact same type of argument being lobbed on Black Americans as a way to blame them for the problem and absolve ourselves of any participation in forward betterment of society; it is argued that it be solely up to them and not the Police or Americans at large including themselves to end their marginalization. I've heard the same opinions here: 'we've tried to help travelers, it didn't work the way anyone expected, so their on own to fix the problem and we're gonna shutter up when they come into town or look for work.' I'm sure there's more nuance behind the way the opinions are being expressed than that, and that there are a lot of exceptions to the norm with regard to individual experiences, but that's the tone I am seeing here. That, in all of the above cases, people are looking for reasons or excuses to say the system is not the problem, the Others are the problem. 'The system works for us so why bend the system to work for them?'0 -
They're still a minority that are marginalized on sight? What happens when an Irish town when "traveler wedding" is whispered on the streets?
I didn't suggest they were twin situations or anything, I am of course not claiming that or any of the other traits in your post from the Black experience. I would think, that if I were to have a deep discussion about the fruit known as the orange, that an apple would surely be brought up as a subject of comparison and contrast, without anyone getting the mistaken impression that anyone involved in the conversation thought they were arguing that apples were the same thing as oranges, even though they have many things in common and are categorized similarly. Surely, reasonable colleagues would agree that both are two very different fruits. I don't think anyone would come in saying it was absurd to analogize between an apple and an orange..
The fact remains that in my observation, earlier in the thread in particular, it occurred to me that many people here are/were expressing the same kind of marginalizing things about Travelers as I find those with racist views towards Blacks in the US say or have said in our history, about Blacks. (I don't always capitalize that, but especially in this context..) Views mind you which were contentious and some of which were censured by the mods. None of which is to say people ought to necessarily be put in boxes like Black, Traveler, Prefer Not To Say, etc. but this is how we have structured the conversation!
"Travelers are X of the population but Y% of the crimes, therefore ostracize them, etc." is the exact same type of argument being lobbed on Black Americans as a way to blame them for the problem and absolve ourselves of any participation in forward betterment of society; it is argued that it be solely up to them and not the Police or Americans at large including themselves to end their marginalization. I've heard the same opinions here: 'we've tried to help travelers, it didn't work the way anyone expected, so their on own to fix the problem and we're gonna shutter up when they come into town or look for work.' I'm sure there's more nuance behind the way the opinions are being expressed than that, and that there are a lot of exceptions to the norm with regard to individual experiences, but that's the tone I am seeing here. That, in all of the above cases, people are looking for reasons or excuses to say the system is not the problem, the Others are the problem. 'The system works for us so why bend the system to work for them?'
As it has been explained to you on numerous occasions your reading of the situation is incorrect.
If only the problems of the world could all be described in the same way.
The comparisons you are drawing between Travellers and African Americans are so far off base it is scarcely believable that you are continuing to labor this point after the intricacies have been explained repeatedly over the course of the thread.
The two groups are not the same beyond the perception of them both being oppressed, scratch beneath the surface and the link between the two falls apart.Glazers Out!
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As it has been explained to you on numerous occasions your reading of the situation is incorrect.
If only the problems of the world could all be described in the same way.
The comparisons you are drawing between Travellers and African Americans are so far off base it is scarcely believable that you are continuing to labor this point after the intricacies have been explained repeatedly over the course of the thread.
The two groups are not the same beyond the perception of them both being oppressed, scratch beneath the surface and the link between the two falls apart.
The only comparison that they've made that I'd agree with, is that the problem is an internal one, that must be fixed internally. Groups that reject societies norms don't just stop because you ask them to, they have to decide collectively that's not worth it anymore, and reform their own culture. There's almost nothing that wider society can do to fix their cultural issues.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
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The only comparison that they've made that I'd agree with, is that the problem is an internal one, that must be fixed internally. Groups that reject societies norms don't just stop because you ask them to, they have to decide collectively that's not worth it anymore, and reform their own culture. There's almost nothing that wider society can do to fix their cultural issues.
There's truth in what you're saying, but there is no comparison between Traveller culture in Ireland and African Americans who are and have been part of all sections of American society from the very bottom rungs of the societal ladder all the way up to president of the country. Being a black person doesn't constrain in a similar way to being a part of the travelling community here in Ireland. Being black does not correlate in the same way to issues of criminality and anti social behaviour in the same way as it does with travellers, in that way the comparison the other poster made wasn't a strong one, but rather in my opinion an attempt to use emotive language to crowbar something into this argument that has no place in it.Glazers Out!
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