The trashing of our parks and beaches

05-04-2021 10:54pm

hmmm wrote: »

Maybe. I know that Glendalough is rarely trashed because the NPWS put a big effort into having rangers around who move people on. They can't do that in the rest of Wicklow - but it shows what is possible.

Anywhere I've been in Europe there tends to be a much more active (and well resourced) set of rangers who wouldn't be quick hassling groups and fining them.

I know I'm talking about camping and not what we are seeing in parks & beaches, but it's all the same problem and spilling over into rural areas. There are plenty of experienced wild campers who cause no trouble and clean up after themselves, but there is a new element who have arrived in the past 12/24 months who trash the place.

Our volunteer group are stopping cleaning up this summer. We are leaving it so people will see the mess left behind and it might get more attention. We will start again after the summer is finished !

05-04-2021 10:55pm

kildare lad wrote: »

I remember a friend of my telling me about a scheme like that where he was living in australia. He said you wouldn't see a can or a bottle throw anywhere as the local alco's would be constantly picking them up to get enough money for a few cans . I think it's a great initiative.

Witnessed it first hand whilst working nights on projects in Sydney. The local alcos would be out at night on bikes collecting huge bags of plastic.

Very good idea and simple to implement!

malinheader · 05-04-2021 10:57pm

kildare lad wrote: »

I remember a friend of my telling me about a scheme like that where he was living in australia. He said you wouldn't see a can or a bottle throw anywhere as the local alco's would be constantly picking them up to get enough money for a few cans . I think it's a great initiative.

I think it would be great to try. The state's must have something similar, in alot of films you see the odd down on his luck fella pushing the shopping trolley full of cans.

05-04-2021 10:58pm

Cyrus Bumpy Gauche wrote: »

Witnessed it first hand whilst working nights on projects in Sydney. The local alcos would be out at night on bikes collecting huge bags of plastic.

Very good idea and simple to implement!

It’s with the Green Party at the moment I think ?

joebloggs32 · 05-04-2021 11:58pm

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Our volunteer group are stopping cleaning up this summer. We are leaving it so people will see the mess left behind and it might get more attention. We will start again after the summer is finished !

I agree with you. There is a mindset that someone will pick it up.
Your group should let it be known publicly thats what you will be doing

spring lane jack · 06-04-2021 1:24am

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Of course it’s a no brainer but this is Ireland and some way will be found to stop it !

The anti everything people would throw a fit over it. They would genuinely prefer to see the place wrecked than allow winos and addicts to buy more drink.

Optimalprimerib · 06-04-2021 2:32am

I occasionally join the clean up crew in my area and truly it is disheartening. I think that a hefty fine or two hours of community service should be applied for anyone littering, where they have to help in the clean up. If they see how much crap you are able to pick in an hour, it might make them wiser.

Wanderer78 · 06-04-2021 3:02am

Optimalprimerib wrote:

I occasionally join the clean up crew in my area and truly it is disheartening. I think that a hefty fine or two hours of community service should be applied for anyone littering, where they have to help in the clean up. If they see how much crap you are able to pick in an hour, it might make them wiser.

I somehow doubt it to be honest, we apply these 'punishments' in order to force change, but there's no conclusive evidence to support that actually occurs, hard to know where to go with it

zell12 · 06-04-2021 5:30am

Runners collect 174 bags of roadside rubbish in pandemic clean-up

“We collected a staggering 174 bags [of rubbish] out of the ditches over a stretch of only 3km,” said Martin Baten of St Coca’s Athletic Club in Kilcock, Co Kildare.
The initiative was undertaken after club members were horrified by the extent of rubbish along the route of a 5km road race over the local Slí na Sláinte.

Unsure of the timeframe

Wanderer78 · 06-04-2021 5:32am

^^^Jesus that's diabolical, was in the forest over the weekend, some dumping going on

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 7:04am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

How did you “notice” what was in your neighbours green bin?

Bin lid was about 1 inch raised. He doesn't have a dog either btw

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 7:09am

Mimon wrote: »

Bolded bit is as lame an excuse as you could get. It boils down to personal responsibility for your own rubbish not excuses.

So you picked 1 line out of every post I have made on this, to claim that I'm making excuses for people? In all fairness, I've been trying to propose solutions for this problem throughout this thread. Don't accuse me of making excuses for anybody.

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 8:34am

whisky_galore wrote: »

I really cannot understand the mindset of anyone that hops into a car and sneaks out to drop rubbish. They obviously can afford to keep a car on the road but can't afford a rubbish collection.

And if they spend a couple of euro driving there, then paying for the bin to be lifted would have been as cheap.

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 8:37am

spring lane jack wrote: »

The anti everything people would throw a fit over it. They would genuinely prefer to see the place wrecked than allow winos and addicts to buy more drink.

Well that attitude is the perfect example of letting perfect be the enemy of the good. Here's an idea to avoid it though - you can't buy alcohol with the deposit refund. You get a voucher for the shop which takes the refund. Job done.

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 8:45am

I would also add that even among any group of young lads, I would be willing to bet that there would be 1-2-3 lads who would bring the cans with them if there was a 20-50c value in each of them.
It might help the rest of them focus on their litter too if there's a couple of example setters. All else fails, then someone else makes money on their empties.

Mimon · 06-04-2021 8:45am

hmmm wrote: »

These people aren't going to return bottles or cans for 5cents or 20cents or even a euro each. They've too much money already, the point of what they do is to show contempt.

The big difference between Ireland and the rest of Europe is enforcement I think. That's enforcement both by parents, society and the police, along with park rangers in national parks. We have no enforcement over here, teens and young adults have no boundaries and everyone is afraid to tell them to stop doing something.

A bit of education might make a difference because usually in these groups you'll have at least one or two of them who will be embarrassed. A great big sign saying that no-one will pick up your litter after you leave will get through to some of the thickest who think the litter fairy is patrolling beside every stream.

But going back to enforcement - it's not fair on landowners, and it puts those of us who behave responsibly at risk of having places closed to us. Allow landowners to ban wild camping, and then let's put together something (let's call it a "police force") which will enforce laws. You could also beef up the NPWS rangers, but I wouldn't really want them to have to confront possibly aggressive groups - but it'd be a good start for them to ask groups to move on.

Totally agree. Societal enforcement is what is lacking in our society.

I told a kid who threw his McDonalds rubbish in a doorway in Dublin to cop on and respect where he lives.

Had the mother a few minutes later shouting in my face, calling me a scumbag for challenging her little gremlin. Didn't care, these actual scumbags should be challenged. We are too soft on them. German, Swedish, Finnish people would not tolerate this.

Mimon · 06-04-2021 8:47am

This thread reminds me of the video of the boys in green abroad doing the pick up for the boys in green song when in Poland for the euros and picking up all their rubbish- where is this spirit when the same lads are back drinking in parks here?

Mimon · 06-04-2021 8:55am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

So you picked 1 line out of every post I have made on this, to claim that I'm making excuses for people? In all fairness, I've been trying to propose solutions for this problem throughout this thread. Don't accuse me of making excuses for anybody.

It wasn't a critisism of your point, you were making a total valid one. My point is that there will always be reasons/excuses not to do the right thing here but that's people abdicating their personal responsibility.

Most people on here and including yourself would go out of their way to not litter - I don't particularly like carrying litter for two miles back to the car as there is no bins at an amenity but that's what I will do.

06-04-2021 8:56am

Mimon wrote: »

This thread reminds me of the video of the boys in green abroad doing the pick up for the boys in green song when in Poland for the euros and picking up all their rubbish- where is this spirit when the same lads are back drinking in parks here?

We are much nicer - most respectful when we go abroad. The only way to tackle this in the short term is the deposit return scheme plus hiring more sanitation workers. Long term is education in schools, leave no trace ethos, tough waste reduction policies and registered bins like a TV license. This generation have never known frugality as they have been surrounded by a throwaway culture and plastic which is not solely their fault. Next generation may change if we act now.

PhilOssophy · 06-04-2021 9:06am

Mimon wrote: »

It wasn't a critisism of your point, you were making a total valid one. My point is that there will always be reasons/excuses not to do the right thing here but that's people abdicating their personal responsibility.

Most people on here and including yourself would go out of their way to not litter - I don't particularly like carrying litter for two miles back to the car as there is no bins at an amenity but that's what I will do.

Irish people don't do personal responsibility. Our courts are full of chancers who tripped or whatever, our roads are full of rule breakers, the only thing Irish people understand is "what is this costing me".

Before people become high and mighty, I know it is not everybody, but its a not insignificant cohort

Thelonious Monk · 06-04-2021 9:40am

A bottle scheme would help a little, but there's far more than bottles and cans being left around. Pizza boxes, plastic slurpy drinks containers, fast food wrappers etc, all seen on my jogs around St Anne's of late.
Also this isn't happening just because of the pandemic, although that has worsened it - we are still a disgusting and filthy people any time the weather is nice, as people gather outside. I remember threads on this problem a few years ago because of people gathering at Portobello during sunny weather, and making an absolute mess of the place.
I don't really know what the solution is, I went to a couple of beach cleanups but it's just pointless, there's a never ending tide of rubbish being dumped onto our land and seas.

Pawwed Rig · 06-04-2021 9:45am

Mimon wrote: »

This thread reminds me of the video of the boys in green abroad doing the pick up for the boys in green song when in Poland for the euros and picking up all their rubbish- where is this spirit when the same lads are back drinking in parks here?

So you have verified that it is the exact same people that were picking up litter in France that are the ones littering parks here have you?

Maybe just maybe the same guys picking up litter in France are picking up litter here. Whether that is true or not I have no idea but it is just as likely as your ridiculous accusation.

06-04-2021 9:46am

Yes I don't think there's a system that you can put in place that will stop or believe it's not solely these people's fault. There's no excuse for not bringing your rubbish simple as.

Parents need to really drive the point home to their kids how bad it is to litter. My Dad educated me when I was a nipper about it and didn't stand for littering. It's not rocket science.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 9:48am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

A bottle scheme would help a little, but there's far more than bottles and cans being left around. Pizza boxes, plastic slurpy drinks containers, fast food wrappers etc, all seen on my jogs around St Anne's of late.
Also this isn't happening just because of the pandemic, although that has worsened it - we are still a disgusting and filthy people any time the weather is nice, as people gather outside. I remember threads on this problem a few years ago because of people gathering at Portobello during sunny weather, and making an absolute mess of the place.
I don't really know what the solution is, I went to a couple of beach cleanups but it's just pointless, there's a never ending tide of rubbish being dumped onto our land and seas.

Simple answer to all of this. Not to go on to long so here is one, why do we need these massive 12 or 16 inch cardboard boxes to take a pizza home. As I have said its cosmetic advertising and should be met with fines for establishments who churn it out. Slice it and wrap it in paper, end of. If you can't handle this then don't buy it.

Thelonious Monk · 06-04-2021 9:52am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So you have verified that it is the exact same people that were picking up litter in France that are the ones littering parks here have you?

I thought it was the Greta Thunberg followers who were on the climate change marches, according to this thread?

Pawwed Rig · 06-04-2021 10:31am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I thought it was the Greta Thunberg followers who were on the climate change marches, according to this thread?

Exactly. The Gretta Thunberg boys in green supporters are the scourge of our parks and beaches.

whisky_galore · 06-04-2021 10:38am

Mimon wrote: »

This thread reminds me of the video of the boys in green abroad doing the pick up for the boys in green song when in Poland for the euros and picking up all their rubbish- where is this spirit when the same lads are back drinking in parks here?

That was only playacting for 'best supporters in the world' viral videos.
A face that's put on for foreigners.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 10:45am

Just happens I just lifted a frozen pizza box that someone ate last night. Can anyone justify why the cardboard is really needed when the frozen pizza is wrapped inside in a plastic bag.Trying to find a solution for Littering and illegal dumping will only work when the totally needless waste packaging is dealt with at the same time.

Pawwed Rig · 06-04-2021 10:46am

whisky_galore wrote: »

That was only playacting for 'best supporters in the world' viral videos.
A face that's put on for foreigners.

It wasn't. It was just a few lads having a bit of craic while on holidays.

Mimon · 06-04-2021 10:48am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So you have verified that it is the exact same people that were picking up litter in France that are the ones littering parks here have you?

Maybe just maybe the same guys picking up litter in France are picking up litter here. Whether that is true or not I have no idea but it is just as likely as your ridiculous accusation.

There were thousands of people there doing the clean up for the boys in green. They are the same demographic as people in the parks so yes it it safe to assume there is a large overlap between both groups. Do you think the fans are all sitting at home?

What ridiculous accusation? A bunch of Irish people abroad were showing their good side by cleaning up when but there were zero people doing this in a similar situation i. e. drinking in the open air back home.

Mimon · 06-04-2021 10:50am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It wasn't. It was just a few lads having a bit of craic while on holidays.

Yes it is having the craic but it is also fake behaviour that they have not backed up at home.

Pawwed Rig · 06-04-2021 10:56am

Mimon wrote: »

There were thousands of people there doing the clean up for the boys in green. They are the same demographic as people in the parks so yes it it safe to assume there is a large overlap between both groups. Do you think the fans are all sitting at home.

Ah the same demographic. Gotcha. What demographic is that then?

whisky_galore · 06-04-2021 11:01am

malinheader wrote: »

Just happens I just lifted a frozen pizza box that someone ate last night. Can anyone justify why the cardboard is really needed when the frozen pizza is wrapped inside in a plastic bag.Trying to find a solution for Littering and illegal dumping will only work when the totally needless waste packaging is dealt with at the same time.

You should be asking why the plastic is needed since it's already in a cardboard box.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 11:19am

whisky_galore wrote: »

You should be asking why the plastic is needed since it's already in a cardboard box.

Maybe . Every little bits a help. People need to wake up and realise 99% of packaging is not needed apart from catching the eye of the consumer or advertising.
Seen McDonald's advertising that there kids meals doesn't contain plastic toys anymore. No word of the box in the shape of a dog's kennel it comes in.

Thelonious Monk · 06-04-2021 11:27am

malinheader wrote: »

Maybe . Every little bits a help. People need to wake up and realise 99% of packaging is not needed apart from catching the eye of the consumer or advertising.
Seen McDonald's advertising that there kids meals doesn't contain plastic toys anymore. No word of the box in the shape of a dog's kennel it comes in.

It's not just the packaging it's the products themselves. How many new types of fizzy drinks do we need in plastic bottles?
We just allow anything and everything onto the market in the name of capitalism. We don't need all the ready meals and soups in plastic containers and the endless amount of products that are put upon us nowadays, we lived without them before. I mean look around supermarket fridges, sliced apples in plastic containers and the likes, it's depressing.
New products should have to pass some kind of environmental committee that decides if they're actually good for society or not.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 11:34am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's not just the packaging it's the products themselves. How many new types of fizzy drinks do we need in plastic bottles?
We just allow anything and everything onto the market in the name of capitalism. We don't need all the ready meals and soups in plastic containers and the endless amount of products that are put upon us nowadays, we lived without them before. I mean look around supermarket fridges, sliced apples in plastic containers and the likes, it's depressing.
New products should have to pass some kind of environmental committee that decides if they're actually good for society or not.

We have an environmental committee called the green party and if they would actually come up with something as viable and sensible as some of the suggestions on this thread I'm sure there support would rise.
Jesus its not rocket science, but then again perhaps there hands are tied not wanting to fall out with the big companies as all so often happens.

whisky_galore · 06-04-2021 11:37am

malinheader wrote: »

We have an environmental committee called the green party and if they would actually come up with something as viable and sensible as some of the suggestions on this thread I'm sure there support would rise.
Jesus its not rocket science, but then again perhaps there hands are tied not wanting to fall out with the big companies as all so often happens.

The greens are a little busy right now tearing strips off each other.

Thelonious Monk · 06-04-2021 11:42am

malinheader wrote: »

We have an environmental committee called the green party and if they would actually come up with something as viable and sensible as some of the suggestions on this thread I'm sure there support would rise.
Jesus its not rocket science, but then again perhaps there hands are tied not wanting to fall out with the big companies as all so often happens.

The Greens don't get to decide what goes on the market. And any attempt to do so would be attacked for being anti-jobs and anti-money.
We don't need take away coffee for example, it shouldn't be a thing, regardless if the materials are made out of vegetable matter, it's still taking up land, energy, and resources. I never see people buying it in Spain or France, they just stop for a minute and drink one there and then.
There are lots of things we don't need, if we want to get serious about the environment we all may need to be inconvenienced a little, there's no getting around that.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 12:01pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The Greens don't get to decide what goes on the market. And any attempt to do so would be attacked for being anti-jobs and anti-money.
We don't need take away coffee for example, it shouldn't be a thing, regardless if the materials are made out of vegetable matter, it's still taking up land, energy, and resources. I never see people buying it in Spain or France, they just stop for a minute and drink one there and then.
There are lots of things we don't need, if we want to get serious about the environment we all may need to be inconvenienced a little, there's no getting around that.

They don't get to decide is right. But can you explain why they never highlight the mess that our country is in with litter and illegal dumping. Why so quiet. As we all now you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Better sticking to cycle lanes and turf cutting.

Mimon · 06-04-2021 12:04pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Ah the same demographic. Gotcha. What demographic is that then?

What is this, an interrogation? You seem to want an argument and you're not getting one from me

06-04-2021 12:08pm

malinheader wrote: »

They don't get to decide is right. But can you explain why they never highlight the mess that our country is in with litter and illegal dumping. Why so quiet. As we all now you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Better sticking to cycle lanes and turf cutting.

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

h2005 · 06-04-2021 12:13pm

I live in Dublin 7. The place is destroyed with litter. People don't care they just throw it on the ground when done with it. Do people ever get fined for littering in the city or is it only ever for fly tipping?

06-04-2021 12:13pm

h2005 wrote: »

I live in Dublin 7. The place is destroyed with litter. People don't care they just throw it on the ground when done with it. Do people ever get fined for littering in the city or is it only ever for fly tipping?

Very rare in Ireland to be fined for doing anything.

malinheader · 06-04-2021 12:17pm

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

Still doesn't answer why the silence or not bothered. They are the green party, or is that in name only.
I'm not looking for this to be solved overnight or even by one party but why are people in power so scared of highlighting what a dirty country we have become and offer some solutions however small.

06-04-2021 12:22pm

malinheader wrote: »

Still doesn't answer why the silence or not bothered. They are the green party, or is that in name only.
I'm not looking for this to be solved overnight or even by one party but why are people in power so scared of highlighting what a dirty country we have become and offer some solutions however small.

Not sure, I think the bottle return scheme is in the programme for Government but haven’t heard a peep about it in ages.

06-04-2021 12:23pm

Cyrus Bumpy Gauche wrote: »

Witnessed it first hand whilst working nights on projects in Sydney. The local alcos would be out at night on bikes collecting huge bags of plastic.

I don't know much/anything about Australia, but likely the "local alcos" over here are getting €203 a week in the pocket. Do they really need to spend their time collecting cans for an hour to get a fiver out of it?

In Australia are the 'local alcos' getting similar money each week from govt?

06-04-2021 12:33pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's not just the packaging it's the products themselves. How many new types of fizzy drinks do we need in plastic bottles?
We just allow anything and everything onto the market in the name of capitalism. We don't need all the ready meals and soups in plastic containers and the endless amount of products that are put upon us nowadays, we lived without them before. I mean look around supermarket fridges, sliced apples in plastic containers and the likes, it's depressing.
New products should have to pass some kind of environmental committee that decides if they're actually good for society or not.

Whilst I don't agree with you (packaging shouldn't be the decider of whether a product gets to market or not), there are examples of complete overkill.

For example, I shop online with Tesco, and a couple of weeks ago I ordered a pre-packed salad. Bacon and Chicken Ceasar Salad. Everything, came in a large plastic 'bowl w/ lid' container, which was grand. But then within that, everything bar the lettuce had it's own separate packaging. Croutons in a plastic bag, bacon bits in a plastic tub, chicken bits in a plastic tub, ceasar sauce in a plastic bag, etc. it was waaay over the top.

On the other hand, I don't really see the alternative to a box, for delivering pizza. And in fairness, Cardboard is widely recyclable. It's filthy and lazy to litter this kinda thing.

I did a litter pick in my area last night (just headed out on my own for an hour). I filled 2 black bags from a single street, all because the local shop is nearby, and people just drop wrappers, and the wind brings it down the road.

The Council have been removing bins in the area, they stopped sending out their own litter-pickers, and they're slower than ever to respond to illegal dumping/litter clean up requests (not that they should need to be cleaning up after others, but they add to the issue).

Pawwed Rig · 06-04-2021 12:34pm

Mimon wrote: »

What is this, an interrogation? You seem to want an argument and you're not getting one from me

You made the ridiculous statement and came back at me when I questioned you on it. If you're not willing to discuss* what you say there is no real point posting in the first place.

*it is a discussion site after all

whisky_galore · 06-04-2021 12:52pm

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

Litter is boring, unsexy stuff.

The greens would rather chat about the shiny electric car that many of us would not be able to afford.
Sexy wind farms.
Easy wins (for them) like kicking in open doors of winding down the peat industry etc.

Calling out people on littering is shaming people and making them feel bad and upset which media tells us is the worst thing you can do nowadays.

Thelonious Monk · 06-04-2021 1:07pm

It is up to local councils to manage litter, DCC do put the message out over social media to take your rubbish home if bins are full. I don't know why people are going on about peat, do you think we should just keep ripping up peat until it's all gone? Seems a bit daft.

The trashing of our parks and beaches

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