The trashing of our parks and beaches

malinheader

malinheader wrote: »

They don't get to decide is right. But can you explain why they never highlight the mess that our country is in with litter and illegal dumping. Why so quiet. As we all now you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Better sticking to cycle lanes and turf cutting.

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

h2005

I live in Dublin 7. The place is destroyed with litter. People don't care they just throw it on the ground when done with it. Do people ever get fined for littering in the city or is it only ever for fly tipping?

h2005

h2005 wrote: »

I live in Dublin 7. The place is destroyed with litter. People don't care they just throw it on the ground when done with it. Do people ever get fined for littering in the city or is it only ever for fly tipping?

Very rare in Ireland to be fined for doing anything.

malinheader

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

Still doesn't answer why the silence or not bothered. They are the green party, or is that in name only.
I'm not looking for this to be solved overnight or even by one party but why are people in power so scared of highlighting what a dirty country we have become and offer some solutions however small.

malinheader

malinheader wrote: »

Still doesn't answer why the silence or not bothered. They are the green party, or is that in name only.
I'm not looking for this to be solved overnight or even by one party but why are people in power so scared of highlighting what a dirty country we have become and offer some solutions however small.

Not sure, I think the bottle return scheme is in the programme for Government but haven’t heard a peep about it in ages.

Northernlily

Northernlily wrote: »

Witnessed it first hand whilst working nights on projects in Sydney. The local alcos would be out at night on bikes collecting huge bags of plastic.

I don't know much/anything about Australia, but likely the "local alcos" over here are getting €203 a week in the pocket. Do they really need to spend their time collecting cans for an hour to get a fiver out of it?


In Australia are the 'local alcos' getting similar money each week from govt?

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's not just the packaging it's the products themselves. How many new types of fizzy drinks do we need in plastic bottles?
We just allow anything and everything onto the market in the name of capitalism. We don't need all the ready meals and soups in plastic containers and the endless amount of products that are put upon us nowadays, we lived without them before. I mean look around supermarket fridges, sliced apples in plastic containers and the likes, it's depressing.
New products should have to pass some kind of environmental committee that decides if they're actually good for society or not.

Whilst I don't agree with you (packaging shouldn't be the decider of whether a product gets to market or not), there are examples of complete overkill.


For example, I shop online with Tesco, and a couple of weeks ago I ordered a pre-packed salad. Bacon and Chicken Ceasar Salad. Everything, came in a large plastic 'bowl w/ lid' container, which was grand. But then within that, everything bar the lettuce had it's own separate packaging. Croutons in a plastic bag, bacon bits in a plastic tub, chicken bits in a plastic tub, ceasar sauce in a plastic bag, etc. it was waaay over the top.


On the other hand, I don't really see the alternative to a box, for delivering pizza. And in fairness, Cardboard is widely recyclable. It's filthy and lazy to litter this kinda thing.


I did a litter pick in my area last night (just headed out on my own for an hour). I filled 2 black bags from a single street, all because the local shop is nearby, and people just drop wrappers, and the wind brings it down the road.


The Council have been removing bins in the area, they stopped sending out their own litter-pickers, and they're slower than ever to respond to illegal dumping/litter clean up requests (not that they should need to be cleaning up after others, but they add to the issue).

Pawwed Rig

Mimon wrote: »

What is this, an interrogation? You seem to want an argument and you're not getting one from me

You made the ridiculous statement and came back at me when I questioned you on it. If you're not willing to discuss* what you say there is no real point posting in the first place.

*it is a discussion site after all

whisky_galore

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Because it’s a hard battle.Tackling litter and single use plastics means upsetting the order of things, people losing their takeaway coffee cup, refill stations in shops instead of endless plastic packaging, plastic bottles banned, people don’t want to give this stuff up as it’s convenient. Green Party won’t solve this problem, it will probably be another party that come after them that will fix it when it reaches a critical point. Another issue to be aware of is the emissions from incinerators when we burn all this rubbish we keep creating ! Most is not recycled it’s simply burned in an incinerator.

Litter is boring, unsexy stuff.

The greens would rather chat about the shiny electric car that many of us would not be able to afford.
Sexy wind farms.
Easy wins (for them) like kicking in open doors of winding down the peat industry etc.

Calling out people on littering is shaming people and making them feel bad and upset which media tells us is the worst thing you can do nowadays.

Thelonious Monk

It is up to local councils to manage litter, DCC do put the message out over social media to take your rubbish home if bins are full. I don't know why people are going on about peat, do you think we should just keep ripping up peat until it's all gone? Seems a bit daft.

Mimon

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You made the ridiculous statement and came back at me when I questioned you on it. If you're not willing to discuss* what you say there is no real point posting in the first place.

*it is a discussion site after all

Well what I have posted has got you all agitatated :pac:.

Hardly a jump to say lads that like partying abroad out on the streets will do the same with a bit of good weather in the parks here. Or have they all settled down to the quiet life and never leave the house? I don't think so - they are the session outside demographic from what I see.

Following on why aren't they encouraging their fellow revellers to clean up in Ireland?

Pawwed Rig

Mimon wrote: »

Following on why aren't they encouraging their fellow revellers to clean up in Ireland?

And how do you know they don't?

It is the lazy generalisation without evidence that is ridiculous. Similar to the other generalisation about the Gretta Thunberg generation.

A few lads (and it was less than 100 not thousands) cleaning up the streets of France after a party are therefore to blame for littering parks around Ireland? It is a nonsense to suggest that because they party on away games that they obviously drink in parks here. Most of the drinking done in parks is by youths who have nowhere else to drink and are at a stage in their life where they want to drink with their friends but so not have their place yet. This is a completely different demographic than those who have the funds to travel 3/4 times a year to watch international football. The primary demographic actually would be middle aged men veering into old age as they have supported Ireland since the glory days and earlier. There is a younger contingent that go aswell but they seem to be largely NI based.

When I am on hols I go out for dinner every night. Does that automatically mean I go out for dinner every night here? Of course not. To suggest so would be ridiculous. I don't think not is that controversial to think that when on holidays people might behave a bit differently than normal.
So if you can back up your point then please do so or else admit you made a lazy generalisation and move on.

Pawwed Rig

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It is up to local councils to manage litter, DCC do put the message out over social media to take your rubbish home if bins are full.

Do signs actually work? I don't think anyone actually thinks leaving their rubbish all over the place is the right thing to do. It is just laziness and signs won't help. Neither will fines as they are unenforceable.
A cultural change is needed to stop people believing that it is someone else's job to clean up after them but tbh I think we are going in the opposite direction towards more litter than getting any better.

Thelonious Monk

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do signs actually work? I don't think anyone actually thinks leaving their rubbish all over the place is the right thing to do. It is just laziness and signs won't help. Neither will fines as they are unenforceable.
A cultural change is needed to stop people believing that it is someone else's job to clean up after them but tbh I think we are going in the opposite direction towards more litter than getting any better.

It's just that the whole concept of littering doesn't even enter their minds. I have had flatmates in the past who just left dishes around or left shared areas messy all the time, which is really inconsiderate, but they don't have any type of idea that they're doing anything wrong. You could point it out to them and they might clean it up, but you'd have to be doing that on a daily basis and after a while the best thing to do is get your own place!
With regards littering in public we seem to have a lot of people like this in Ireland, must be a cultural thing, some of our more sophisticated European neighbours probably have been taking pride in the appearance of their towns for centuries, there is very little civic pride in Ireland.

Pawwed Rig

Tidy towns are a thing when I was little and there was a Mr Tidy publication aimed at kids so it is not a lack of education.
Hard to know where the mentality comes from tbh.

I hate to bring it up but I find where there is a majority that owns their homes rather than renting civic pride seems to be more of a thing. Large rental areas tend to (ime) more likely covered in litter.

Thelonious Monk

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Tidy towns are a thing when I was little and there was a Mr Tidy publication aimed at kids so it is not a lack of education.
Hard to know where the mentality comes from tbh.

I hate to bring it up but I find where there is a majority that owns their homes rather than renting civic pride seems to be more of a thing. Large rental areas tend to (ime) more likely covered in litter.

Dublin 1 always tops the list of most littered place in Ireland. The locals just leave their rubbish out on the street or around public bins as they don't want to pay for bin tags or whatever. Mostly social housing.

downtheroad

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Re the 16 year old, I bet if there was a refund for that can he'd have had a different mindset.

A 16 year old who has had a bag of cans in a field isn't going to be the one bringing them to the recycling centre for the deposit, however you would get people collecting the cans to make a few quid.

Saw this in action in Cologne a couple of years ago. People go down to the river to have a few social beers and there are locals who go around asking can they have your empties to claim the deposit. They might be down on their luck or just looking to make a few quid but the system works, the empties get returned and there is no mess. My favourite was a guy who added a wagon to the back of his bike and cycled up and down the river collecting loads of bottles and a good few euro in the process.

We actually never bothered with returning our bottles to the shop in the end, used to just wait for somebody who was collecting them instead and good luck to them, happier for them to get the 25cent or whatever it was.

malinheader

Funny how a few people on this thread can propose numerous measures that would definitely help in the littering of our country but the powers who be and the people who we vote in to run the country couldn't be bothered at all.

Perhaps they know there will always be a few who give up their time picking up after others

whisky_galore

malinheader wrote: »

Funny how a few people on this thread can propose numerous measures that would definitely help in the littering of our country but the powers who be and the people who we vote in to run the country couldn't be bothered at all.

Maybe because all many people care about is how well they are 'looked after', how much money they have in their pockets and vote on that basis?

Pawwed Rig

malinheader wrote: »

Funny how a few people on this thread can propose numerous measures that would definitely help in the littering of our country but the powers who be and the people who we vote in to run the country couldn't be bothered at all.

Perhaps they know there will always be a few who give up their time picking up after others

The laws are there. It all comes down to enforcement and execution. There is no appetite in this country to enforce the payment of fines on those who have (on paper at least) limited means and a judge will not send someone to jail for the non payment of a fine. How do you then enforce payment on someone who is not willing to pay? The only people who need to pay fines are those who have to be concerned with their credit and don't have time for court appearance etc.

I like the idea of a sort of community service instead of fines where people have to go rubbish collecting but then you would have council workers up in arms that their jobs are being taken by what is essentially slave labour*.


*hysterical language intentional

malinheader

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The laws are there. It all comes down to enforcement and execution. There is no appetite in this country to enforce the payment of fines on those who have (on paper at least) limited means and a judge will not send someone to jail for the non payment of a fine. How do you then enforce payment on someone who is not willing to pay? The only people who need to pay fines are those who have to be concerned with their credit and don't have time for court appearance etc.

I like the idea of a sort of community service instead of fines where people have to go rubbish collecting but then you would have council workers up in arms that their jobs are being taken by what is essentially slave labour*.


*hysterical language intentional

Fines definitely don't work in this country is true. But looking at returnable items for cash and an emphasis on reducing packaging would be more the route I would like to see taken

Thelonious Monk

Returnables would help, but bottles and cans don't make up the bulk of the rubbish out there, it's all kinds of crap. I suppose after nice weather you'll notice the cans and bottles more, but general rubbish is all sorts.

downtheroad

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The laws are there. It all comes down to enforcement and execution. There is no appetite in this country to enforce the payment of fines on those who have (on paper at least) limited means and a judge will not send someone to jail for the non payment of a fine. How do you then enforce payment on someone who is not willing to pay? The only people who need to pay fines are those who have to be concerned with their credit and don't have time for court appearance etc.

I like the idea of a sort of community service instead of fines where people have to go rubbish collecting but then you would have council workers up in arms that their jobs are being taken by what is essentially slave labour*.


*hysterical language intentional

Who is going to catch the litterers and issue the fine? I see plenty of signs about fines for not picking up after a dog, have never once seen a litter warden in the local park. Rarely see gardai on the beat anywhere but the city centre and even that is rare.

Public shaming of anyone miraculously caught littering would be the best punishment, a €100 fine won't make them think twice but standing in the local area with a sign definitely would.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shame-in-loo-of-punishment-26142813.html

malinheader

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Returnables would help, but bottles and cans don't make up the bulk of the rubbish out there, it's all kinds of crap. I suppose after nice weather you'll notice the cans and bottles more, but general rubbish is all sorts.

Everything has to start somewhere, just because it doesn't sort all of the litter it shouldn't be a reason not to start addressing a small part of the problem first.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Returnables would help, but bottles and cans don't make up the bulk of the rubbish out there, it's all kinds of crap. I suppose after nice weather you'll notice the cans and bottles more, but general rubbish is all sorts.

Said this numerous times on this post. The bottle return scheme backed up by waste reduction / single use bans is what will sort this. We banned plastic bags and it worked ! You can have all the signs in the world it won’t make any difference. It’s a generational shift away from plastic that is needed. Enforcement only works if it’s resourced and enforced ! There is absolutely zero enforcement in Ireland at the moment so forget it.

malinheader

Kenya Crooked Tarp wrote: »

Said this numerous times on this post. The bottle return scheme backed up by waste reduction / single use bans is what will sort this. We banned plastic bags and it worked ! You can have all the signs in the world it won’t make any difference. It’s a generational shift away from plastic that is needed. Enforcement only works if it’s resourced and enforced ! There is absolutely zero enforcement in Ireland at the moment.

Something that should be banned yesterday is single use coffee cups.
Take your own and fill or don't bother.

whisky_galore

malinheader wrote: »

Something that should be banned yesterday is single use coffee cups.
Take your own and fill or don't bother.

The reusable cup was gaining popularity until CV19 hit. Now its disposable everything because covid.

malinheader

whisky_galore wrote: »

The reusable cup was gaining popularity until CV19 hit. Now its disposable everything because covid.

What I mean by reusable cup is a person's own cup, like the stainless flask cups alot use. I have one in my car and one in my work vehicle. Nearly always hot water available in coffee shops or machines to rinse out if using more than once during a day.

Nevin Parsnipp

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Dublin 1 always tops the list of most littered place in Ireland. The locals just leave their rubbish out on the street or around public bins as they don't want to pay for bin tags or whatever. Mostly social housing.

Don't want to pay the rent for those either ....

PhilOssophy

Clean up for the boys in green was about 5 Irish lads cleaning up a bit of a square. The rest of the place was absolutely thrashed. And it was only because everything was "for the boys in Green".
Ultimately, after all that has been said above, I still only see 2 things we can do quickly:
1. A flat rate bin charge, added to the property tax. This completely negates any benefit of dropping your crap in a laneway or bringing your household waste to a public bin. Thus, our bins will be less crowded with some locals shampoo bottles/whatever.
2. A 50c deposit on every can/plastic bottle, and if its not possible to extend to glass, a "disposal charge" to fund having more bottle banks at parks, etc.

And then more long term, education and public campaigns such as "leave no trace" need to become vogue.

I also don't think this is just an Anto and Sharon problem - there are lots of well heeled and well educated teenagers whose parents think the sun shines through them, leaving their local park in a state. So it isn't just a "scumbag" problem - it is right across our society.

Unfortunately, altruism isn't a trait which is in a lot of Irish people - it has always been part of our psyche to do the opposite to the right thing, or to be the victims or that it is somebody else's problem. Or once "its not my problem", then it is OK if it is somebody else's problem.

I know one thing - if 1 county is spending 90m per annum on picking up fly tipped material, multiplied by 26 counties this is 2.34bn. We might as well give everybody free bins if that is the indirect spend - that works out at 477 euro per annum for every man/woman/child in the state. What a shocking waste, no pun intended.