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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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    #2312
    sideswipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    How can anybody, even if they are members or not defend this stance. The clannish behaviour and personal insults are OTT.


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    #2313
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    Higgins5473 wrote: »
    You're not only out of your mallet, you haven't the slightest breeze what you are on about. You're an embarrassment.

    You might not agree with me but you know it is possible to disagree without hurling abuse at someone.


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    #2314
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Fair play to the ASTI.


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    #2315
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Just trying to understand as a lay person. State or no state can stop one person suing another person if they want to. Is that not correct ? To prevent them from doing so would be to take away, as it pertains to this situation, the LC student's legal rights, which are the same as anyone elses rights. But indemnity means "security against or exemption from legal liability for one's actions". So does that not mean if they sue, the State have given an undertaking they have the teachers covered. Basically my question is what guarantee is better than a State guarantee ?? Can someone explain.


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    #2316
    JP100
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭JP100


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    Imagine if nurses, doctors and healthcare workers took this stance.

    Why? Are the government asking health care workers to mark the LC?!


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    #2317
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Just trying to understand as a lay person. State or no state can stop one person suing another person if they want to. Is that not correct ? To prevent them from doing so would be to take away, as it pertains to this situation, the LC student's legal rights, which are the same as anyone elses rights. But indemnity means "security against or exemption from legal liability for one's actions". So does that not mean if they sue, the State have given an undertaking they have the teachers covered. Basically my question is what guarantee is better than a State guarantee ?? Can someone explain.

    Yes that seems to be the plan, the state has given indemnity for teachers and schools to protect them from possible legal action. But ASTI aren't satisfied that it's enough.

    Other unions and groups involved in the process seem to be OK with it.

    Even the childcare for front line workers couldn't get a state indemnity (which is why that's still a mess).


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    #2318
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    JP100 wrote: »
    Why? Are the government asking health care workers to mark the LC?!

    No but they can't get childcare due to a lack of state indemnity.


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    #2319
    JP100
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭JP100


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    No but they can't get childcare due to a lack of state indemnity.

    No, they're indeed not as you acknowledge, so your point talking about health care workers and the LC is utterly stupid.


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    #2320
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    Is this what the ASTI are complaining about?
    This indemnity will be subject to conditions around notification and cooperation with the State
    in defending any legal cases should they arise and will only be capable of being invoked where
    a person has acted bona fide, i.e. has made every reasonable effort to carry out their role in
    accordance with the guidance provided in this Guide and the relevant circular of the
    Department of Education and Skills.
    On the face of it, who would expect to be indemnified for not acting bona-fide, but the term "every reasonable effort" could be of concern? What does "every" mean there? It's fairly horrendous the litigation culture that has crept into education, so I think the concern is not unfounded.


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    #2321
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    plodder wrote: »
    Is this what the ASTI are complaining about?

    On the face of it, who would expect to be indemnified for not acting bona-fide, but the term "every reasonable effort" could be of concern? What does "every" mean there? It's fairly horrendous the litigation culture that has crept into education, so I think the concern is not unfounded.

    This is the bit yes. And apparently their legal advice is that the teacher could be liable for 1/3 of costs which would be enormous.

    Considering the evidence which we have to base our professional judgement in was not gathered for this purpose I think it’s very important that the indemnity protects us. We are a very litigious country


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    #2322
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Teachers are now “disgusting” and “awful”. These are the same teachers who are also being blamed for “not wanting to open the schools”.
    This is a situation which will be resolved quite simply. One extra line in the indemnity will be written and everyone will move on. No teacher should be responsible for any of their legal costs for the situation they find themselves in. This is not a situation of their making. Despite some of the nonsense being spouted here they stepped up to the mark and agreed to fully participate in what is a fundamentally flawed system.
    This situation came about because the department bowed to public pressure. We now have some of the same individuals who insisted that the Leaving Cert should be cancelled on safety grounds looking to reopen schools before September.
    It is impossible to have a reasonable and nuanced discussion with people who will ignore all evidence. Some of what has been written here would be more appropriate in a thread on conspiracy theories.


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    #2323
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    No but they can't get childcare due to a lack of state indemnity.

    Could you please expand on this point so people can understand the comparison you are trying to make?


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    #2324
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Could you please expand on this point so people can understand the comparison you are trying to make?

    Teachers union - we don't let our members engage because your state indemnity is not enough.

    Frontline essential workers - no state indemnity for you (continues to do job).

    I think you'll agree that there's not much of a comparison between LC grading and the work that frontline workers have had to contend with over the past few months and yet the disparity is there.

    And unions (only one of them BTW) oppose it because that's their default.


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    #2325
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    Teachers union - we don't let our members engage because your state indemnity is not enough.

    Frontline essential workers - no state indemnity for you (continues to do job).

    I think you'll agree that there's not much of a comparison between LC grading and the work that frontline workers have had to contend with over the past few months and yet the disparity is there.

    And unions (only one of them BTW) oppose it because that's their default.

    Are they both asking to be indemnified against the same possibility?


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    #2326
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    No teacher should be responsible for any of their legal costs for the situation they find themselves in.

    I think any reasonable person would agree with that.


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    #2327
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    I don't envy secondary teachers going through this LC grading process. It's a minefield and anyone who engages with it honestly and in good faith should be 100% indemnified.

    On a different point, I saw this piece in the IT

    Our warped sense of perspective bodes ill for Ireland's economy

    Sooner or later we are going to have to face the reality of what this is costing us, and we will have to get serious about re-opening the economy, including schools.


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    #2328
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Are they both asking to be indemnified against the same possibility?

    They are both asking to be indemnified against legal repercussions in order to allow them to do their job.

    The state has agreed to indemnify teachers and schools and have spent weeks ironing out the detail alongside unions and representative bodies.

    The state will not indemnify a childcare solution for frontline workers. Do you see them now refusing to do their job?


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    #2329
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

    And unions (only one of them BTW) oppose it because that's their default.

    I've no skin in this game as I'm primary but the TUI are well known as total walk overs. They pretty much rollover and ask for their belly to be tickle by the Govt such is their haste to accept everything that they throw their way. Never really question or query things. Fair play to the the ASTI for looking after their members. That is what they are there for.


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    #2330
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    They are both asking to be indemnified against legal repercussions in order to allow them to do their job.

    The state has agreed to indemnify teachers and schools and have spent weeks ironing out the detail alongside unions and representative bodies.

    The state will not indemnify a childcare solution for frontline workers. Do you see them now refusing to do their job?

    I’ll ask the same question again. Are they both looking for indemnity against the same possibility? Please try and answer the question this time so we can fully understand the point you are attempting to make.


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    #2331
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    They are both asking to be indemnified against legal repercussions in order to allow them to do their job.

    The state has agreed to indemnify teachers and schools and have spent weeks ironing out the detail alongside unions and representative bodies.

    The state will not indemnify a childcare solution for frontline workers. Do you see them now refusing to do their job?

    Look one union has legal advice that says it is not water tight. Isn't it best to get that sorted rather than leave teachers wide open rather than being left to partially foot the cost of any legal action taken?


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    #2332
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    They are both asking to be indemnified against legal repercussions in order to allow them to do their job.

    The state has agreed to indemnify teachers and schools and have spent weeks ironing out the detail alongside unions and representative bodies.

    The state will not indemnify a childcare solution for frontline workers. Do you see them now refusing to do their job?

    It’s not the job of teachers to decide LC grades. But as you insist on repeating non-stop, these are extraordinary times.

    Your comparison with healthcare workers is the dumbest thing I’ve seen this week.


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    #2333
    annoyedgal
    Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭annoyedgal


    Actually incredulous that some posters wouldn't fully inform themselves before jumping on the nearest bandwagon for yet another teacher bashing oppoutunity.
    The ASTI are protecting their members from inevitable legal challenges which could financially ruin the teachers involved.
    Clearly this issue will be resolved and the ASTI have shown they are absolutely willing to engage in predictive grading which will happen once this is resolved.
    As another poster said I'm embarrassed for some posters here with the comments they have posted. Read more than the headline people!


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    #2334
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    annoyedgal wrote: »
    Actually incredulous that some posters wouldn't fully inform themselves before jumping on the nearest bandwagon for yet another teacher bashing oppoutunity.
    The ASTI are protecting their members from inevitable legal challenges which could financially ruin the teachers involved.
    Clearly this issue will be resolved and the ASTI have shown they are absolutely willing to engage in predictive grading which will happen once this is resolved.
    As another poster said I'm embarrassed for some posters here with the comments they have posted. Read more than the headline people!

    I'm also imaging that some people just saw the headline on the 9 o'clock news last night and jumped straight on boards to give out. The actual segment gave further information but the actual headline that they led with was pure tabloid nonsense. Whatever producer put that together was an idiot.


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    #2335
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    mammy and daddy can't/won't accept the result.

    Sorry but I see this type of wording used over and over and it gets on my nerves. Imo it is the duty of "mammies & daddies" to do their very best for their children and that sometimes involves taking a matter as far as they feel it needs to go. That girl last year that sued and got her situation resolved in her favour happened because her "mammy and daddy" didn't roll over. And can I just say I have teachers in my own family, as in laws and as friends and believe you me as "mammies and daddies" themselves, no one is as all over it and quicker to move heaven and earth to get their children sorted. I don't think for one minute that teachers should be legally liable in this situation but neither do I like this scorn for parents being parents.


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    #2336
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Sorry but I see this type of wording used over and over and it gets on my nerves. Imo it is the duty of "mammies & daddies" to do their very best for their children and that sometimes involves taking a matter as far as they feel it needs to go. That girl last year that sued and got her situation resolved in her favour happened because her "mammy and daddy" didn't roll over. And can I just say I have teachers in my own family, as in laws and as friends and believe you me as "mammies and daddies" themselves, no one is as all over it and quicker to move heaven and earth to get their children sorted. I don't think for one minute that teachers should be legally liable in this situation but neither do I like this scorn for parents being parents.

    Ohh I agree with the majority of what you say, can't blame parents for wanting the best for their child. I'm more so referring to the parents who aren't realistic about their childs ability when it comes to exams or just their academic ability overall. I was talking to a friend of a friend recently and they were saying that they have a child in HL french who they would prefer and recommend to take ordinary level. However the childs mother has paid out a fortune on grinds to try and bring the childs level up but it just isn't there and they won't accept the viewpoint of the actual teacher because the grinds person says they can get a good HL result. Grinds person has been laughing all the way to bank while the child will likely get a very poor result and wasted time on it.


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    #2337
    Higgins5473
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Higgins5473


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Sorry but I see this type of wording used over and over and it gets on my nerves. Imo it is the duty of "mammies & daddies" to do their very best for their children and that sometimes involves taking a matter as far as they feel it needs to go. That girl last year that sued and got her situation resolved in her favour happened because her "mammy and daddy" didn't roll over. And can I just say I have teachers in my own family, as in laws and as friends and believe you me as "mammies and daddies" themselves, no one is as all over it and quicker to move heaven and earth to get their children sorted. I don't think for one minute that teachers should be legally liable in this situation but neither do I like this scorn for parents being parents.

    You should probably change your username if you find that offensive.

    It’s used for those that are problematic parents, of which there are plenty. It’s the mammies and daddies of the students that haven’t done a tap of work that will shout the loudest about their child not getting what they deserved.


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    #2338
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ohh I agree with the majority of what you say, can't blame parents for wanting the best for their child. I'm more so referring to the parents who aren't realistic about their childs ability when it comes to exams or just their academic ability overall. I was talking to a friend of a friend recently and they were saying that they have a child in HL french who they would prefer and recommend to take ordinary level. However the childs mother has paid out a fortune on grinds to try and bring the childs level up but it just isn't there and they won't accept the viewpoint of the actual teacher because the grinds person says they can get a good HL result. Grinds person has been laughing all the way to bank while the child will likely get a very poor result and wasted time on it.

    Cool story. Here's another one. I had an English teacher who spent two years trying to push me down to ordinary level. I was a huge fan of contemporary abstract literature at the time and she didn't like my writing style I think. I didn't get grinds, but I did get a B1 in higher level English in the LC. She was at the school when we got our results and told me it must be a mistake as I couldn't possibly have gotten that grade.

    I wouldn't have wanted her grading my leaving cert, that's for damn sure.


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    #2339
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    sideswipe wrote: »
    Disgusting what the ASTI are doing by not accepting a state indemnity in relation to LC grading. These are emergency times and it needs everyone to pull together. Colm O’Rourke saying on tv they have a policy of opposition, imagine if our frontline workers took this kind of stance when so much was asked of them during this pandemic.

    You do know why Colm is so bitter against the unions right?


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    #2340
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    pwurple wrote: »
    Cool story. Here's another one. I had an English teacher who spent two years trying to push me down to ordinary level. I was a huge fan of contemporary abstract literature at the time and she didn't like my writing style I think. I didn't get grinds, but I did get a B1 in higher level English in the LC. She was at the school when we got our results and told me it must be a mistake as I couldn't possibly have gotten that grade.

    I wouldn't have wanted her grading my leaving cert, that's for damn sure.

    Sure everyone has a story. I was told to drop to pass level for LC tech drawing back in the day . Got an A1 in the end but that was because it just clicked for me in the end.

    Stories like these are why teachers don't want predicted/calculated grades.


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    #2341
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ohh I agree with the majority of what you say, can't blame parents for wanting the best for their child. I'm more so referring to the parents who aren't realistic about their childs ability when it comes to exams or just their academic ability overall. I was talking to a friend of a friend recently and they were saying that they have a child in HL french who they would prefer and recommend to take ordinary level. However the childs mother has paid out a fortune on grinds to try and bring the childs level up but it just isn't there and they won't accept the viewpoint of the actual teacher because the grinds person says they can get a good HL result. Grinds person has been laughing all the way to bank while the child will likely get a very poor result and wasted time on it.

    There's an example to prove every and any case though. Some students and their parents learn the hard way after going against teacher's advice and for some it goes the opposite way. At the end of the day teachers teach and parents parent and neither should be derided for doing their jobs.


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