Moderation of trans issue and terms

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503293#Comment_123503293

"mother of God. Can we not all just get along together? Can’t we just be friends?"

No, that will never happen.

"Also it demonstrates a significant amount of ignorance to suggest that you’re happy to call “John” by “Jane” if that’s what they want- but it’s not what they want it’s what they believe. They are not a man. They are a woman. That’s their belief. That’s how they feel."

Wants and beliefs are often one and the same. A drug addict who believes he is not an addict and doesn't need help will continue to want drugs.

Even if transgender "beliefs" are somehow better then any other belief in the world, still doesn't change the fact that you are imposing your beliefs onto someone else forcefully. Thought after the last century or so of 2 world wars would put people off that but apparantly not..

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503671#Comment_123503671

They are two completely different things.

One is a made up fairy tale that frankly makes no sense. Its not uncommon that children figure out santa isn't real before their parents tell them. All you are doing is lying to your kid until you either a) tell him its not real when he is 10 or so or b) he figures it out and one morning asks you is he real and you have to admit you have been lying for a decade.

So no, telling a transgender person they are not in fact a different gender to their biological one is not pointless and even if it is being an arsehole, too bad - maybe I and others are, we just don't care whether we are or not.

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503860#Comment_123503860

"It doesn't add to the topic. It isn't necessary. And even if you fundamentally believe that a trans man is a woman and that can never change, what benefit does it serve to point that out, other than making you feel a little bit good and making any trans person who reads this feel crap?"

So pointing out wrong information is wrong now, being right doesn't matter and someones feelings should trump facts? Imagine that arguement was used in defending anti-vaxxers..

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503955#Comment_123503955

I'm normally a fan of John Oliver but this one regarding sport was just wrong. Even one case is too much and his arguement was essentially "all this outrage and only 'x' amount of people competing".

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504354#Comment_123504354

Substituting AMAB instead of biological male might be your personal belief but it's not factually correct. Your sex is not assigned at birth it's observed, and it can be observed pre birth.

So when you talk about causing offence you don't seem to have a problem causing offence yourself.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504475#Comment_123504475

Why does it matter so much that instead of using language that might be kinder you want to use language that is known to be hurtful to a portion of society?

Yiure just looking for permission to cause hurt...

And people should recognise that this transgenderism debate has been ongoing for the last 10 or 15 years not because trans people only appeared then, but because the right wing media has turned it into an issue. It was no longer acceptable to imply that gay men were all sex offenders, so let's move onto trans women instead.

I'll repeat what I've said a few times. Boards default moderation point should be from a point of view of caring for minorities and avoiding dickish behaviour. It doesn't happen (every second AH thread seems to turn into a thread bashing one of either trans people, people on job seekers or travellers within a page or 2). In the olden days it would have been stamped out so quick. It's sad that's no longer the case.

Deedsie

I don't like the assumption people should have to change the language they have used all of their life. All the CIS, genderisms, PC terms designed not to offend (but often do) to me are all part of a culture war that I want no part in.

Expecting people to change their language and calling them ignorant or phobic or xism because the choose not to participate to me is completely unreasonable. I bare no ill will against any groups based on ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, nationality etc

I wish all trans people well, but there has to be more reasonable expectations on what way broader society are going to speak about these things.

To most people the pronouns thing is ludicrous and makes a mockery of your argument and movement in the first place.

Non gendering children at birth is one I have concerns the impact this will have in later life. Medical interventions of any kind impacting the physiology of a child before they have reached adulthood is also a concern.

Should a person with male biology be allowed to play camogie or box or compete physically with anyone with female biology? No of course not. Nonsense to even argue that point.

These are just my thoughts on some of these issues. Should I be banned from boards for holding these thoughts? I have been a member here for decades nearly at this point. I try to avoid these issues but when I saw this thread I wanted add my voice to the conversation.

plodder

Posters are asking what has changed in the last few years since (it is being suggested) that boards had a stricter moderation policy. Up to roughly 2021, the public understanding of the "transgender debate" (which is another one of the terms that some people want banned) was very different. Prior to 2021, "don't be a dick" probably did summarise the general attitude of reasonable people.

The consensus was that in sports, trans women just needed to suppress their testosterone levels, to be on a level playing field with natal women. Then along came scientists like Carole Hooven who published her book "T: The Story of Testosterone…" which overturned the consensus and changed public understanding of the issue. If that kind of stuff was too abstract for some, then we had the spectacle of Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard, as males competing (within the rules) against women, a situation that looked completely absurd and unfair to most people. Carole Hooven, who is an evolutionary biologist, worked at Harvard, and was hounded out of her job in 2023, for stating that while gender identity should be respected, sex is binary. That the number one university in the world allowed that to happen was pretty alarming to a lot of people.

The realisation (through the famous Denton report - and anyone unfamiliar should google it and read what it says about Ireland) that the campaign to pass the gender recognition act was an unprecedented act of subterfuge. Instead of building support over a period of years, as with abortion rights and gay rights, we ended up with the most liberal trans rights law in the world, and other than activists, nobody not even the legislators who passed it, knew what they were getting into.

So, where we are in 2025, is a very different place from 2021. Personally, I don't think "don't be a dick" cuts it anymore and my sense is that some moderators here think the same.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504569#Comment_123504569

That the campaign to pass the gender recognition act was an unprecedented act of subterfuge.

Really? The Gender Recognition Act was brought into law as a result of a High Court decision, where our court found that Irish law was incompatible with the ECHR. That was in 2007 and it took another 8 years for legislation to be out in place, so, sorry but your claim of subterfuge is nothing but a conspiracy theory.

suvigirl

Should people still call gay men 'faggots' in your opinion?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504555#Comment_123504555

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504605#Comment_123504605

Ah come on now, they're not saying that at all. Nobody's using that language except you.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504605#Comment_123504605

Is that really the height of the argument here? To me a moderator should pull the poster up for this as an old rule we had was repetitive posting was a breach of the boards charter.

How many times has this useless point been made in this very thread? No I don't think people should call anyone any type of name. I think people in general should mind their own business and stay out of other people's affairs.

However on a discussion forum boundaries are required.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504601#Comment_123504601

Needless to say, you are replying to something I never said - ie the initial impetus for changing the law. What I'm talking about is how the legislation got passed.

The document is called "ONLY ADULTS? GOOD PRACTICES IN LEGAL GENDER RECOGNITION FOR YOUTH" and was written by the law firm Dentons. Are you saying they made it up?

Media/Public Sentiment

The legislation went under the radar in Ireland because marriage equality was gaining the most focus. In a way, this was helpful according to the activists, because it meant that they were able to focus on persuading politicians that the change was necessary.

In the section: "GOOD PRACTICES FOR NGO ADVOCACY"

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform

In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

8. Avoid excessive press coverage and exposure

Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure.
:
Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise. In Ireland, activists have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue.

So, the politicians who were lobbied were only getting one side of the story, from the activists.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504622#Comment_123504622

Well no, people like my grandfather used the word "f*ggot" most of his life. It took lots of, "grandad, you can't say that anymore" for him to change his tune.

Was that fair on him? Suvigirl is bringing to attention that the poster they quoted said,

Expecting people to change their language and calling them ignorant or phobic or xism because the choose not to participate to me is completely unreasonable.

I think that's a ridiculous statement.

Phrases I've personally used in a derogatory manner but dont anymore because I wasn't aware it was so hurtful to that community:

Retard, handicap, spastic, knacker. I'm sure there's lots more, I can't think of any now . I'm sure we're all guilty of using words to hurt.

Language constantly evolves and if we have to alter our ways of speaking to lesser the hurt to a minority, what's the harm?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504622#Comment_123504622

Suggesting that language shouldn't change and people should be allowed say what they have always said, even if it offends someone?

plodder

Maybe this wasn't obvious at the time. But the idea of passing legislation "under the radar" and by "keeping press coverage to a minimum" surely you shouldn't be surprised if there is serious opposition after the fact?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504631#Comment_123504631

How many times has the useless point that posters want to post offensive language being posted?

Its a discussion about what language is tolerated, of course talk about language that was once used, but is no longer acceptable, is part of the discussion.

suvigirl

The legislation got passed the same way as every other piece of legislation in our country. It must be passed by the dail and the seanad and go through several debates and votes.

Any member of each house can do all the research they wish. Any member of the public with concerns about any proposed bills can bring them to any representative.

So yes, conspiracy theory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504653#Comment_123504653

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504678#Comment_123504678

In what way was the legislation passed "under the radar" compared to any other legislation?

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504605#Comment_123504605

Thats not a fair comparison. Even if a gay man is called that - he is still a gay man. The term itself does not refer to something else other then a gay man, its simply a different term meant to cause offense but the definition does not change.

Calling a transgender person by their sex/gender identity rather their biological gender is changing the definition of what you are calling them.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504354#Comment_123504354

So you expect people to align with the notion that there are no male or female babies born, rather babies are born with either a penis or a vagina and they then decide what gender they are at some point.

You people preach mental health above all yet are happy to ignore a million years of evolution and biology and add confusion and doubt to children so you dont offend what is only a handful of people that believe they are the opposite sex.

You are a dangerous individual, I'm relieved to see that most right thinking people disagree with your bizarre indoctrination methods.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504797#Comment_123504797

Honestly mate, considering you think it's fine to call people with mental health issues, "mentalists", I'd get off that high horse of yours before you fall.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504744#Comment_123504744

The term itself does not refer to something else other then a gay man

Unless you're in Coventry, where it's a dish available at a pub as I found out last week

Or also a collection of sticks for the fire, I believe.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503727#Comment_123503727

So you can only care about things you have experienced personally? I didn't hear that sentiment expressed about gay rights though. Bit odd that?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504797#Comment_123504797

For the mods. This is an example of what I think is language that should not be tolerated on this website. Dismissing transgenderism (even though it has existed throughout history) and calling somebody dangerous as a result. Is that acceptable? This is the same poster who refers to people as mentalists.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504653#Comment_123504653

So, the politicians who were lobbied were only getting one side of the story, from the activists.

They weren’t though, because they were well aware of the remonstrations from the Judge in Lydia Foy’s case some ten years earlier that made them aware that they had to introduce legislation to recognise people who are transgender -

On 19 October 2007, the court found Ireland in violation of the European Convention on Human Rights, and decided to issue the first declaration of incompatibility between Irish and European law. According to Justice Liam McKechnie, provisions of Article 8 of the Convention protecting Foy's right to respect for private life had been violated when the State failed "to provide for 'meaningful recognition' of her female identity". He also expressed frustration at the Irish government's failure to take any steps to improve the position of transsexuals following his previous judgment in 2002.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

On the idea that Boards has changed in the last four years based upon the idea that a professor from Harvard published a book that very few people will have read being a motivating factor in changing public attitudes towards people who are transgender, well that’s just nonsense. It had no influence whatsoever on Boards abandoning it’s stated position of inclusion and a decree from Admins that people should refer to people who are transgender by their preferred pronouns, and if people couldn’t bring themselves to do that, as a compromise they could use ‘they/them’.

What’s changed is that even that itself was too little, too late to stem the tide of people who were just abandoning the site because it had become a free-for-all in terms of permitting abuse and uncivil conduct perpetrated by posters who complained that they weren’t being treated fairly when they received infractions for their behaviour. Boards at the time was also being abandoned by advertisers faster than they abandoned Twitter because they didn’t want their brand associated with the kind of content that became permitted on Boards.

Before then, say from 2000 to 2020, there had been posters on Boards who were transgender and there was nobody pointing out that they weren’t permitted to use the bathroom they wanted to use, or pointing out that they shouldn’t force their beliefs on other people, or that Irish society wasn’t ready for them or any of the rest of that crap. To suggest that the passing of the Gender Recognition Act by the Legislature was due to pressure from transgender rights activists is just untrue, it was simply because it had been delayed for as long as politicians could hold off, until they could hold off no longer, and they wanted to avoid making the same mistakes as had been made when the UK Legislature had passed the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, a decade earlier than Ireland.

The sports related thread in CA was started by a poster who has contributed massively to Boards as both an ordinary member and a Moderator, has been instrumental in discussions on Boards about the Marriage Equality Referendum and has raised a son with her partner who did radio interviews at the time to dispel many of the myths and inform the general public that the marriage equality referendum was simply recognising what was already a fact of life for a minority in Ireland, in order to ensure they and their families had the same legal protections and equal status as heterosexual couples and their families (because in Irish law, the Family is founded upon the institution of Marriage). They were also a hell of a rugby player, having played at the highest levels in the sport, and if that wasn’t an exhaustive enough list of achievements, they are also a damn fine historian. I’d sooner be listening to them, than someone who has taken it upon themselves to tell them what they couldn’t do!

Instead of highlighting the achievements of ‘biological females’ who are transgender, the discussion became centred around posting anecdotes about ‘biological males’ who are transgender, ‘biological males’ who aren’t transgender who are a threat to women’s sports and women’s ‘sex-based’ rights, and anyone with a difference of opinion to the majority was quickly dealt with by being hounded upon until they relented and exited the discussion, and you’re talking about some professor in Harvard who gave an interview on Fox News stating there are only two genders as being the catalyst for a change in public opinion in Irish society? I figure you wouldn’t be saying it if you didn’t at least expect people to believe it, cos what would be the point in that?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504744#Comment_123504744

that’s not entirely true- **** is actually a bundle of sticks. The word is used as a derogatory term when in the context of speaking about gay people.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504744#Comment_123504744

What is biological gender?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504305#Comment_123504305

Over on the TW in female prisons thread that gave rise to this, we were told that "biological male" was indeed offensive (for a biological male).

Moreover, high profile trans women such as India Willoughby claim that they are now biologically female (the logic basically being that everything a human being does is biological, as that only means "alive").

So although TIM was invented by gender critical people, I'm not sure that that means it was intended to be offensive. It may simply mean that they felt a need to be completely clear about what they were trying to say, given how words like biological were being used to muddy the waters. That some people found that offensive is a separate issue.

However, in a spirit of compromise, would natal male/female do?

(I don't accept "assigned" male/female at birth as it's inaccurate. I knew the sex of two of my children several months before they were born, so their sex wasn't "assigned" by anyone, it was observed and recorded. In one case at birth, in the others, in utero. And the one whose sex I learned only when he was born did not go through a different procedure to the others. Like them, his sex is in his chromosomes, right from the start - it just isn't visible until 3 or 4 months gestation.)

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504810#Comment_123504810

why are you getting so offended on other people’s behalf?

I have a plethora of mental health difficulties. Their comment means nothing to me. It means nothing to most people. You’re just looking for stuff to be outraged over.