Did it ever make sense to move from an old combustion car to a new EV

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: EV Depreciation 2023.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514452#Comment_121514452

That's the Irish mentality though, a lot have no problem spending a fortune to save a little. The amount of diesels bought after 2008 was madness.

Isn't it the same with EV's though, people spending a years salary for an ID3 etc for the night rate electricity to save €20 a week on fuel. Now looking at €200 a week in depreciation

Dont get me wrong, if you can afford a new car, buy a new car, but buying a new car to save €20-30 a week on diesel/petrol as your motive is madness, you dont buy a new car to save money, better off shopping in Lidl/cut the takeaways etc 😉

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514547#Comment_121514547

Never buy a new car to save money.

Only consider an EV if your buying a new car either way.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514559#Comment_121514559

That's not what posters here have been advising for the last few years, you'll save this much if you buy an EV etc, some even had the spreadsheets out, it's a new car for free.

They are all gone quiet now though 😂🤣

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514610#Comment_121514610

you are a very infrequent poster if you have been here for years....

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514610#Comment_121514610

Actually that’s incorrect.

Most posters would have stated you should never buy a new car to save money. I have never seen it tbh.

Maybe the advice over the last 3 years was to buy new because the cost was similar to second hand but in general it was never to buy new to save money.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514610#Comment_121514610

That and total cost of ownership,

I feel sorry for who listened,

Leaving that aside, can VW keep going with the price drop, do they have the margin to do so?

I believe Tesla could drop another bit and still make money

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514610#Comment_121514610

Any time anyone comes in talking about changing car because car costs X amount per week in diesel or servicing or tax or whatever, myself and others always say don't change car to save money, because you won't ,just say you want a new car and then the advice will come. Then it's a talk about EV v ICE

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514610#Comment_121514610

Nonsense, that was always new Ev vs new Ice.

staples7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514653#Comment_121514653

Agreed I think you maybe thinking of the cost of ownership, servicing, fuel etc.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516191#Comment_121516191

No no

Not true at all, gaslighting now sorry

Just look through the history, the first search I did for " Total Cost Of Ownership " as Kanusemme highlighted was the buzz word

Many many posters came here and asked the same question over and over and got the same reply as grummpypants posted in this thread

It went like this usually

" I'm spending 70e a week in diesel, I could cut that to 20e in an EV with home charging, should I buy an EV"

[QUOTE]MG has a 7 year warranty

So the saving on tax, insurance, diesel, maintenance could reasonably be around 5k each year.

The above is simple enough back of the envelope figures but it would suggest that if you swap the car pretty much pays for itself over the next 7 [/QUOTE]

Total Cost of Ownership - Diesel to EV. — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

[QUOTE Grumpypants]The current used market is a bit skewed and prices are a bit higher than normal, so no guarantee of future price. Because the MG is so new there is no long term data to use to predict devaluation, but the old MG has really held its value. In the UK, cars under a year old are being offered the full purchase price to trade it in to the new one.

The new MG has been given a bump in the FMV that PCP give too. So that is generally a good sign that they expect the car to hold its value. EVs do hold a little better than petrol or diesel too. So you are better off getting into a new EV over a new petrol or diesel.

I've just put a deposit on that new MG ZS you are looking at, for the spec on it and the price nothing comes close.

It was €36.5k on the road (that is the car and all the dealer charges etc).

The next cost is the charge point. MG will give you a free charge point box (but not installed). They have installers they recommend and you can claim back €600 in a grant so that installation shouldn't cost you anything extra.

Tax is €120 for an EV. I think the Passat is 200 or 270? So a little extra saving there moving forward.

Final cost is insurance. This should drop, moving from a 12 year old car to a new one with loads of safety features like automatically braking if a pedestrian steps in front of you and MG Pilot to keep you in lane and at the same speed of the car in front on motor ways, it even reads road signs and doesn't let you speed (if that setting is turned on) should net you a lower premium. When I moved from my 2009 A4 it dropped from €700 to the minimum premium of €280. So maybe there is another few hundred of a saving but that one is a bit more individual.

So total initial outlay (cost of car, tax and insurance) is about €37k.

Then the savings start recouping that.

If the Passat does on average 25miles per gallon. And a gallon of diesel is €7.50 (4.5 litres X €1.65)

The ZS does 3.5miles per KW. So it will use 7.15kw to do 25 miles. Even at the most expensive electricity rate of 25cent a KW. You are still looking at just under €1.80 to do the same 25 miles.

If you get on a normal introduction discount rate that could drop to €1.20 or even 0.80 on night rates.

Every 25miles you drive it's almost a fiver in your pocket. Or over your 400km round trip it's €50 saved. If you do that once a week then €50 a week for a year is €2600. And that is just on your one 400km round trip. If you take in all your other day to day driving then that could start heading toward the €3500-€4000 ball park.

2010 Passat needs an annual NCT, New car won't. The passat is also in the age range where maintenance could be in the high hundreds to 1k a year.

MG has a 7 year warranty. So you just need the service.

So the saving on tax, insurance, diesel, maintenance could reasonably be around 5k each year.

The above is simple enough back of the envelope figures but it would suggest that if you swap the car pretty much pays for itself over the next 7 years.[/QUOTE]

Henry Ford III

Passat diesel will do 50+mpg

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517134#Comment_121517134

An EV is a no brainer if you do significant annual mileage and can charge at home on night rate but an MG ZS and a VW Passat aren’t really comparable vehicles. A VW ID.4 or even an ID.7 would be more comparable than the MG.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517220#Comment_121517220

How is it a no brainer to lose €200-€300 a week in depreciation?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517252#Comment_121517252

Will a new petrol car not also loose that same €2-300 per week in their first year?

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517258#Comment_121517258

Not if you keep your old Passat

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517293#Comment_121517293

That’s a different argument. No need to sell a car to buy a new car to save money.

Of someone’s buying a car, irrespective of ice or EV, then that’s when you do the sums.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517300#Comment_121517300

Sure that's what I posted above, did you read the reply the poster got?

He asked a question of should I buy an EV and sell the old Passat and was told yes, free car, 50e a week fuel saving, 10e a week tax, 20e servicing etc etc

You didn't see all those threads?

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517134#Comment_121517134

Are you taking the piss?

The first reply on that thread is this "Do you have any monthly repayments on the Passat?

If not and you own it outright you would have to factor in the monthly payments on the cost of paying back the EV which will probably wipe out any fuel savings etc.

However if you are buying a new car/nearly new you’ll have repayments anyway?

Unless you are buying in cash?"

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517408#Comment_121517408

Grumpypants with the calculations a few replies down is the reply I saw most for a time

Keep your current petrol or diesel car was usually met with distain

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517434#Comment_121517434

Look, I'm sure you'll find multiple one off posters saying something stupid like that, but the vast majority here would never advise buying a new Ev or Ice to save money, and to be fair the consensus on that thread was that buying a new Ev versus keeping the Passat won't save money.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514627#Comment_121514627

Joined the Site on 18th December. Yeah, I’m here years 😂😂

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517355#Comment_121517355

That thread recommended keeping the Passat by my reading.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517434#Comment_121517434

its all in your head, in nearly all cases keeping an old car with no monthly repayments is cheaper than buying new, be that EV or ICE, i doubt anyone argued otherwise.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517565#Comment_121517565

From a few, but that's a recency bias, by last year word was out.

Go back to 2018-2020 threads when the VW ID range hype was high and pre war and you get lots of posters in favour of spending big to save big.

Unkel, Kcross, BK, ELM327, Soarer, read those posts

"300km per week commuting and presumably another 100-150km in the evenings and at the weekend?

So, about 400km/wk and lets assume 50 weeks/yr so about 20k km's per year. Is that about right for you?

You are well within the range of the current Leaf (50-60km per day) all year round, so you should be able to do all that driving on your home charger.

Distance: 20k km's

Electricity costs: 7c/kWh (assumes you get night rate which is free to get)

Petrol cost: €1.34/l

Focus l/100 km: 7l/100km (is that accurate?)

Leaf: 16kWh/100km (assuming your commute is not all motorway)

Mash all those together gives you fuel costs as follows:

Focus: €1876

Leaf: €224"

Worth getting a EV for this commute? — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Is an electric an option — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

AMKC

My uncle traded in a 2009 Ford Mondeo that I am quiet sure he owned as he had it from new for a 231 Brand new MG4. Loves the MG4.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517645#Comment_121517645

He's gonna love it long time 🤣

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517583#Comment_121517583

im not sure what you are trying to prove, posts above again are clearly illustrating a fuel cost saving?

Furze99

A factor that will become more relevant in time is the Bata Mór / Big Stick that government will increasingly wield to 'persuade' motorists to decommission their ICE vehicles and oblige them to put their money in EVs. Whether VAT, car tax or carbon & excise taxes on fuel, fully expect them to beat people over the head. What will slow this down/ hold it back is if large numbers keep their petrol/ diesel cars for the moment, as you can't pee off the electorate too much. But once a critical mass is reached, I'd expect the Bata Mór to be wielded on the obstinate motorists left!

Take the new proposed bill on reducing speed limits across the board on the grounds of road safety... the cold eye would say this is as much to do with EV strategy, as slowing speeds will make EV batteries last longer and more attractive. Devious lot are this crowd!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517645#Comment_121517645

Doubly blessed.

He had an old car that probably didn't owe him anything and the funds to buy a new one.

However most people don't keep a new car for 14 years and are on a treadmill of trying to balance trade in values and availability of finance.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517686#Comment_121517686

And disregarding the massive depreciation we are now seeing.

Did you see the posters totting up the fuel savings advising posters, that a 43k EV might be worth 18k after less than 2 years?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517701#Comment_121517701

a 43k new car might be worth 18k after 2 years, youd hope anyone buying a new car would be aware of depreciation.... EV or otherwise.

Redfox25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517694#Comment_121517694

You dropped your tinfoil hat Furze99.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517709#Comment_121517709

Gaslighting now.

Why even talk about fuel saving then if everyone should know a new car is gonna lose 20k+ in 2 years

Unkel wrote ( he didn't even know what year car he had at this point, gave his advice anyway lol )

"People who do a daily 160km commute will save a fortune in an EV. His weekly 130 in diesel will go down to 20 in electricity"

No talk of deprecation here

Is an electric an option - Page 2 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514851#Comment_121514851

"Leaving that aside, can VW keep going with the price drop, do they have the margin to do so? I believe Tesla could drop another bit and still make money"

This is where the Chinese EVs coming in here now have the advantage and have alot of leg room to drop there prices significantly.

I posted here a while back ( with links ) .. this Funky Cat small EV is currently €29K here ( starting / basic price ). Same car in China is €14k

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517701#Comment_121517701

deprecation is only really affecting those who bought in the last year when prices were inflated.

people who are buying now are getting the car cheaper ( which is what’s driving depreciation) and people who bought in pre 2023. For their cars before the price increased.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517699#Comment_121517699

Yeah that's the way it should be.

Keep that MG for 14 years as well.

oinkely

Did it ever make sense to move from an old ICE to a new EV - probably not.

But then it's never really made much sense to buy a new car for anyone ever!

Depreciation has always been there for new cars, the 'driving it off the forecourt tax' as my dad always called it, and my grandad, and he is long dead! So in the olden days changing a used car for any new car was the same value proposition. It was going to cost you - and probably quite handsomely.

There's lots of man-maths done to justify new car purchases, and lots of ways to come to the conclusion that it is a worthwhile endeavor. But in reality, in all but a few rare exceptions, buying a new car is gong to cost you in depreciation. In fact, buying almost any car is going to cost you in depreciation. They are almost exclusively a depreciating asset (or liability if you get unlucky!).

It's just a case of buying what you can afford and accepting that it will cost you money to own and will be worth a lot less when you come to part with it.

In some cases it makes more sense to buy an EV than an ICE as the weekly running costs are considerably less and you could be sitting in a nicer/newer vehicle for a similar outlay per week when all running costs were taken into account (fuel, servicing, loan repayments). For a while the depreciation on EVs was very low, but that is over now it seems with more normal depreciation kicking back in, maybe a bit higher than normal due to the elevated new prices over the last few years and the constraints on supply.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517751#Comment_121517751

im not sure you know what gaslighting means,

unless you can point to someone who said dont worry there will be no depreciation on your brand new car you are talking rubbish.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517694#Comment_121517694

As a general principle, it's often amusingly astute to lean in the opposite direction of whatever the government is enthusiastically endorsing😉

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517733#Comment_121517733

And we'll all be needing them...

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517783#Comment_121517783

thats it really, what people were doing is saying ok i can get a new car, itll cost me 500 a month in repayments, if im saving 300 a month on fuel then the net cost is 200,

thats just the usual man maths though.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517805#Comment_121517805

That was rare though, very few people asked should I get a brand new petrol Golf or brand new ID3.

The most common post was I have a 5-10 year old Passat or the like, its getting old, repairs are starting to creep in, its costing me €60 a week in diesel, I have a driveway.

Cue, go buy a new EV.

You really didn't see those threads?

aidanodr

I note many here are saying BUYING a new car and in some cases owning a new car. Is this the case these days? In essense you are paying for a rolling SUBSCRIPTION via the most popular way to "purchase" a car being PCP. So you never actually own the car + using that car comes with strict terms and conditions that dictate its future PCP value when rolling it over in 3 years.

i would think all this would also need to be in the mix when calculating the "savings"

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517830#Comment_121517830

they were asking in a thread about EVs, obviously it was an EV they were interested in, im sure people have also moved from old ICE to new ICE, i would expect in all scenarios that these people expected their new cars to depreciate.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517694#Comment_121517694

Diesels will be available to buy new till 2030, a diesel will be still running long past that

The Irish government has zero say over what cars the manufacturers make and push, the push from manufacturers has come in the last few years because they could make crazy margins on electric cars and people had no problem paying it.

Reducing speed limits has been going on in different ways since cars first came on the road. You might be surprised but a combustion car also performs a lot better at lower speeds.

Diesel and petrol will be gone off the roads if the manufacturers decide to stop making them, not a single word an irish government person says will change that.

MrMusician18

I was always highly skeptical of that total cost of ownership argument that was prevalent here for ages, particularly in the original Hyundai Ionic era. It was only ever true when the market was not functioning properly and certainly isn't true now. People can tend to only look at the positives of their decision, I think to affirm that they were correct.

Old diesel has always been the king of economy and will remain so while EV fast charging remains expensive and range relatively limited.

I moved from old diesel to nearly new EV and the running costs savings that were often touted here have not materialised. Fuelling is, on average, half the cost of diesel and we haven't had need to service it yet. If it were ICE within a few months it would be over halfway to it's interval, whereas it's over a year and a half from it as an EV. Tyres are significantly more expensive and the extra over for them over ICE is pretty much is the cost of a service.

I decided to go EV for a number of reasons: 1. the diesel was getting on and a bill in excess of the cars value had to be coming soon - so the car had to be changed. 2. The EV driving experience is much nicer. 3. The market I believed was shifting to electric and there is a risk of having a stranded asset it 2-3 years time. I liked the idea of a day to day lower running cost too - I did think it would be significantly lower than it is though.

Many of those reasons remain valid of course, but I do wonder if the choice I've made will result in me ending up with the stranded asset now. I have budgeted for a further 50% depreciation but after VW have cut their prices I think that might be optimistic, will anyone pay €16k for a five year old ID4? Used 5yo Tiguans go for much more today and they start at a similar price point to ID4.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517874#Comment_121517874

why are tyres much more expensive? is it just that you have bigger wheels or is it something else?

ELM327

New ICE vs New EV will always save you money.

New EV vs Bangernomics ICE will not always. It did for me but I was doing 50k+ a year and the leaf I had at the time made it cheaper than doing the miles in a bangernomics diesel ran on agri and kero mix!

New ICE vs Used EV will save you money in the EV.

Used ICE vs New EV - this is where you may or may not save. Again, if you don't drive much and you buy a 5k prius vs a 50k BZ4X or something, it will take a long ass time if ever to recover the 45k delta.

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517901#Comment_121517901

Weight apparently. They are a bit dearer also I think. seems one gets less than a year in some cases ..

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517901#Comment_121517901

Big wheels and heavier weight mean they are more expensive.

Because of the weight you need to have them inflated to a significantly higher pressure and if you are not on top of that they wear unevenly. The high torque off the line, while fun, is also hard on the tyres too.