Did it ever make sense to move from an old combustion car to a new EV

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522704#Comment_121522704

Our G30 520d averages around 30mpg for city runs. It only opens up on long motorway runs. The F10 520d is under 30 mpg for similar city runs.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521765#Comment_121521765

That was very much our thinking when we went from a 2007 Grande Punto to a 2017 Ioniq. We were spending around €200 a month on fuel which became €20 a month on electricity thanks to the low night rates between '17 and '21. We'd started to look at a replacement car and had budgeted around €350 for loan payments. Switching to the Ioniq we were able to afford €550 a month payment thanks to the fuel savings.

We were switching the car because we'd had two years in a row with very high maintenance bills, we had a suspension coil break, the alternator crack. It always seemed like we'd have another six months then something bad enough to be fixable but still costly would go wrong with it.

I've always thought there's two ways to look at how you run a car, you can treat it like a financial asset and worry about depreciation costs, counting the interest on the finance as a cost or you can just treat your loan payment like a monthly cost. For the Ioniq we cared more about the monthly cost of running it than we did any future depreciation. Purely on running costs we were looking at the Ioniq at €360 (tax and electricity) per year vs the Punto's €2,800 (tax and petrol). The €2,400 a year difference went a long way towards paying the loan costs. The complete removal of unplanned maintenance on the Punto was the real goal, who knows we may have been lucky and not had to pay so much to keep it going. Our Ioniq had a couple of issues but they were all covered by Hyundai's 5 year warranty.

The Ioniq was traded in by my ex-wife after 5 years, I think she got around €18k for it, a €8k loss on depreciation vs €12k saved on running costs. The interest on the finance probably means it was break even between the two. Our Ioniq was bought at a very unique time where there was a decent value EV for sale and cheap night rates were still very common. As the number of EVs available new has increased manufacturers have sought to capture some of the savings in running costs by increasing the cost of new vehicles.

The math is going to be very different comparing an ID.3 sold today to an Ioniq or Leaf sold in 2017/18.

fricatus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521630#Comment_121521630

We actually used the Ioniq as our primary car because it was much nicer and way cheaper to drive than the Toyota. Range was about 220 km, but dropped to about 150-170 km at motorway speeds. Still I drove it all over Ireland, England and Wales, including to Sheffield from the ferry at Pembroke one day - just two 25-minute stops at motorway services, and we would regularly take it from Waterford to Dublin and back (yes we'd have to charge but that was fine). We also took it on holiday to France one year. Once again, no problem with a bit of planning. I note your choice of words "an EV that can't go more than 150km at motorway speed" and I'm tempted to be a smart-ass and answer "you do know you can charge it again afterwards, right?". And I think that shows something in people's mindset - they think the range of an EV is their effective travel limit for the day, because they assume that chargers don't exist, or will always be broken/occupied/ICEd etc. However if you download the "ecar connect" app and look at just the ESB the chargers across the country, you will see many more green (available) than blue (in use) or red (unavailable) at pretty much any time you look. Sure it's not as p155-easy as going and getting petrol, but it's nowhere near as difficult as people think it will be. And the wait is nothing. By the time you go to the toilet and grab a coffee, it's almost done - then you have 5 minutes to scroll through Facebook or Tinder or Grindr or whatever, before getting going again.

As for the Ioniq figure of €5,844, I should have pointed out that that was a yearly figure (as are all the other figures). Of course it was only that for 5 years. It's paid off now 😁

daheff

I bought a Kia nitro phev back in 19.

I was spending about 350eur a month on petrol. With a phev I could charge for free in work.

PCP worked out at 320eur a month (plus 15k balloon payment).

For me it literally was a free upgrade. Savings in fuel more than paid for the PCP. The balloon payment was what I was paying in petrol over the same period. So I was not out of pocket and had a newer, and better spec car.

New EV cars today have been priced obscenely. Skeptic in me would say it's priced off petrol/diesel prices so that car costs are roughly even after 3 years (assuming you drive circa 30k a year).

ID 4 on release could be gotten for about 38k (if you could have found one). Today you are looking at about 55k for one (I do think it's a bigger battery spec though today).

Montage of Feck

Building bigger and heavier ev's to give them more range is really a bit silly and pricing them out of the market for a lot of people. If you need range get a diesel, but if all your doing is driving from home to work get a small ev, again like the previous diesel hysteria it should be a case of horses for courses rather than getting cheap tax.

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522704#Comment_121522704

I've a 2016 Octavia 110bhp TDI, long term ave is 56mpg. That's mostly short journeys (work 20km round trip.) and it's Winter. In Summer it's 60+. Fantastic car and no worries about the battery packing up or range anxiety.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533935#Comment_121533935

Whose battery packed up ? Also driving an ev versus an unrefined low powered 4 pot diesel is night and day .

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533942#Comment_121533942

Well I bought it this year and if I was to buy an ID3 in a few years and it was 7 years old I'd be nervous of the possibility of replacing a battery out of warranty and the cost.

I personally prefer a manual than an auto and is very roomy and great boot versatility. It's plenty refined for me tnks.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533872#Comment_121533872

Treating the EVs range as its daily limit is fairly common I think especially with ICE drivers.

You often find a mindset of "the journey can't be done AT ALL" if you've to charge the car for 30 mins in order to complete the trip.

Hopefully as EVs continue to evolve both the cars and chargers then that will change.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533951#Comment_121533951

i can understand someone preferring a manual sports car, I don’t get a preference for manual in a standard diesel mile muncher personally.

do you worry about replacing the engine in your Skoda ?

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534127#Comment_121534127

We're all different, ones man food and all that.

Not worried about replacing engine as they are fairly reliable and not unrealisticly expensive. Plenty available at breakers yard.

Battery replacement I believe is very expensive.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534179#Comment_121534179

what has you thinking batteries are unreliable? Is replacing an engine a diy job for you ? There is a lot less to go wrong in an ev you realise ?

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521663#Comment_121521663

You save a minimum €2,400 in fuel costs / year, so €30,000 over 12.5 years - was this the cost of your ID3?

Why not compare the purchase cost of your ID3 + fuel over the life - residual value with the purchase cost of the ICE + fuel - residual value. Is it reasonable to assume insurance / repair costs are or will be the same when minor tips lead to EVs being written off? What will the range of the ID3 be in 3, 5, 10 years - i.e. will it remain practicable for you?

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534228#Comment_121534228

What's with the aggression, can't answer about battery reliability or range after 8 years.

Perhaps in time to come it will be cheaper to replace car battery but at the moment its not.

I would not rule out an EV but I'd have to go new or no more than 2 year old. I'll hold off for another few years defo.

With 78k km on my 2016 Octy and a new timing belt fitted as part of the deal, I should have no worries for a few years at least hopefully.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534527#Comment_121534527

I have a 10 year old Leaf (7 in my ownership). Battery health is at about 70% with over 100k on the clock. It's an old, outdated battery, but I'd say that's pretty reliable. The car has had tyres replaced a couple of times. Pollen filter once. Wiper blades twice. Brake fluid flush once. Original pads still on it. I'm not worried about the battery clapping out. I'd bet the battery will outlast the octy.

Individual cells and pouches can be replaced now. Its not game over when there is a battery issue. Entire battery pack replacement is rare. Battery range upgrades is also possible.

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534668#Comment_121534668

Fairplay that's good news alright, I have a diesel Bora parked up in garage, drove it for 18.5 yrs with no issues bar belt replacements, tyres and other consumables. The only reason I parked it up is that I wanted a change.

A simply unbeakable car and finger crossed the Octy will last well beyond 10yrs. BTW sold 2012 Octy to a friend and is going great not a bother.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534527#Comment_121534527

Aggression? I asked you a few questions to try and figure out where you are coming from.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534454#Comment_121534454

Why does a minor tip lead to evs being written off?

In my experience over the last 5 years ev insurance on quite powerful cars 330-400 bhp has been incredibly low, I.e. Under 400 euro annually and I'm not the only one.

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534809#Comment_121534809

I've answered them, the 4 pot is plenty refined for me.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534798#Comment_121534798

Yeah, it's holding up very well. That's only 1 example too. I sold my now 12 year old Leaf to my FIL last year with with 100k+ and battery is 65-70%. I needed a longer range vehicle for a new job. Same story on their other 9.5 year old Leaf with 70% or more. They all did 80km return journey last night going to a family Xmas party.

There are some examples of older Leafs with higher degradation than what I have personal experience of. The ones with such degradation are generally the ones which regularly used the rapid chargers and are by and large the early 2013 and older batteries, which were a crappy chemistry. If home charging was done 99% of the time, these cars are still very useable for anyone not needing to commute long distances.

My main driver is a 222 Model 3 and I would expect the LFP batteries to outlast the car by a long way.

Anyway, Happy Christmas folks.

alan partridge aha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534913#Comment_121534913

Ya Happy Christmas have a nice one

FaaF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521760#Comment_121521760

The VRT on a RWD Model 3 is €1,349 and the EV grant is €3,500 so the tax isn't as big an issue as many may believe.

Obviously, like any new private car, there is also VAT - but that's not lost money. A portion of the value a car will retain is down to the VAT someone would have to pay if they bought new.

Buddy Bubs

Just running my own numbers here to see if it makes sense or not. I'll try to be unbiased and compare my old ICE which I loved to my current EV. Both financially and non financially. While I'm waiting for me dinner!

I bought a 2014 Audi a6 in 2018, selling it privately in 2022 for 17.5k to fund a cupra born. It was just fully paid off but was starting to give me hassle. Not much, but the potential is always there.

The born was 42k so 25k cash on top of the deposit for the Audi. It's now worth about 25k if I was to sell it. It was bought up front and I estimate will be worth 15k in 3 years (18 more months) which is about as long as I'd keep anything as I have a wandering eye.

The Audi was using a tank of fuel at about 120 euro a tank every 2 weeks. It was 280 to tax. I'd put an estimated figure of 1000 a year to service and repair. So that's about 4300 a year to run the Audi assuming nothing big went wrong.

The Born costs about 900 a year in electricity based on my usage which is a saving of about 2000 a year. Tax is 120 and servicing should be zero. I'm assuming tyres and insurance costs the same as the Audi.

So running costs are 1000 compared to 4300 or saving of 3.3k a year or 10k over 3 years until paid off

I reckon the Audi would have halved in value in 3 more years or 9k.

So, TCO for the born over 3 years will be

27k depreciation

3k electricity and tax

TCO keeping the Audi

9k depreciation

13k diesel, tax, repairs and maintenance

So I'm guessing 30k cost over 3 years for the born v 22k for the Audi (man maths I know)

Add finance costs if needed, I didn't have any.

Now, for some non financial aspects

Pros for the Born

Have newer car with more tech and features. Probably safer but I'm not sure. Is a car I'd be happy to keep after 3 more years. It will be the missus long term car which we couldn't do with an 11 year old Audi with 200k kms in 2025. Better to drive, in my opinion, in a sporty drive kind of way. Smaller boot but the hatchback is way better than a saloon so much that I'd always look for hatch again.

Pros for the Audi

Was a much more impressive car in both exterior and exterior. More comfortable seats. Had the range to do whatever wanted on motorway without stops. Probably felt better at 120kmph+ on the motorway, I regularly drive it at 130/140 which I know is illegal but I wouldn't do this in the born for both range reasons and it's just not a high speed cruiser like the Audi was.

Now, I know I overpaid for the cupra as prices are about 5k less now and 0% finance is available. At those prices and keeping 15k residuals after 3 years, the born would close the gap on cost between keeping older ICE or moving to EV.

Now, I have to somehow justify buying a used Etron GT, I can't see the financials working well for me even with my man maths but sometimes it doesn't have to make sense!

Flinty997

"...Did it ever make sense to move from an old combustion car to a new EV..."

The problem with this statement is it also applies to ICE cars.

"...Does it ever make sense to move from an old Combustion car to a new Combustion car...."

It's the same arguments. Which is why the bangernomics thread exists.

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121534972#Comment_121534972

That's good to see and if I was to go shopping for an EV is good to know that the govt. is willing to knock a few quid off. Still not tempted though 🙂

maidhc

PHEVs are the best option for the present, not future, not past.

i traded a RAV4 PHEV for a new GR sport model of the same. Very modest deprecation, we rarely fill it with petrol, have the low rate for Energia for the commute, and can drive the length of the country without worrying about poxy charging.

i have had a lot of cars. The RAV PHEV is the closest I have come across to the “perfect” vehicle.

Flinty997

I like the flexibility of phev if I was doing more long distance on a regular basis. But I'd want one with a large battery.

But very few used ones, or at least I felt they were over priced. So you'd have to buy new, I also thought they were over priced also. No economy savings if it's overpriced to buy in the first place.

Buddy Bubs

We had a 530e and although we liked the car, it was running on petrol a lot though unless I plugged in twice a day.

A realistic 70km to 100km everyday range and I'd begin to consider one again if I really fancied the car. But I'd still be plugging in every day which is a bit of a pain. And I'd have an ICE engine and gearbox to maintain which would probably push me to make the decision to stay away from them.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121535609#Comment_121535609

I think the Toyota PHEV drivetrain is light years ahead of the bmw one though from an engineering stand point. certainly the real life range of the rav is enough for most commutes (c 40 miles of mixed rural urban and motorway driving)

On topic though I agree that buying a new car to save money is oxymoronic. I do think buying an ev was an unwise choice for a lot of people, it was a choice pushed too far to fast, and I think it will ultimately hinder ev uptake.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121535650#Comment_121535650

On what basis is the Toyota drive train light years ahead?