Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077523#Comment_122077523

and?

If governments colluded, should they be held to account?
Do you hold governments to higher account than paramilitaries?

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077512#Comment_122077512

Wrong again and again and again.

You simple insinuated The Irish Army trained the IRA. You are now unable to back this up so you're again engaging in lies, deceit and dishonesty.

• The Arms Crisis - nothing to do with Training the IRA in bomb making
• The Smithwick Tribunal - nothing to do with Training the IRA in bomb making
• Former members training in Libya - nothing to do with Training the IRA in bomb making

You also have to answer the question I originally asked  "Can you explain ALL of the reasons the pIRA military knowledge and expertise was far superior to the military knowledge of the loyalist paramilitaries? Was it at least partly because there was (a) greater transfer of knowledge about explosives between Irish army and pIRA than between British army and loyalists (b) more scope for training in certain areas with nod and a wink south of the border - which did happen - than north of the border?"

You didn't ask the question though - You stated it as fact yet cannot back it up so now are scrambling to have others disprove your idiotic ramblings.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062274#Comment_122062274

Here's your original post again (note it's not a question)

What is this 'opinion' based on? The same question asked of you since you posted it..

"Some would be of the opinion" you're lying again and you know it.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077523#Comment_122077523

Except that's not what's being discussed and you know it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077577#Comment_122077577

What exactly is your problem?

His sentence begins with "some would be of the opinion". That doesn't require him to prove what comes next, as you keep demanding. Plenty of people speculate about collusion:

https://mydup.com/news/failure-of-irish-government-to-investigate-pira-collusion-highlighted

If the collusion has never been investigated, we can only speculate as to its extent.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland-played-integral-role-in-supporting-ira-says-historian-988519

Some have gathered evidence. There is enough even in those two links that would support the other poster's statement.

Think of it a different way. If I were to say that most people are of the opinion that Gerry Adams was in the PIRA, and you asked me to prove it, I would laugh at you.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077648#Comment_122077648

"My problem" (besides my posts not being exciting enough for you) is that this poster has form for this kind of nonsense yet you're continuously happy to ride in like the white knight in defence.

"My problem" is also the context an origin of said "some are of the opinion" statement. It stemmed from your comrade being on the back foot but needing to introduce another disingenuous statement to hide their own misunderstanding. Again and again.

"My problem" is that the post was asked for any sort of verification; instead they reverted to type and retrospectively posted it as a question to be answered to their satisfaction by others so that they would get out of posting their basis (or lack of as we know). Otherwise it was to be accepted as fact. In what realm of discussion is that normal?

The entirely laughable thing about that orignal post from Francis MCM is that the reverse is in fact the truth - The knowledge of the IRA inadvertently 'trained' the Irish Army. A large part of their knowledge in relation to IED's, was learned from the IRA techniques.

Collusion is one thing; The passing of information was a concern. What they said is different. You know it but will engage in their defence as it serves your selective need to see NI as an opportunity to blame the IRA as the singular root cause of The Troubles.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077689#Comment_122077689

As I see it, you are essentially criticising and hounding a person for just having a different opinion to your own.

There are ridiculous opinions out there - people who believe the world is flat and posters who think that PIRA terrorists did not have a choice and are not responsible for their actions - but you can't stop people having such ridiculous opinions and you are better off countering those opinions with mockery than the tired, boring and repetitive pedantic nature of requiring proof in a nitpicking fashion.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077710#Comment_122077710

I'm asking a person to offer some basis for their opinion & insinuation; clearly not a difference of opinion. Instead, when asked to verify it, they try to make it something that has to be answered for them and to their satisfaction, otherwise they'll accept their nonsense as fact and continue to use it…..as we have seen that particular poster do time and time again. (your ok with that though)

There are ridiculous opinions out there - people who believe the world is flat and posters who think that PIRA terrorists did not have a choice and are not responsible for their actions - but you can't stop people having such ridiculous opinions and you are better off countering those opinions with mockery than the tired, boring and repetitive pedantic nature of requiring proof in a nitpicking fashion.

That's nice. Why not pull them up on their ridiculous opinions then? I'm sure they appreciate the (again) selective nature of who's post you deem worthy of criticising and having to mention the PIRA:

• (A) The idiotic incoherent ramblings of a continuously disingenuous poster or
• (B) A poster asking them for some sort of back up for their statements.

Nice to know my posts weren't too boring to reply to I suppose.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077721#Comment_122077721

Your posts are just tedious and boring now. The reality is that we know there was collusion on all sides. Given the numbers involved ( hundreds of thousands of people served in the security forces on both sides ) it would be amazing if there was not some collusion. This was known to the governments on both sides, as another poster pointed out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/british-and-irish-traded-concerns-over-security-forces-collusion-1.3340552

There was also suspected collusion between from some in the public sector, and private sector, in N.I. in identifying members of the security forces there. Not often, but it would be amazing to think it did not happen.

Very hard to prove something beyond doubt, or that someone once or twice whispered something to a paramilitary. But out of hundreds of thousands of people on both sides, you are bound to have got some people who leaked information, or who were paramilitaries before they joined or who had sympathies for the paramilitaries, or who were close friends or relatives of paramilitaries etc. etc.

As noted before, if some Irish army or ex Irish army soldiers (inc elite Army rangers) have trained people in Libya who else do you suspect could have been trained by one or two or more rogue members / ex members, in the era before so much cctv and computers and hi-tech survelance?

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/04/27/defence-forces-response-to-libya-training-shows-concern-over-reputational-risk/

https://www.newarab.com/news/ex-irish-soldiers-training-haftars-forces-amid-un-embargo

https://www.newstalk.com/news/irish-soldiers-accused-of-training-warlord-in-libya-against-un-law-1712115

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077836#Comment_122077836

”Boring now” riding in on the coattails of your perpetual defender of nonsense Blanch now I see.

This is’t a question of collusion; this is you making things up about the IRA being trained by the Irish Army in bomb making. You cannot simply admit you came up with this in a text book but of bluster form you when you were being again found out on another topic.

The, again, laughable bit about your posts is the complete lack of any relevance with reality. Despite your claims that “you read more history books than most” on here , there are literal books and papers written on IRA self taught ingenuity when it came to bombs, bomb making and weapons manufacture. So much so that the complete opposite of what you were stating was the truth- the Irish Army learned extensively for the IRA techniques.

The repeated irrelevant copy-paste “Irish rangers in Libya” is the new stunt to deflect from not answering the questions put to you.

Blanch to the rescue in 5…4….3…2…

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077836#Comment_122077836

Is there evidence in there that shows the Irish Army trained the IRA with the knowledge of the government?

Not seeing it tbh.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077890#Comment_122077890

Evidence is only required when criticising UK/Loyalist sectarianism and antics.

Other than that “I am of the opinion that…” or “I cannot think of…” should suffice and you should be thankful for that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077945#Comment_122077945

Seems that all this latest theory, that the Irish Army trained the IRA with government knowledge is based on, 'this happened, so therefore don't you think this happened'.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077987#Comment_122077987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077945#Comment_122077945

It just goes to show how sectarian you are if you think most of the tens of thousands of UDR (who served during the troubles) , were involved in collusion , but nobody in the Irish army colluded with Republicans like the pIRA.

See how ridiculous your argument is? Or do you still really think most of the tens of thousands who served in the UDR colluded because they were mostly Protestants, and of the good Catholics in the Irish army - of course none of the tens of thousands of Irish army personnel could possibly have colluded with, or been infiltrated by, the pIRA?

Do not be silly. We know from the Arms trial, Capt. Kelly of the Irish army, the Smithwick tribunal etc there was collusion on all sides.

Hence of of the reasons I asked  "Can you explain ALL of the reasons the pIRA military knowledge and expertise was far superior to the military knowledge of the loyalist paramilitaries? Was it at least partly because there was (a) greater transfer of knowledge about explosives between Irish army and pIRA than between British army and loyalists (b) more scope for training in certain areas with nod and a wink south of the border - which did happen - than north of the border?"

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077890#Comment_122077890

There is no evidence,if there was you can be assured our super unionist would be posting it

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078104#Comment_122078104

True to form: copy-paste/copy-paste. Ignore what was written and just keep bluffing.

Deflect and dodge means you escape having to admit you are wrong.

Pathetic.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077882#Comment_122077882

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078104#Comment_122078104

Instead, when asked to verify it, they try to make it something that has to be answered for them and to their satisfaction, otherwise they'll accept their nonsense as fact and continue to use it

It's like I saw it coming……

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078104#Comment_122078104

It just goes to show how sectarian you are if you think most of the tens of thousands of UDR (who served during the troubles) ,

Nobody made this argument ^, which is a bit like me defending the Nazis by saying most of the German Army were decent or as pointed out to you before, it's like trying to handwave away abuse in the Roman Catholic church by stating 'BUT many priests were decent good human beings'.

The FACT is, the evidence shows systemic problems with the UDR and sectarianism. The British were made aware of these issues in '73 and ignored them and did nothing. You have been presented with report after report on these matters but totally ignore them.

"Can you explain ALL of the reasons the pIRA military knowledge and expertise was far superior to the military knowledge of the loyalist paramilitaries? Was it at least partly because there was (a) greater transfer of knowledge about explosives between Irish army and pIRA than between British army and loyalists (b) more scope for training in certain areas with nod and a wink south of the border - which did happen - than north of the border?"

Fertilizer bombs are not rocket science. Loyalists did not lack the ability to make them, loyalists lacked the logistical ability to move those bombs and needed the collusion of the security forces.
The IRA had a network of safe houses and were much better organised logistically.

Expertise in plastic explosives came from abroad.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078221#Comment_122078221

Can you or Francis give a reason for your sectarianism, if you still think most of the tens of thousands of UDR (who served during the troubles) were involved in collusion , but nobody in the Irish army colluded with Republicans like the pIRA.

Even though we know from the Arms trial, Capt. Kelly of the Irish army, the Smithwick tribunal etc there was collusion on all sides.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078277#Comment_122078277

It's not sectarianism. To put that in writing is a desperate new low for you and you ill-informed nonsense.

You can start by retracting that lie before I move on to the rest of your gibberish.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078272#Comment_122078272

It is quite interesting to see how brainwashed you are if you truly believe most of the tens of thousands who served in the UDR colluded because they were mostly Protestants or "British", and of the good Catholics in the Irish army - of course none of the tens of thousands of Irish army personnel could possibly have colluded with, or been infiltrated by, the pIRA?

Given how some Irish army or ex Irish army soldiers (inc elite Army rangers) have recently trained people in Libya, who else do you suspect could have been trained by one or two or more rogue members / ex members, in the era before so much cctv and computers and hi-tech survelance?

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078296#Comment_122078296

Doubling down on stupidity and lies is one hill to die on I suppose.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078292#Comment_122078292

It is a cross between sectarianism or possibly racism ( as you may consider the UDR to have been "Brits") if you still think most of the tens of thousands of UDR (who served during the troubles) were involved in collusion , but nobody in the Irish army colluded with Republicans like the pIRA.

That despite evidence showing there was collusion on all sides ( eg Capt Kelly of the Irish army, the Arms trial, the Smithwick tribunal etc ). And as we saw recently from Libya.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078308#Comment_122078308

It's not sectarianism it's not racism. To put that in writing is a desperate new low for you and you ill-informed nonsense.

You can start by retracting then new lie and the previous one.

You continue to reach new, even more pathetic lows with your response.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078296#Comment_122078296

if you truly believe most of the tens of thousands who served in the UDR colluded 

Who made this claim?

The claim is that the issues of sectarianism and collusion within the UDR were sufficient to warrant several reports being given to their masters in the British government. NO ACTION was taken by the British government while the litany of sectarian involvement continued, until 1992.

That is the claim. Now deal with that and stop making stuff up.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078308#Comment_122078308

It is a cross between sectarianism or possibly racism

Still awaiting these idiotic lies to be retracted.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077160#Comment_122077160

so francie, give us the link to the map. I would like to see it for myself as it is a total nonsense - if you are suggesting the Stots relate to the stats posted earlier. There is one area on that map which takes in the area outside Castlewellan town towards Clough. it absolutely contains a significant minority of PUL community, but I can absolutely guarantee you that the other four sections which are located in the town contain no PUL community.
post us the link

McDougal2

https://twitter.com/i/status/1784264775574188371

This is europe

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079143#Comment_122079143

I've told you several times where the data is. https://explore.nisra.gov.uk/area-explorer-2021/N20003345/

Here is the map and the data for the other areas.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076333#Comment_122076333

you guys are looking back with Rosie spectacles and picking out isolated incidences. The security forces in Northern Ireland have been recognised time and again for their professionalism in the face of incredible violence.

I just thought this little tweet I came across was very relevant and brings some context. Here are the guards trying to deal with villagers at a peaceful protest- compare this with police facing violent crowds and being pelted with stones bottles and petrol bombs, while the likes of Martin McGuinness is in the shadows firing live rounds. Of course people got hurt, but the numbers getting hurt were unbelievably small in the circumstances.
so consider how your guards are dealing with what I understand are peaceful protests

https://x.com/theliberal_ie/status/1785088490864099367?s=46