Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086412#Comment_122086412

People tend to flock towards their own the world over: look at Irish communities in Boston, Chinese communities in Chinatowns the world over etc.

I do not speak for the Unionist parties, nor do I pretend to, but nobody can claim there has been discrimination in N.I. since 1973 ie two generations ago. Even pre 1973, it was not as bad as you make out, and in many ways was not as bad as in this one party sectarian FF/FG state as you once called it. When the UDR was set up it was 18% catholic: when the RUC was set up, 3000 of the 7000 places were reserved for Catholics : contrast that to this state, where for the first 50 years virtually no protestants were in the Irish army, Gardai etc. Not surprising when DeValera said if he has one job to give, and 2 applicants, one catholic + one protestant, he would always give the job to the catholic ( or words to that effect). Not surprising the minority declined south of the border / grew in N.I.

You are the one who attacked Downcow telling him / her that Downcow had "prejudice and slant on history".As noted before, the picture Downcow paints of his community's experience in Co. Down ( where he lives) is consistent with what many others in his community have found / experienced….and Downcow is quite a moderate. After all, Downcow condemns the paramilitaries on both sides: you only condemn the loyalists and the British of course. Are you going to withdraw your remarks or do you think everyone that disagrees with your SF view has a "prejudice and slant on history". Of course you do not have "prejudice and slant on history", do you ????

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086478#Comment_122086478

I do not speak for the Unionist parties, 

Ok. That was the question I asked.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086490#Comment_122086490

Do you seriously think Downcow is the one with  "prejudice and slant on history" when he / she is moderate in comparison to you? After all, Downcow condemns the paramilitaries on both sides: you only condemn the loyalists and the British of course.

As asked already, are you going to withdraw your remarks or do you think everyone that disagrees with your SF view has a "prejudice and slant on history"?

FrancieBrady

Terrible day for all those in search of truth and justice.

The British government roundly condemned by every Irish political party and victims groups.

They care about neither Protestant or Catholic, republican or loyalist or nationalist or unionist.

https://twitter.com/EmmaCDeSouza/status/1785633167770030172

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086176#Comment_122086176

But party loyalty would be strong up north and along the border, where voting is still more of a tribal thing. That is really quite obvious.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086948#Comment_122086948

I don't know a single person who would trade a UI for a cheap packet of fags or a few pence off their diesel. Plenty of I'm alright jacks of that there is no doubt.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087672#Comment_122087672

The vast majority of people I know would not pay €20 billion a year plus ( 2019 prices, probably more now ) for the mess and turmoil that a "united Ireland" would be. Think Brexit but a thousand times worse. Especially if they were going to be ruled by a party with opinions like yours, where you think others like Downcow have "prejudice and slant on history" (your words, not mine), and where you will not admit you have "prejudice and slant on history". Pretty ironic, seeing as Downcow is, I think, quite moderate - at least Downcow condemns the paramilitaries on both sides: you only condemn (every day) the loyalists and the British of course.

FrancieBrady

Just to clarify and to avoid anymore repetition.
If somebody labels children on the grounds that those attending a youth club were labelled here, then I believe the person doing that labelling to be prejudiced.
Downcow’s slant on the history of Castlewellan being unique is also dubious as the census data shows.
That is not to deny that Castlewellan did suffer like all sides everywhere did.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089017#Comment_122089017

The census does not tell which way people vote. If Downcow says the demographics have changed in Castlewellan in the way he or she described, I would certainly more believe him or her, given they are a unionist from that area and you are not.

Downcow did not label children: you nitpick about his point being the ice skating rink in Dundonald being more cross-community than the GAA stadium in Casement Park.

Downcow condemns the paramilitaries on both sides: you only condemn (every day) the loyalists and the British of course. And you claim Downcow is the one who has "prejudice and slant on history"!!!!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089179#Comment_122089179

. If Downcow says the demographics have changed in Castlewellan in the way he or she described, I would certainly more believe him or her,

Not sure why you keep coming back with the same copy and paste post.

Final word on all this: You are entitled to believe what and who you want to.

You are entitled to view what you wish as 'trivial'.

And everyone else is accorded the same entitlement.

Yours is based on your perception of downcow, my beliefs about the various claims made are based on factually based census material and various photographs and scepticism about an as yet unbacked up claim about the existence of a flag flying 'agreement/that morphed into a 'protocol'.

I will not be replying to another copy and paste of your 'beliefs'.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089432#Comment_122089432

It is not copy and paste, and it it not about "my beliefs". It is about how you believe Downcow - who lets face it, is quite a moderate - is the one who has "prejudice and slant on history"!!!!

You are the one who refuses to condemn the para-militaries on both sides, but you have no difficulty condemning (every day) the loyalists and the British of course. 

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968234#Comment_121968234

As per census north and south - there is no nationality such as British and Irish - therefore there is no identity such as British and Irish in Ireland.

One is either Irish or one isn't in Ireland. If one is not Irish in Ireland, you are obviously a foreigner in Ireland.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991284#Comment_121991284

What do you imagine you mean by the past?

The foreign ethnic British Unionists as a people are interlopers in Ireland - a disruptive alien minority planted in our country to form an English Colony.

Unless and until Unionists obey the democratic will of us Irish people and assimilate into Irish society, Unionists are still foreigners in Ireland - still occupying part of our country in another country's name - still holding Ireland back in the same way they always have, since the planters and plantees first stole Irish land from us Irish people.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967337#Comment_121967337

In the news this week.

Remind me again, when did Ireland re-gain its freedom from England?

Anyone - anyone at all?

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972483#Comment_121972483

Why lump in Ireland with Britain or Irish people with the foreign British people at all?

Ireland broke away from the continent of Europe around 12000 B.C. That is six thousand years before what became known as Britain did. 

Ireland was never a part of Britain, therefore never part the so-called "British Isles"   

Therefore the use of the term "mainland" Britain is also nonsense. The Continent is Ireland's mainland.

Irish History

Quote missing

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972837#Comment_121972837

Being debated right now as I write on the bbc - Fitzgerald is being torn apart by Doyle.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965710#Comment_121965710

Ireland, meaning the historical Nation of Ireland obviously belongs to the Irish people - not to foreign British people or the land they live in.

The fact that a foreign country illegally invaded and fraudulently occupied Ireland does not mean that any part of Ireland actually belongs to the foreigners - it merely means Ireland was illegally invaded and is still fraudulently occupied by the foreign country to this day.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086661#Comment_122086661

Get real - downcow is from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock in Ireland. That person clearly has a deluded foreign slant on all things Ireland and Irish.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093617#Comment_122093617

Are you trolling or on a wind up?

Even if Downcow ancestors going back 300 or 400 years were from across the water in Scotland or whatever ( Scotland is visible on a clear day from N.I. and people have been going over and back for a lot longer than that ), does that give you a right to be-little Downcow as coming "from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock" as you call it? That is close to being a racist / sectarian statement you made, in the context of N.I., because you added further insult by saying  "That person clearly has a deluded foreign slant on all things Ireland and Irish." As if you do not have a slant?

Downcow is moderate in comparison to some Republicans on this site ( not looking at anyone in particular!) because at least he/she condemns the para-militaries on both sides.

Countess Markievicz ( the rebel / cowardly terrorist - depending on your point of view - who shot an un-armed policeman from Achill in cold blood on St.Stephens green in 1916 ) was also "from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock" but you do not condemn her, do you?

At least you and FrancisBrady by being so close to being sectarian / racist ( he also thought Downcow is the one with  "prejudice and slant on history", but he does not think he himself has a "prejudice and slant on history" ) make it easy for people to decide if they want a U.I. or not because, if nothing else, we can see what the future would hold for the minority in a U.I.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093821#Comment_122093821

depending on your point of view 

…you can say someone is prejudiced if they label children in order to bolster their victimhood.

If you have a different point of view, you will excuse the labeling of children and call it 'trivial'.

It may be 'trivial' but as it is not based on any facts and it is intended to demean, it is 'prejudiced' and happened (the labelling) because downcow has a particular slant in history.

In a UI and even now there are several contested 'slants' on our history.
A UI will not usher in an agreed slant, so you better get used to people having them.

These threads wouldn't exist if there were not 'slants' on history.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096346#Comment_122096346

So at least you are finally acknowledging you yourself have a slant on history. You are different to most democrats in that you refuse to condemn the para-militaries on both sides.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096365#Comment_122096365

Of course I have a slant on history. I only give a slant I can back up too. I have routinely asked you and downcow to show an accredited history book that backs up some of your slant, but you never oblige.

I have routinely condemned the violence from the start. My 'slant' on history allows me to back up and illustrate why that violence began even back in the time of Countess Markievicz and beyond.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096379#Comment_122096379

Francis thought he had a gotcha when stating countess markievicz was british! Completely irrelevant,there were also irish people in the british army so i dont know what their point was about her being british was

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096744#Comment_122096744

He/she exposes the flaw or hypocrisy in their whole standpoint and it all comes back to how we agree a way forward on remembering, commemoration and official narratives.

You can have a 'view' of Countess Markievicz according to Francis, but you cannot have a view on the British or the UDR etc etc.
I am quite comfortable with my view being challenged and can argue my case, what the Francis's and downcow's and blanch's of this world will have to accept is challenges to their view. Especially when there are no facts presented to back those views up.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096744#Comment_122096744

I was replying to the poster "Irish History" who be-littled another poster because he was "from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock" etc, and obviously he (the poster "Irish History") disagrees with anything even a moderate unionist has to say. My point was in the post I made, read it carefully "Countess Markievicz ( the rebel / cowardly terrorist - depending on your point of view - who shot an un-armed policeman from Achill in cold blood on St.Stephens green in 1916 ) was also "from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock" but you do not condemn her, do you?"

Do not forget these were the British isles in 1916 and Countess Markievicz was certainly from British stock if "Irish History" can claim the other poster on boards.ie was "from foreign ethnic British Unionist stock".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096379#Comment_122096379

You say you "have routinely condemned the violence from the start" but of course according to your slant on Irish History, the violence only came from the dastardly loyalists and British. You refused to condemn the republican para-militaries like the pIRA because it was "military action" etc. We have been through that before, at least you and Gerry Adams have plenty in common.

Most others have a different "slant" on Kingsmills, Le Mons, Enniskillen etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122097077#Comment_122097077

but of course according to your slant on Irish History, the violence only came from the dastardly loyalists and British.

This is an absolute out and out fallacy. One of many now.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122097184#Comment_122097184

To avoid playing with words, will you answer a question with a yes or no answer: do you condemn the para-militaries that were on both sides? A yes or no answer will suffice.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122097328#Comment_122097328

I have gone further than that many times. Further than you will.
I condemn all the violence from whom ever engaged in it, from the beginning.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122097328#Comment_122097328

For the umpteenth time,franciebrady has condemed violence on both sides,it is documented here many many times.now,heres a question for YOU,do YOU condenm the violence on all sides?