Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079799#Comment_122079799

So once again we get an attempt to dilute what was done by trying to get people to look somewhere else.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079776#Comment_122079776

excellent stuff. I didn’t know this existed.
I haven’t time now, but I will debunk your nonsense this evening.
But just as a precursor, and dealing only with your yellow highlights. The first one that has 13% British includes the area I referred to outside town which has a significant unionist population.
As for the other two highlighted areas, I think it was 7% on 5% - just had a quick glance. I see that those figures match fairly closely with the people in those areas born on the mainland - what could they class themselves other than British?

in the meantime, until I give you my analysis of the data, why don’t those interested pick the most Republican area they can think of and Northern Ireland and pop across for a look at the stats. I just picked the Bogside and had a look and it is incredibly comparable to Castlewellan, as is the Shankill the other way round.

PS, when you are looking at Castlewellan, you can disregard the area with the 13% as much of that is outside the town, the other areas are fairly much in the town.

Maybe you can save us all a lot more posts if you just accept that Castlewellan has as few unionists as the Bogside and the Falls Road which is equivalent to the number of nationalists on the Shankill. That would be something we could agree on.

Ps i’ve just noticed Crossmanglen is as mixed as Castlewellan 😂 I think you have just burst your own bubble with that link

Remember that in the case of Castlewellan we are talking about a town that was over 40% unionist/protestant. Has three protestant churches and an orange Hall, and until the IRA began their sectarian campaign, also had a large high school, primary school and the masonic Hall. These are all now gone and if you want me to be explicit about how the IRA got rid of each one just pick one and let me know. And of course, dozens of businesses gone.

https://explore.nisra.gov.uk/area-explorer-2021/N20003147/

But sure, there was no intimidation !

Crossmaglen town centre 😂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079900#Comment_122079900

And so, the rowback and diluting and 'the look over there's' begin. Worth looking at your original claim:

A significant market town that was 40% unionist at the beginning of the troubles is now 0% unionist. Unionists, under attack from the IRA, left all areas of the town, except one little street 

But sure, there was no intimidation !

Like Francis, you will make up stuff now that was never claimed. Here is a post I made way back, that you are clearly ignoring.

But I do accept the history of segregation.
I do accept that people were displaced all over the north via pogroms, burning out and intimidation and that both sides engaged in this.
Many displaced people still live here in my community in the south and never went back to their homes.

I do accept that many self-segregated too for safety, it is a hallmark of conflict/wars all over the world and throughout history. Many of those in tents that you were mocking the south about are 'displaced people' from other conflict/war areas.
I also accept the government of the sectarian statelet segregated people too.

You didn't know the data was available to contradict your exaggerations and victimhood. P.S. There is a question outstanding about the 'protocol' you mentioned re: flag flying.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060119#Comment_122060119

Like FrancisBrady you think the UDR - not just some bad apples in the UDR, but the UDR itself "were a sectarian state police force". A "loyalist terrorist group" (your words, not mine), says you. Like Francis Brady, you tar the tens of thousands of decent law-abiding people who served with the one brush.

Its is you who is clearly sectarian, because you cannot accept there could even have been, not that there was, collusion between the Irish army and the pIRA. This despite Capt Kelly of the Irish army, the arms trial, the Smithwick tribunal etc. I think we can all agree the pIRA was quite clever, cunning, whatever word you want to use. Do you think it never occured to them to infiltrate the Irish army, or do you think out of the tens of thousands of Irish army personnel in that era (of the troubles) there not not at least a few "sympathisers" in its ranks shall we say?

Like Francie Brandy, you insinuate most of those tens of thousands "prods" in the "loyalist terror group" of the UDR colluded or acted outside the law, while every one of the tens of thousands of good catholics in our Irish army never done anything wrong in their lives, never looked the other way, never passed on information etc. You probably think the group of Irish army / ex Irish army (inc elite Irish Army Rangers) caught training others in Libya recently (against UN/EU embargos) was just a one off, sure nothing like than could have happened with any other group (not even for love, money or blackmail) during the troubles.

Maybe you were brain washed like some others, or else you have convinced yourself the above is true because it helps you deal with your conscience: like Michelle O'Neill, if you believe there was "no alternative" to the pIRA sectarian campaign and that those who the pIRA killed were themselves sectarian, that may ease your conscience?

The question remains: how was pIRA bomb making technology and weapons expertise on such a professional level were it not for the fact it got training from professional military, unlike the loyalists?

I think the truth is the was some collusion between individuals on all sides.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080149#Comment_122080149

It is a cross between sectarianism or possibly racism

Still awaiting these idiotic lies to be retracted before I deal with the rest of your utter nonsense. You don't get to bandy about this stuff and then insist we answer your illogical questions.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080160#Comment_122080160

Not surprised you go for the player rather than the ball. I am not a liar.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080175#Comment_122080175

It is a cross between sectarianism or possibly racism

The irony. You throw out these disgusting labels rather than read what I and others wrote because you cannot comprehend the issues.

It's simple stuff. Show some modicum of decency and retract these idiotic lies before we move on.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080184#Comment_122080184

It is you who wrote that you think the UDR - not just some bad apples in the UDR, but the UDR itself "were a sectarian state police force". A "loyalist terrorist group" (your words, not mine), says you. As noted before, like Francis Brady, you tar the tens of thousands of decent law-abiding people who served with the one brush, while you dismiss any possibility or thoughts of collusion between some in the Irish army and the paramilitaries.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080199#Comment_122080199

Nope. You're done.

You're innate immaturity and lack of any sense in how a coherent discussion can continue has been highlighted again and again. You're a habitual liar with limitless motivation to bend any sort of argument without any reasoning.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080208#Comment_122080208

What do you mean" Your done"?

Charming.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079947#Comment_122079947

I completely stand by my claim that there is 0% unionist in Castlewellan town. I clearly made the exception from the beginning of a small 100% unionist Street that is within the official town boundary but is remote from the rest of the town protected by field churches etc. I also said that you may find a quirk from somewhere. Mind you you have still found nothing to demonstrate a single unionist living in the town. British does not equal unionist. Quite clearly those referring to themselves as British are the people born on the mainland who have married into families, etc.

the stats back me up 100%
I think you missed answering the question. Will you agree that there are a similar number of unionists living in Castlewellan as there are in the Bogside, crossmahle annd the lower falls? That, at least, cannot be denied from the stats.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080914#Comment_122080914

I made no comparison to the Bogside and accept that segragation an displacement occurred.
However, I don’t exaggerate to appear to be a victim.
Multiple times now your statements have been called in to doubt with hard data and facts.

Not one of those identifying as British or NI is Unionist because you say so? Are you having a laugh?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080950#Comment_122080950

You say you "don’t exaggerate". Are you having a laugh? Because you claimed before the UDR was sectarian : not just some bad apples in it but the UDR itself. And you do not think anyone from the Irish army could ever have passed information or colluded with the pIRA? Despite the findings about Capt Kelly, the Arms trial, the Smithwick tribunal, the departing and retired Irish army training shady groups in Africa recently breaking UN + EU embargos etc.

Yeah, the pIRA never infiltrated the Irish army or had any sympathisers among the tens of thousands of people who served in it. nod nod wink wink.

Can you explain how was pIRA bomb making technology and weapons expertise on such a professional level were it not for the fact it got training from professional military, unlike the loyalists? If it was the other way around and loyalist paramilitaries were the ones to have bomb making technology and weapons expertise on such a professional level, or who had "safe" areas to practice in, we would never hear the end of your complaining.

I think there was collusion on all sides, but the vast majority of people in the security forces on both sides of the border were law abiding and decent people, and did not collude with para-militaries.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081061#Comment_122081061

I don’t have to explain a thing. If you don’t know how expertise was acquired then do the research.
I never mentioned the IRA’s capabilities

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080950#Comment_122080950

so tell what your evidence is that there are unionists living in Castlewellan?
it’s impossible to prove something does not exist, but it should be easy to prove it does.

Ps unless we can get the voting figures for those areas - that should be definitive- with the obvious small error margins built in.
I’ll ask my local councillor if this exact exists

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080950#Comment_122080950

I see we have a larger percentage identifying as Catholic than as straight/heterosexual in Castlewellan 😂

You need to wise up and accept your own stats 👍

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082226#Comment_122082226

I'd find it very difficult to believe that every single person there who identifies as British is not from Northern Ireland. I'm also very surprised that you are arguing that those people from Britain are not Unionists either.

Is it just a crowd of British identifying English separatists that have moved into Castlewellan, Downcow?

I don't believe for a second that there is a single town large enough to be found on a map anywhere in Northern Ireland that has 0 people who are Nationalist nor do I believe there is one with 0 people who are Unionist.

Francie has provided some soft evidence that would imply the percentage is indeed low, but not 0, and that passes the sniff test of my experience of even the more enclaved areas of the North.....you've provided, 'oh yeah, trust me' and hand waved away census data as non-Unionist Brits who aren't from NI with zero evidence to support that either.

Your overarching point about Castlewellan doesn't depend on there being precisely 0 Unionists living in the town, so I'm not really sure why you're so determined to argue such a ridiculously over the top point.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082266#Comment_122082266

You made the claim about Castlewellan and sadly, the data calls it massively into question. It is highly unlikely that among 14% identifying as British and 29% identifying as Northern Irish there are no ‘Unionists’.
You can twist to the Bogside (that nobody mentioned) or some spurious nonsense about homosexuals, it seems s your claim that is an exaggeration. As somebody else said, maybe they are the wrong type of ‘Unionists’.

Now either back up what you claim with something other than your assurances or we are done with the latest bit of playing the victim.
You have also been asked to back up the existence of a flag flying protocol.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081937#Comment_122081937

If those lads who are departing or departed from the Irish army were not caught in Libya recently, it would be hard to prove they were there.

It is even hard to prove "you know who" was in the IRA but most people believe he was.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082280#Comment_122082280

Everything has to be exaggerated.
Intimidation, segragation where horrible things of the NI statelet from the get go. Everywhere and all sides experienced it.
On foot of his spurious claim. downcow started on about naming a town that was 100% Unionist as a result of Loyalist intimidation…I can't, nor can I name one that is 100% nationalist.
Downcow said also that there were dozens of towns similar to Castlewellan. You have to ask, is he living in some parallel universe?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082280#Comment_122082280

fionn, that’s a reasonable argument and I thank you for bringing some sanity to the discussion.
You are absolutely right, it doesn’t need to be zero for my point to be relevant.

The problem with trying to have a discussion with some on here is that when you try to clarify your position or bring more information, they accuse you of moving the goalposts , etc. This is not helpful to any discussion.
Watch them at it in a moment as I try to clarify my position.
My point really is that I grew up an area in which the unionist community absorbed an incredible amount of intimidation, supremacy, don’t want a n*ger about the place, behaviour From a significant section of the nationalist community led by the IRA.
Believe me, given the situation we lived in, we absolutely knew every single one of our community, and done whatever we could to be the eyes and years of each other. For that reason, I can absolutely guarantee that every last one of them (I will qualify this in a moment) left the town through fear of the IRA and their mates.
(to qualify - one elderly man and his disabled daughter did not leave and they stayed there until his death this year. But his house was attacked several times every year, he had grills on his windows, and set up his living room at the back of his house for safety reasons. His house was bombed a number of times and was fire-bomb to the ground on one occasion, with them escaping with their lives and nothing else. this man was simply a protestant, he has never served in the security forces and was absolutely not connected to any paramilitary organisations, he was a very respected local bus inspector.

Now have people moved in from outside outside subsequently? Can I be 100% sure that some unionist who the rest of the community hasn’t heard of, has moved in? I guess no I can’t be sure.

One outside protestant I have got to know very well has moved in. But he is a nationalist, married to a local Catholic and his kids are members of the GAA. A really nice guy, who has just became the newest MLA this week.

so are there people in Castlewellan who are unionists? I guess when we look at the stats on polling, and see that more and more people from a traditional nationalist background are now saying they would vote for the union in a referendum, I guess that makes them unionists. So on that basis, I guess there are unionists and Castlewellan. But I think any honest, reasonable person will know the point I was making and that I am talking about people in the traditional PUL community.

Now let the gauding and name calling begin, from the predictable sources

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082767#Comment_122082767

You grew up in Northern Ireland in which many people on all sides experienced what you experienced.

There is nothing unique about Castlewellan in other words.

Took a while but I think you know your exaggerating has been rumbled. Your attempt at snideness and nationalists identifying as Unionists makes that abundantly clear.

Any luck with the flag flying protocol? Or was it an ‘agreement’?
You seem reluctant to back that up with anything more than assurances.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082767#Comment_122082767

That's the thing though, Downcow. I can talk of many of the same stories, of people burned out of their houses, windows broken, ATAT spray painted on their walls etc etc.

You tried to paint it as an exclusive experience of the Unionist community when you know full well it absolutely isn't, and tried to make the point by claiming there were 0 Unionists in Castlewellan.....with the intention of denying the comparable experience of others because they couldn't name a place that had 0 Nationalists.

I can't and won't play down your lived experience, but I will deny that it is a unique experience for the Unionist community.

I will fully accept that all the Unionists you knew in Castlewellan 40 years ago are no longer there, but would dispute the likelihood of your claims of zero or practically zero Unionists currently living there, and also of your painting the scenario as uniquely Unionist.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082842#Comment_122082842

You tried to paint it as an exclusive experience of the Unionist community when you know full well it absolutely isn't, and tried to make the point by claiming there were 0 Unionists in Castlewellan

The annoying aspect of that claim was that it came with the proclamation that there would be no UI until nationalists accepted this exaggeration and dubious bit of victimhood.

Seems downcow needs to address his own prejudice and slant on history.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082890#Comment_122082890

In a sense, I don't actually think it is much of an exaggeration and I do think it is important to acknowledge these things happen if we want Unification.

It is the suggestion that it was a uniquely Unionist experience that bothered me. Unfortunately we don't have to spend very long to find examples of people treating eachother absolutely horrendously during the Troubles.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083014#Comment_122083014

Acknowledgement of these things happening on both sides was part and parcel of the GFA.

We've had 25 years of peace and the place is all the better for it, but some still miss the good old days of division and finger pointing. Thankfully they are being left behind and a new NI is emerging in the last (roughly) 10 years.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083014#Comment_122083014

it is a known fact that the conflict here was not symmetrical. The communities certainly had some similar experiences, but also experiences were very different depending on which community you came from.
I am not claiming anything as uniquely unionist, but I am claiming that the scenario Castlewellan and many dozens of other towns and villages went through was a one-sided experience. The wearing down of a Community through intimidation, exclusion and supremacy by a significant number in the other community, supported and led by the IRA (or UVF), over many decades, I do believe is an experience potentially only Protestants have sustained.
There were vicious expulsions of both communities in many situations over a period of weeks or months or even a year or two, but I honestly cannot think of a single town or village that was mixed and then, over the period of several decades, Catholics were systematically pushed out to the point that, to all intent and purpose, none remain. I am honestly on here to be educated, not ranted at by people like francie, and I would really appreciate it if someone can give me a few examples of towns are villages where this has happened.
There have been equally terrible things done on Catholic communities, but it’s not symmetrical and it’s different. I am not claiming one community as less guilty than the other.
On this point, I do think you are directing your ire in the wrong direction. I absolutely think that the UVF, LVF, IRA, and INLA were to all intent and purpose equally sectarian, equally vicious, and equally cowardly. I honestly believe most Republicans who post on this forum would not be able to make that statement because they have not came to terms with the sectarianism of the organisations they supported. Maybe that is the reason I feel I need to tell these stories, to try and burst the bubble, for people like francie and choochtown. Probably it’s pointless, but no harm in trying.

downcow

There has been zero acknowledgement of the sectarianism of the IRA , and it is going to be very difficult to have genuine peace and reconciliation without that.
I believe the vast majority of the PUL community have accepted the paramilitaries on their side were inherently sectarian, we really need the nationalist community to step up to the plate and do the same

downcow

You are demonstrating exactly the problem, and why it is very difficult to move on

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083298#Comment_122083298

Maybe that is the reason I feel I need to tell these stories, to try and burst the bubble,

The arrogance of this is staggering.