Why I'll say no to a united ireland

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023413#Comment_122023413

…it was part of the moving on process

Move on will you

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023204#Comment_122023204

Of course theres a difference when the dead being commerated were killing Irish citizens and worse Gardaí

Very public PDA's for them in that case will rightfully draw criticism

Garda killers being draped in our countries flag is a big no no in my book

It disrespects the flag in a most heinous way

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023615#Comment_122023615

If you are going to be selective you confer the right on others to be selective so we are back to square one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023486#Comment_122023486

maybe you missed it but purze said he would “rather we moved on and consign the bad to the past and the good to the future. Dwelling and mulling is unhealthy”

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023581#Comment_122023581

tbh I don’t completely disagree with your call for everyone to move on. The problem is, as can be seen in Francie last post, some people think that the unionist community should move on without any answers from the IRA while the nationalist community should be entitled to lots of answers.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023805#Comment_122023805

The state shooting people on the streets was a crime against all of the people.
The 'state' is not part of the Loyalism or Unionism ideologies and should never have been involved with them in the conflict.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023816#Comment_122023816

I know but,opinions expressed here are just that , opinions

Some from dyed in the wool posters who make a life here with others in their office pushing policies and opinions

At the end of the day,does Rishi or Simon read these threads ,No

Do the people making the decisions,No

This forum is almost as bad now as the current affairs forum with everybody wanting to one up the next

Its not the politics forum it used be anymore

I'm out

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023860#Comment_122023860

What else are we supposed to be giving other than ‘opinions’?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021938#Comment_122021938

And let's not forget the SF MP posting a video of himself with a Kingsmill pan of bread on his head on the anniversary of the killings.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/video-sinn-fein-politician-apologises-over-kingsmill-loaf-video-on-massacre-anniversary/36463410.html

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023837#Comment_122023837

so let me get this straight. Are you saying Bloody Sunday was a crime against all of the people but kingsmill was not? I am very confused?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023469#Comment_122023469

you’re analogy is complete sophistry

downcow

I got lambasted on here for saying I felt more at home in Scotland than I do in Dublin. Seems I wasn’t so crazy after all

https://x.com/thejournal_ie/status/1779875017632731566?s=46

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024335#Comment_122024335

The state didn’t commit Kingsmill

The state is supposed to look after all the people, it failed then killed them in cold blood.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024341#Comment_122024341

i disagree.
Projects don’t get shelved because not everyone is being looked after/or doing well. Huge projects have been invested in even though some are living in poverty.
You and I might wish that was the case but it has never been that way.

blanch152

Bloody Sunday was a crime, everyone acknowledges that. Most of the policing in the North during that time was not a crime.

By contrast, nearly every single action of the PIRA was a crime, from killing women and children, horrific sectarian attacks, raping women, punishment beatings, kidnapping of innocents, covering up child abuse etc., the list is very very long.

It is correct to remember what happened on Bloody Sunday and to seek answers. It is also correct to demand answers from the PIRA and their supporters, and especially from those members of the Army Council, who we are assured on here by the usual posters, that are now involved in democratic politics. There should be no commemorations or memorials of the PIRA, except to honour their victims.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025048#Comment_122025048

"There should be no commemorations or memorials of the PIRA, except to honour their victims"

Do you think this should apply to the british army and the other various loyalist terror groups? Or should it only apply to republicans?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025048#Comment_122025048

Is this in the context of a UI or a federal solution or even an Independent NI?
I am all for a discussion on what we celebrate/commemorate then.

By contrast, nearly every single action of the PIRA was a crime, from killing women and children, horrific sectarian attacks, raping women, punishment beatings, kidnapping of innocents, covering up child abuse etc., the list is very very long.

It is correct to remember what happened on Bloody Sunday and to seek answers. It is also correct to demand answers from the PIRA and their supporters, and especially from those members of the Army Council, who we are assured on here by the usual posters, that are now involved in democratic politics. There should be no commemorations or memorials of the PIRA, except to honour their victims.

This sounds a bit like the post-GFA 'Bloomfield' report which basically attempted to create a biased hierarchy of victims and tried to exclude state sponsored violence altogether.

That is never going to work.

What is required as outlined by the Healing Through Remembering report or process All Truth Is Bitter is a full and frank Truth Recovery process in which all sides participate and which is convened independently of governments.

Then, and only then, can have we have an agreed narrative of the causes and events of the conflict and some chance at proper reconciliation.
As shown with the ICLVR, if trust in these processes is established then the truth can be forthcoming.

Quite clear to me that the British Government with the compliance of the Irish government are kicking these processes to touch until it too late to get at the full truth.

Francis McM

There should be no commemorations or memorials for any of the paramilitaries involved in the troubles, except to honour their victims. However, there are few if any commemorations or memorials for any of the loyalist paramilitaries, no football grounds named after them etc. No mainstream unionist politicians going to commemorations of loyalist paramilitaries and saying there was "no alternative" etc.

Most of the policing on both sides of the border during that time was not a crime, and were the security forces of a democratically elected EU state. Not comparable with paramilitaries, who were secret terrorist groups / army (depending on your point of view) and whose almost every single action was a crime.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025163#Comment_122025163

I really don't understand the wish to commemorate and celebrate the criminal thugs of the PIRA.

You can either agree with me that it is inappropriate to have any public celebration or memorial of PIRA members (their families can mourn in private) or you can explain why you disagree.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025272#Comment_122025272

You need to take onboard the facts here.

We know that a great deal of the policing was within the law, (why we should be thankful for that simple requirement defeats me) however much of it wasn't.

On killings alone (there were other criminal acts that created victims);

There are 1200 unresolved killings on the books.

45.5% are attributed to republicans.

23% are attributed to loyalists

28.5% attributed to security forces

3% are from unknown sources.

From a republican perspective that is at least 50% of the killings perpetrated by the 'other side'.

Unless and until you accept these facts then your perspective is biased and you too are just seeking to impose a hierarchy.

That is the tragedy of what happened, there is no hierarchy of victims.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025297#Comment_122025297

I didnt say if i agreed or disagreed, i asked you a question which you havnt answered

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025362#Comment_122025362

Define "unresolved killings". Would you include the 11 innocent Protestant workmen victims of the pIRA at Kingsmill to be "unresolved killings"

Republicans were responsible for over 99% of the explosions during the troubles.

In reality the vast majority (90%) of murders during the troubles were as a result of terrorist activity. Some (but not all) of the remainder were accidents, self defence etc.

,

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025494#Comment_122025494

Well, let's deal with the celebration and memorials of the PIRA first, before we go down the rabbit hole of whataboutery.

I note you have avoided putting your cards on the table. Do you support the commemoration of PIRA members and the creation of public memorials and the naming of stadiums?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025579#Comment_122025579

The lies that are peddled on here never cease to amaze me. When you see posters talking about "much" of the policing being criminal, are they talking about 0.000001% or 0.00001%? Because neither of those are "much".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025579#Comment_122025579

Of course they are included.

I am not the one trying to create hierarchies here and I am interested in the full truth, not partial truths or protected truths.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025611#Comment_122025611

You are answering my question with a question.my question was straightforward enough.if you dont want to answer it,thats no problem

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025677#Comment_122025677

You interested in the full truth? If you were really "interested in the full truth" as you claim to be, you would not be claiming that "much" of the policing was not within the law, in your post no. 8061. Hundreds of thousands of people served in the security forces in N.Ireland. Each of those people carried out numerous policing duties over some time.

The vast majority were decent honest people working with the law, as is the case in most western police forces. Otherwise the death toll would have been far higher.

"Much" is often defined in the dictionaries as great in quantity, amount, extent, or degree.

Of the massive amount of policing work carried out over decades, in extremely dangerous times, how could you honestly tar the hundreds of thousands of people with the one brush by saying that "much" of the policing was not within the law? As someone else asked you, what is your definition of much? 0.000001% or 0.00001%?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025870#Comment_122025870

Ok, I have no real interest in arguing again over a word.

Forget the words, 'much of'.

That still leaves us with the facts that the state and it's security forces accounted for 28.5% of the unresolved killings alone. This does not include collusion and aid given to paramilitaries and other acts.

If you still wish to create your hierarchy and biased narrative on foot of those facts, go ahead, but you are revealing yourself to be a part of the problem in reaching any resolution..

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025848#Comment_122025848

I am having a discussion on here about how and why celebrations, commemorations and memorials for the PIRA are creating problems for a united Ireland. Whether or not people celebrate the British Army is completely irrelevant to the question of a united Ireland, you are only introducing it as whataboutery deflection.

It says a lot when you refuse to come off the fence on the celebration of garda killers, of TDs bringing them home from prison for parties and the tricolour being drooped on their coffin. Of course, the first was good, the second bad, because he beat his wife nearly to death in the interim.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026349#Comment_122026349

The question was, what are your proposals for commemoration in a UI, or your preferred option - a federal United Ireland?
You are in favour of a United Ireland of some shape, are you not?

It will not just be the IRA and it's supporters who wish to commemorate.