Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001851#Comment_122001851

Sorry, your comparison is YOUR comparison.

I couldn't care less what you think tbh.

My point was that BOTH jurisdictions are plagued to varying degrees by religious influence and that a UI represents a tremendous opportunity to constitutionally restrict that influence for once and for all.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001882#Comment_122001882

As the Republic of Ireland seems by far to be the worst offender in this regards ( Tell us again, in which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?)

Should'nt the State south of the border get its own house in order before looking north of the border?

You constantly waffling about how " UI represents a tremendous opportunity to constitutionally restrict that influence " is like Hitler waffling to the Jews about how a Europe under Nazi control would be represents a tremendous opportunity to constitutionally improve Europe etc etc. Bullsh*t,Bullsh*t,Bullsh*t, people do not fall for your waffle Francie.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000812#Comment_122000812

The recognised anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is gstk. I have no particular desire that that would be the anthem chosen, indeed, I would prefer a Northern Ireland sporting anthem be chosen - but that decision should rest with rugby in Northern Ireland and not a belligerent Republican in Monaghan.
England use the UK national anthem, Scotland pick a sporting anthem, why shouldn’t Northern around follow either one of these routes - or better, still just stop playing the soldier song and then we’ll all be happy on that issue

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001959#Comment_122001959

You think that here is worse. So what?

The point still stands.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001990#Comment_122001990

I presume I am the belligerent you are referring to?

I didn't have a hand act or part in the compromise reached.
That was among the delegates to the IRFU. With the northern delegation accepting Ireland's Call as a representation and acknowledgement of them with Amhrain Na Bhfiann representing southern players.
The compromise has worked to the admiration of 'almost' all.
Thousands and thousands from your community support the team.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002009#Comment_122002009

If the problems (as regards influence of the church ) are worse south of the border, should'nt the Republic get its own house in order before looking north?

You will not even acknowledge the extent of the extraordinary influence here by answering the following:

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

In which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"? ( We are second only to Israel in the western world ).

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?)

Should'nt the State south of the border get its own house in order before looking north of the border?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002111#Comment_122002111

If the problems (as regards influence of the church ) are worse south of the border,

I don't believe they are.

There is nobody in Dail Eireann using a Petition Of Concern (in a way it was never intended to be used) to block rights to different people on religious grounds.
While the Roman Catholic church still has too much influence in education, nobody goes without an education here and the state saw to it that other religions recieved favourable funding consideration in education.

So two jurisdictions with work to be done to fully separate church and state.

What better way to do that than when you are creating a new state which enshrines equality for all in it's constitution.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994242#Comment_121994242

This is probably the most sensible analysis for pages on this thread.

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001866#Comment_122001866

"A theocracy is where the head of state is ultimately god."

This is a very simplified definition, not one that many people would agree with - it would mean lots of countries are theocracies, including the USA ("one nation under God"). No church has the authority to govern the people of the UK, and people in the UK have religious freedom.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002504#Comment_122002504

I think it is related to the 'Divine Right of Kings and Queens' idea.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002504#Comment_122002504

Subjects of the Crown nonetheless..

tjhook

A theocracy isn't particularly connected to the idea of a monarchy - Iran only became a theocracy after getting rid of its monarchy.

A theocracy is more about direct rule by the church, with church laws. Most independent people would say that even Ireland wasn't a theocracy during the 1930s-1960s; although the church had huge influence, it wasn't actually ruling.

I suppose one could hold their own definition of a theocracy such that that many countries are theocracies. But they'd be in a minority. In Ireland, don't we still have the daily "Dail Prayer"? And the Irish presidential oath asks for guidance from God. But few people would argue that we're a theocracy. Likewise in the UK, the people are not governed by the church's law.

The idea of being a Crown subject is another matter, personally I'm happy not to be one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002026#Comment_122002026

“I presume I am the belligerent you are referring to?”
if the hat fits, wear it 🙂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002892#Comment_122002892

And you fail to address the rather large anomaly that I had nothing to do with a world renowned sporting compromise massively endorsed by your own community as well as everyone here.

Did someone mention belligerence?

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002691#Comment_122002691

The British army swear allegiance to the Crown not the government. There can never be a war without consent of the king or queen who is representing the crown. There cannot even be a coup of the british government without consent of the crown making a UK coup impossible.

The crown that king or queens wears on their head is literally representing the Crown and has all gods powers vested init under british tradition.

The Crown/god is the ultimate freehold owner of all land in the UK and commonwealth

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001959#Comment_122001959

So this a game of which state is/was worst regarding religion influence? A new UI could be more secular. Why does the south or north have to get cards right before going more secular?

Anyway alot of your stats are old. The kids learning time of 10% of school time was from 2012. Now the time has gone from 2.5 hours a week to 2 hours a week ( 20% reduction) with time learning about other religions too.

What can anyone do about the Tuam mothers home of the 1950's today in 2024. Show me one person who is not ashamed that this happened too. Again another dig that is not relevant to society today as there is no mothers homes in the state and has not been for decades.

Since the irish state was born till about 20 years ago 80+% of the population was Catholic so having around the same percentage of Catholic denomination schools is not to suprising. There is also a big legal problem in the state regarding religion and schools as the state are not the owners of the land the schools are on. It is the religious orders. The state therfore cant take that religious ethos away from the school. Only way possible if the state buys out the ground from the school but that is still probably not legally possible and would cost billions.

Any comment regarding religious schools academically out performing state schools up north?

Any comment about the north being in a theocracy and south being a republic?

Religion is just a subject for you to have a dig at the irish state not that you genuinely have a problem with a states having religious influences as you refuse to call out the UK regarding it being a theocracy. Even some of your digs are from 70 years ago too.

You still blame the irish sea border on Simon Coveney dont you even tho it was factually written and implemented by the Tories. Cant blame london for it has to be dublins fault? Are you the journalists Ben Lowry btw. You both seem to sift through any subject and changing fact to have a dig at the irish state.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003738#Comment_122003738

The mask has well and truly slipped on that poster a long time ago.almost every single one of his posts is anti irish and putting ireland down.he keeps repeating the same things over and over again.i dont take anything he says seriously and mostly ignore his posts.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003738#Comment_122003738

You are wrong again. It was only announced not much more than a year ago that the amount of time dedicated to religion will reduce from about two and a half hours to two hours a week. It was not in 2012. No point reading the rest of your post when you get simple facts like that wrong. We still have close on 10% of primary school time spent on religious indoctrination, despite most parents not being that religious. We are second only to Israel in the amount of time spent teaching religion in primary school in the western world.

You say in your introduction "a new U.I. could be more secular.". Fool them once, more fool you. Fool them twice, more fool them. I suppose RTE could stop broadcasting the Angelus in a U.I. and I suppose in a U.I. Sinn Fein would not give a standing ovation at their Ard Fheis to a Garda killer like Pearse McAuley, like they did some years ago. And I suppose pigs could fly over the moon, after we use the magic money tree to buy rockets to send pigs over the moon. Yeah.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006157#Comment_122006157

You persist.
It is two hours of ‘religious instruction’ where children learn about all faiths. For instance, my CoI children could only opt out of the specifically RC part which was certainly nowhere near two hours

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006157#Comment_122006157

Has the reduced hours not been implemented? Do you believe it wont be implemented? They have ageed reduce it. Raging you are loseing ammunition to bash the irish state?

What does fool them once mean regarding a UI becoming more secular? Inferring that you think the new state wont be secular. But if the people of the new republic want it to be secular which i believe the majority do then it will. The only political party that seems to be influenced by religion today in Ireland is the DUP. Which acounts for c.20% of voters in NI, which would equate to about 8% of total voters in a new UI. If we further want to reduce religion education in school we could put that in the propsed new education system.

RTE wont exist after a UI. It will be a new state with a new broadcasting. I doubt and hope the new broadcaster won't have the Angelus and I doubt it will.

As from your posts it is clear you think the states should be from religion. Therefore can you please confirm changing the British theocracy jurisdiction in the north to a secular republic jurisdiction would be a positive? Again you wont answer as religion is just an excuse to bash the irish state with. You would not dare bash the British state with religion would you?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006695#Comment_122006695

I think Francis is off the belief that anything a Roman Catholic does publicly will be/or should be able to be objected to by northern protestants.

Of course that is not how a democracy works.

Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc etc will all be able to practice their religions freely with respect for others.
Everyone, atheist's and religious will be equal before the law.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006695#Comment_122006695

Now this is complete nonsense. On what basis do you claim that RTE won't exist after a UI?

Seriously? Have you any understanding of legislative basis or transfer of undertakings?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006845#Comment_122006845

New state will have the option for a new state broadcaster. I'm sure there will be requests to re-name it and it will have to expand to become the state broadcaster for the whole island.

Another great opportunity to reform and fix what was allowed to become broken and dysfunctional to an alarming extent during the terms of FF and FG governments.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006874#Comment_122006874

Yet again you take an opportunity to take a did at FF and FG : however unfortunately if SF was in power, most people dread to think what the media would look like, given (a) what An Phoblocht is like (b) the amount of legal actions taken by SF against journalists it does not agree with.

You say a U.I. would be an opportunity to change the whole island. You are right, it will be an opportunity to indoctrinate an unprecedented number of kids in N.I., bearing in mind the following:

Which state currently has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

In which state do Irish kids currently spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"? ( We are second only to Israel in the western world ).

Which state currently still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state currently are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state have we had all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009427#Comment_122009427

So, should we do nothing about the last vestiges of religious influence? FF and FG are mentioned because they have had 100 years to remove this influence and haven't.

Again, a UI represents a tremendous opportunity to finally remove the religious influence you point out and the religious influence that afflicts human rights in the north.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009467#Comment_122009467

A SF supporter like yourself talking about human rights is a bit nauseating given the history of Maria Cahill, Jean McColville and so many thousands of others….and the fact your N.I. leader ( were there ever elections within the SF party to elect her as leader?) says there was "no alternative". Chilling stuff.

If you want to reduce the influence of religion on the state, why not start south of the border: you will find things worse than in N.I.

As I asked you before ( and you refused to answer):Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

In which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"? ( We are second only to Israel in the western world ).

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009502#Comment_122009502

If you want to reduce the influence of religion on the state, why not start south of the border: you will find things worse than in N.I.

Well I have done my bit. In every single social and societal change referendum I have voted against what the Catholic church was advocating.

p.s. No 'state' still has the Angelus on RTE. It is a 'call to prayer' and represents many religions and it has been endorsed by the Protestant Primate of Ireland.

Also: It is the government who are holding up closure on the Tuam babies case, not the RC church.

I want to see the government changed.

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2024/04/12/600-medically-fit-patients-stuck-in-ni-hospitals-due-to-lack-of-discharge-options/

It would be useful if Sinn Fein could get the finger out and sort some of the health care issues in the North. Until they do that, the cost of a united Ireland will only increase.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009589#Comment_122009589

Who is / was the "Protestant Primate of Ireland", as the Church of Ireland (Anglican) Primate does not represent Methodists, Presbyterians etc?

Archbishop Eames of the Church of Ireland welcomed the new version in 2009, but that was because it is less Roman Catholic than previous versions. Since 2009, the programme on television no longer includes Catholic imagery but the vast majority would still think of the Angelus as being something Catholic.

As regards the Tuam babies case, you can blame the state, the state can blame the Catholic Church, but ultimately the governments have been elected by the people. 800 babies / children there have no known graves, and in 2017, children's remains were found in a mass grave in the septic tank there. Did the same happen in other mother and babies homes in the state? Two years ago it was reported the remains of the children buried there in the mass unmarked grave in Tuam could be exhumed later that year under newly-published legislation, but to date nothing more has happened? You blame FF / FG, but when it comes to unmarked graves, comrades associated with your own SF party has an even worse track record?

Hard to fault so many in N.I. for not wanting a U.I. ( which would be under control from S.F. / army council ) on above grounds alone ( eg the catholic churches continued grip on primary school education ) , never mind economic grounds, security grounds etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009908#Comment_122009908

notably the Church of Ireland (although less prominent than in the Roman Catholic church the Angelus is also part of the Anglican/Episcopal tradition)[9] and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. Archbishop Eames of the Church of Ireland welcomed the new version in 2009.[10] The secretary of the mosque in Clonskeagh and the Chief Rabbi supported keeping the broadcast

Let's be honest here. Welcomed by Protestant, Presbyterian, Muslim and Jew.

In my opinion the only way to end the 'grip' of the RC church and that of the fundamentalist DUP and OO is to start afresh with a new unified state.
Lessons learned in both jurisdictions of the toxic influence of religious ideologies can be fed into a new constitution.