Why I'll say no to a united ireland

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033076#Comment_122033076

This isn't the 1920s and 1930s. Concern for victims was sadly absent then, a pity if you think we should live a century later by those standards.

A united Ireland does not happen without reconciliation. Reconciliation requires atonement and part of that is an end to the glorification of terrorism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033060#Comment_122033060

Brolly is making a fool of himself. He should stick to the football, but even there, he was a one-season wonder as a player.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033493#Comment_122033493

Are you going to tell us how you propose dealing with public commemorations and who will decide the definition of who inflicted terror in the conflict/war? Because anyone with knowledge of the matter knows that there are ordinary people who were not involved with paramilitaries who view the British state as the terrorist. There are those who see the Irish state as one involved in and supporting terrorism.

It's all very well and quite legitimate to have a personal distaste of some commemoration but how do you do it from a state point of view?

How do you decide who is allowed publicly commemorate/celebrate and who isn't?

Peregrinus

I think one of the aspects of reconciliation is accepting that different people have different views, that not everybody draws the "terrorist" line around the same set of acts that you draw it around, and that demanding that others must give priority to your view of the matter is no basis for progress.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033556#Comment_122033556

'Reconciliation' for some means capitulation to their view first, then we'll shake hands.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033343#Comment_122033343

Not surprised the first line of your response is attacking the man, not playing the ball. Who said they only done that in GAA games? lol.

GAA is part of nationalism in N.I. Anyone who is interested in Irish politics cannot ignore the GAA. I have never been to a GAA game and many people I know would never go to a GAA game or have any interest in it, but there are a lot of people "obsessed" with it. I remember a couple of lads in a canteen where I worked once, every break and lunch they would be talking GAA.

It was interesting all right to hear Jarleth Burns from the GAA comparing the OO with the GAA. He seems to me to be an honest man, although it was disappointing he refused to support the gaa to encourage young catholics to join the Psni, I guess he does not want to alienate himself from some of his grassroots in N.I. too much. It would be hard to picture a PSNI person being comfortable in social setting in a GAA club with drink taken if some Wolfe Tones chants like Uh Ah Up the RA start up.

I do not know why you are dragging Paisley and the DUP in to it: the DUP never banned members of the security forces or other government employees. Nor did they name grounds after paramilitaries etc.  

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033596#Comment_122033596

It was interesting all right to hear Jarleth Burns from the GAA comparing the OO with the GAA. He seems to me to be an honest man, although it was disappointing he refused to support the gaa to encourage young catholics to join the Psni, I guess he does not want to alienate himself from some of his grassroots in N.I. too much. It would be hard to picture a PSNI person being comfortable in social setting in a GAA club with drink taken if some Wolfe Tones chants like Uh Ah Up the RA start up.

Basically this ^ is, when he confirms my bias, he is an 'honest man', when he doesn't he is 'disappointing'.

Paisley btw, stood over a sectarian system of government and believed it didn't go far enough in subjugating Catholics. Do I hold Gavin Robinson responsible for that? No, I don't, just like previous leaders of the DUP, I will judge them on what they actually do and stand for.
*Jarlath Burns was being challenged on something that was done that he had no hand, act or part of, I mentioned doing the same to someone else.

Summitatem

United Ireland....no more ROI, new flag etc. No thank you. I like the ROI as it is. Approx 40% of the six counties don't want it either which is a huge issue apart from my own ones.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033504#Comment_122033504

How would you know the last part of that sentence to be true, if the GAA was a sectarian organization as claimed by many unionists?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033751#Comment_122033751

What do you mean by that?

I am neither a unionist nor a Protestant.

Nor a Catholic either.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033795#Comment_122033795

I'm an atheist, religion isn't what I'm talking about here, merely unionist or nationalist.

Multiple unionist posters have claimed on this thread that the GAA is a sectarian organization and only catholics and/or nationalists are allowed. As you have posted in the past here from a unionist point of view I assumed you were a unionist.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033823#Comment_122033823

Well, you see, that's the thing. I am a Dublin GAA season ticket holder.

That you automatically label someone with particular views in a certain way doesn't say anything about me.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033714#Comment_122033714

Judith Burns was also asked would he called for the many clubs named after slave traders, racist and antisemites to consider removing those names from above GAA clubs. He excepted that many cloves were named after racists and antisemites but said that they would not do that until some street in Belfast were renamed 😂😂😂

Very disappointing that he used so much whataboutery.
He also said that he thought the British had a moral responsibility to pay for casement Park because of the past, and referenced that helicopters landed in Crossmanglen Pitch.

he is either a big orange order admirer or he is completely disingenuous

it was interesting towards the end of the interview the diplomacy faded and he had several runts about the big bad British - mind you, he declared his love for the Bbc.

I would be really keen for some of you nationalists and Republicans to listen to the interview and give me a sense of whether you think the GAA is an inclusive organisation. This will give me a really good window as to what I should expect if there was a United Ireland and what you guys think you accept/claim as an inclusive island

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865342#Comment_121865342

I see he’s at it again. Had a underwhelming but well paid career on gb mainland and celebrates a win with his latest British team by singing fcuk the king!

The Brits continue to live rent free in his head

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033912#Comment_122033912

Just like the GAA in yours. But you cannot/will not recognise it as it's your schtick and identity.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033840#Comment_122033840

I think he very cogently made the case I am making - how do you commemorate and celebrate the dead now or if there is a UI, federal UI, or independent NI?
If the GAA must conform to your dictate are you prepared to conform to the dictate of others?

I.E. does the 'conversation' on this include the removal of commemoration and memorialisation of Chichester, Carson, Churchill, the monarchy and the British Army, not to mention commemorations of battles that defeated Catholics, bonfires of hate and sectarianism etc

What are your terms of reference on 'inclusiveness' in other words?

downcow

I don’t think you have ever heard me claiming that bonfires or 12th of July parades are inclusive. Everything does not need to be inclusive. It is absolutely fine for communities of interest to be exclusive. The problem is when organisations claim to be inclusive but are actually exclusive. This leads to all sorts of dilemmas eg the GAA president ends up affirming the orange order and saying that it’s not sectarian

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033964#Comment_122033964

He said he didn't know or couldn't say if it was sectarian or not. i.e. he was being diplomatic.
And Crawley made the point that they actually are linked to sectarianism. If you want to know if they are just look at their charter.

So your terms of reference for conversations on 'inclusivity' would actually exclude (handily enough) some groups or activities from that conversation?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033729#Comment_122033729

In the 6 counties, the percentage who want to remain part of the UK is higher than the 40% you say. In the last referendum on the matter up there, everyone was entitled to vote, and on a voter turn-out of 58.7 percent, 98.9 percent voted to remain in the U.K. meaning the outcome would not have been impacted without any nationalist boycott. Voter turnout in our last referendum, and most of our referendums, is less that 58.7%, and we do not crib about a boycott.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034351#Comment_122034351

It isn't 1973 anymore.

What perplexes me about constantly referencing this disgraced referendum is why you were surprised a statelet designed and gerrymandered to have an artificial Unionist majority and had a one party Unionist government from it's inception, decided to vote for the Union?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034036#Comment_122034036

Jarleth Burns was asked what he would say to those from a nationalist background who consider the Orange Order to be a sectarian organisation, and he said: “I would say the same to them, that I would say to those who would say the GAA is a sectarian organisation - we have to respect all of the culture that exists in Northern Ireland."

“For an awful lot of families, the Orange Order is something that goes right through their families, wearing the sash, walking in your area, it’s important."

Burns said the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists.

Jarlath Burns, who began his role as the head of the GAA in February, said it was “fully understandable” why GAA does not appeal to those from a unionist background when asked if the sporting group was a “cold house” for Protestants.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034389#Comment_122034389

So where does he say 'it is not sectarian'?

Which is the claim that was made.

Burns is free to respect the OO if he wishes. Personally I don't.

Personally, I don't respect everything the GAA does either.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034426#Comment_122034426

His comments are consistent with both the GAA and OO being sectarian. The OO have the same right to sectarian as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus. None of those are sporting organizations.

I am not surprised you say you don't respect everything the GAA does either. I bet you do not respect everything your SF does either : they could pay better?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034523#Comment_122034523

Nobody has 'a right to be sectarian'.

He can respect the OO, is all he said. Many can, many can't.
He made no determination on whether they were sectarian or not. Fact.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034642#Comment_122034642

He can also repect the GAA. Many can, many can't.

His comments are consistent with both the OO and GAA being sectarian to some degree. He said"

Here is what was written:

Jarleth Burns was asked what he would say to those from a nationalist background who consider the Orange Order to be a sectarian organisation, and he said: “I would say the same to them, that I would say to those who would say the GAA is a sectarian organisation - we have to respect all of the culture that exists in Northern Ireland."

“For an awful lot of families, the Orange Order is something that goes right through their families, wearing the sash, walking in your area, it’s important."

Burns said the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists.

Jarlath Burns, who began his role as the head of the GAA in February, said it was “fully understandable” why GAA does not appeal to those from a unionist background when asked if the sporting group was a “cold house” for Protestants.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034790#Comment_122034790

Jarlath Burns does not say that either organisation is sectarian, however he puts the two organisations into the same pot.

In his opinion, and it is a reasonable opinion, those that believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa. A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034790#Comment_122034790

Absolutely he can respect the GAA and many don't.

Whenever you find where he said 'the OO is not sectarian'. Post it up.

If he said it I'm happy to admit I was wrong.

You projecting stuff is not back up for downcow's erroneous claim.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034810#Comment_122034810

I do not think I wrote "the OO is not sectarian". Of course there are elements within it who are sectarian. Sectarianism is defined in one dictionary as very strong support for the religious or political group that you are a member of, which can cause problems between different groups.

Because of its large membership, of course there are people in it who are sectarian, same as there are people in the GAA who are sectarian. Is everyone in the OO or GAA sectarian? No, of course not. I know a few people in the GAA and they are definitely not sectarian.

The OO is also sectarian in that as far as I know it limits its membership on grounds of religion, same as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus does.

As blanch said, in J. Burns opinion, "and it is a reasonable opinion, those that believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa. A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow."

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034891#Comment_122034891

An organisation can have sectarian members.

The OO is sectarian by charter, it excludes via religion and it is not a church so comparisons to churches are of no significance.

The GAA does not exclude via religion.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034946#Comment_122034946

There is nothing stopping an organization discriminating on religous grounds -the OO have the same right to limit their membership on religious grounds as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus. None of those are sporting organizations. The OO sees itself as defending / promoting Protestant values and culture as they see it. Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus would see themselves as defending / promoting Catholic values and culture as they see it. Which is ok too. Nobody breaking the law. We live in a democracy.

Jarlath Burn's comments are consistent with both the GAA and OO being sectarian. Both are identified with one community only. There are probably as many Irish nationalists in the OO as there are unionists in the GAA. ( certainly well down in the single digit percentages anyway ).

" Jarleth Burns was asked what he would say to those from a nationalist background who consider the Orange Order to be a sectarian organisation, and he said: “I would say the same to them, that I would say to those who would say the GAA is a sectarian organisation - we have to respect all of the culture that exists in Northern Ireland."

“For an awful lot of families, the Orange Order is something that goes right through their families, wearing the sash, walking in your area, it’s important."

Burns said the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists.

Jarlath Burns, who began his role as the head of the GAA in February, said it was “fully understandable” why GAA does not appeal to those from a unionist background when asked if the sporting group was a “cold house” for Protestants."

The GAA have named some grounds after para-militaries from the troubles : I am not sure if the OO have done this, I do not think so, but we all know there are some bigots and sectarian people in both organizations.

Blanch made an interesting point when he / she said, in J. Burns opinion, "and it is a reasonable opinion, those that believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa. A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow." I see you are having difficulty swallowing it.