Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025941#Comment_122025941

You still have not answered my question as regards what you mean by  "unresolved killings". Would you include the 11 innocent Protestant workmen victims of the pIRA at Kingsmill to be "unresolved killings"?

"Unresolved" according to the dictionary can mean moot pending unanswered undecided undetermined unsettled unsolved….

I do not think you mean unsolved by unresolved, given that over 99% of explosions and 60% of deaths were caused by Republicans. Take the area of south east Co Fermanagh, for example During the troubles there were one hundred and sixteen deaths there, comprising of one hundred and two murders by pIRA, six members of pIRA losing their own lives in the midst of their own actions, and eight other cases, three of which have been cleared, five which remain outstanding.

Ninety five per cent of the murder cases by the pIRA there were not solved / nobody caught.  Yes people were suspected, but in those mayhem days before widespread cctv, advances in dna etc very hard to prove unless caught in the act. Which was unlikely, given the pIRA had the element of surprise and often attacked soft targets like off duty or retired individuals, and shot them in the back or put a bomb under their family car.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026536#Comment_122026536

Seems to me you are once again, terribly un-informed. Unresolved means have not been brought to trial.

What exactly is your point here? That State sponsored violence should be ignored because the IRA killed as well?

The figures speak for themselves.

Of the 1,186 killings that the PSNI’s Legacy Investigation Branch is assessing:

• 45.5% are attributed to republican paramilitaries.
• 23% are attributed to loyalist paramilitaries.
• 28.5% are attributed to the security forces.
• For the remaining 3% of deaths, the background of those primarily responsible is unknown.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026704#Comment_122026704

If your "unresolved" means " have not been brought to trial ", then you think that murders in self defence by the security forces are "unresolved" and you seeming think there is something wrong with that. For example there was a lone part time UDR soldier ( Eric Glass I think his name was) lured in to an IRA ambush in Co. Fermanagh while off duty : he fought back and killed one of his heavily armed pIRA ambushers, and the others fleed back across the border : you are presumably putting his killing of the armed pIRA ambusher as an "unresolved" killing by the security forces. I guess you even think that was "State sponsored violence" too.

Over 90% of the murders in Co. Fermanagh were by Republicans, and the vast majority remain un-resolved. Why do you not get the PSNI’s Legacy Investigation to investigate them?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026903#Comment_122026903

What exactly is your point here? That State sponsored violence should be ignored because the IRA killed as well?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026979#Comment_122026979

Are you claiming that an off duty UDR person who literally fought for his life when ambushed by a pIRA gang is "State sponsored violence"?

An off duty member had as much right to defend himself from armed pIRA ambushers who attempted to kill him, as a Garda who defended himself against pIRA attackers.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122027069#Comment_122027069

They are not my facts.

I am giving you figures from the British government themselves:

Of the 1,186 killings that the PSNI’s Legacy Investigation Branch is assessing:

• 45.5% are attributed to republican paramilitaries.
• 23% are attributed to loyalist paramilitaries.
• 28.5% are attributed to the security forces.
• For the remaining 3% of deaths, the background of those primarily responsible is unknown.

Make a point or don't, trying to cross examine me on British data will just be ignored.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026536#Comment_122026536

Ah yes, the failed ethnic cleansing of Fermanagh. I remember reading an academic article that tried to make the case that the PIRA actions were not ethnic cleansing. Basically, the argument was that they didn't kill enough people to cross the threshold of ethnic cleansing (but had all the other characteristics). In other words, it was a failed attempt at ethnic cleansing.

FrancieBrady

It is notable that some just want retribution around this issue.

As long as the Irish are subjugated and curtailed from commemorating or remembering, triumphalist and official commemoration of groups that killed or who were willing combatants in the conflict/war are ok or not worthy of mention. It's all about the biased narratives.

Conversations about commemoration cannot just revolve around or be deflected to what the IRA did or did not do.

Not one of those who want to deflect to the 'RA has a proposal about how people are to be allowed to remember, either in NI now or in a UI/Federal Ireland or an independent NI. All the people

Peregrinus

There is actually nothing you can do to stop people commemmorating their dead. And you shouldn't try, not least because its impossible and you're setting yourself up for failure. But also as a matter of principle; if they don't have the right to commemorate their dead then you don't have the right to commemorate yours, and is that really what you want?

In the Irish context, the most you can ask is that a state that aspires to be inclusive should not itself engage in divisive commemorations. In a united Ireland, individuals and groups should be equally free to commemmorate Republican dead or Loyalist dead and the State should defend their right to do so, but it itself should conduct only inclusive commemmorations.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028965#Comment_122028965

There is nothing wrong with families privately commemorating their loved ones.

However, the public celebrations and commemorations of Garda and prison officer killers are a different thing, especially when the relatives of those dead innocents are still walking around.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028851#Comment_122028851

People can remember relatives or friends privately no matter who they are / what they did.

No doubt the relatives of the people who flew the planes in to the twin towers on 9/11 can and do remember those who flew those planes.

Relatives of the bombers of the Le Mon restaurant for example, or the Bloody Friday or Guildford bombers, can and do remember the bombers privately.

There is no difference between those who bombed restaurants, shopping centers etc and those who "bombed" the twin towers on 9/11 ( with a flying bomb effectively, full of aviation fuel ) except one of scale.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030041#Comment_122030041

You cannot legislate on the basis of a one-sided narrative. That was part of the cause of the conflict/war in the first place.

All sides did awful things. All sides publicly commemorate their dead. We do it here, Unionists/Loyalists do it, the British do it too.

There is no officially agreed narrative of what happened in the conflict/war so legislating to curb one side is not possible unless you treat people as less equal than others.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029578#Comment_122029578

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030041#Comment_122030041

It doesn't matter. From the 1920s onwards we've had IRA commemmorations in IRL (and indeed in NI). However distasteful you find these, and however well-founded your distaste, you can't stop them without unacceptable infringements on rights of assembly and free expression. You just have to put on your big boy pants and accept that you share a country with people who have a different perspective on the conflict, and have neither the practical means nor the moral right to exclude them from the public square. And, in a united Ireland, that will very much cut both ways.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030152#Comment_122030152

Mainstream Unionists and British do not commemorate para-militaries, those who shot Gardai or Policemen, those who bombed restaurants and shopping centers etc.

Most decent people are appalled by those, as they are of those responsible for 9/11.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030358#Comment_122030358

Mainstream Unionists and British

….. commemorate those that killed, colluded, intimidated, gerrymandered, discriminated etc etc. I.E. those who caused the coflict/war and took part in it.

For instance, DUP MLA's propose official commemoration of the UDR, who, whether you like it or not are seen as a sectarian force who killed and who armed and aided paramilitaries.

The UUP have no problems with commemoration of the British Army, who, whether you like it or not are seen as a 'terrorist' partisan force by many in NI and indeed here in the south, given their actions over the decades and centuries they were here.

Two narratives with no agreement between the two sides. Even 100 years after our own independence Unionists and the Irish dispute the legitimacy of it (Arlene would not attend the official 1916 commemoration and M. D. Higgins as President would not attend a commemoration of partition and the founding of NI)

How do you propose to stop public commemorations?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030454#Comment_122030454

You cannot stop people remembering in private but there should be no state involvement in commemorating para-militaries, or sports grounds named after them etc.

No doubt the relatives of the 9/11 bombers remember and commemorate those who blew up the twin towers.

No doubt the relatives of the Bloody Friday, Le Mons, Guildford etc etc bombers remember and commemorate those who blew those places.

What most people find distasteful however are people like Garda killer Pearse McAuley ( who once got a standing ovation at a S.F. Ard Fheis ) having the Irish National flag on his coffin there a few weeks ago etc.

The vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of security force personnel who served in N.I. (and the Republic) acted within the law, otherwise the death toll etc would have been much worse.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030535#Comment_122030535

The 'vast majority' means nothing to the communities that were intimidated, discriminated against and killed by state sponsored forces.

That more people didn't die does not ease their pain either.

If you recognise the pain of one community and not the other…you are a part of the problem.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030196#Comment_122030196

Not an issue with commemorating something from centuries ago when the people affected are all dead, but there are living relatives of Jean McConville, Paul Quinn, Garda Fallon, Garda McCabe, Brian Stack etc., who are living with the memories of what the PIRA criminal thugs did.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030535#Comment_122030535

So i assume you were glad when charlie flanagans proposal to commerate the r.i.c/black and tans were kicked into touch?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030616#Comment_122030616

I recognise the pain of both communities ( for want of a better word - there were of course extremists in both communities as well as more middle of the road people ). However remember the words of the (catholic) Bishop of Derry during the troubles who said the greatest enemy of the Irish people was the IRA. He knew who the main problem was.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031076#Comment_122031076

And the people of Derry showed again and again what they thought of that via their votes.
Are you making Roman Catholic priests/bishops the oracle again in Ireland? It's just another opinion.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031076#Comment_122031076

And during the troubles, that was reflected in the extremely low support that Sinn Fein got in elections. It was only when the PIRA stopped killing people randomly that SF got a surge in support.

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2024/04/17/jarlath-kearney-two-states-one-system-a-novel-idea-worth-considering/

The federal and confederal solutions that I have been suggesting for several years are now becoming mainstream.

"There’s a predictable sameness about the usual reaction from nationalist quarters to such propositions: they denounce them as another version of the unionist ‘veto’ and demand that any discussion of them be closed down. The only veto this results in is a veto on constructive thinking! The claim is also made that such ideas are in breach of the ‘holy grail’ of the Good Friday Agreement, even though Ireland’s Future can also be cavalier with the GFA (as I pointed out in my last blog), and anyway that mould-breaking accord has a specific section allowing for a review by the two governments in the event of difficulties arising."

This pretty much accurately reflects the reaction I have got on here for putting forward the ideas that are heretical to the good republicans.

downcow

…..and again the question, what is the benifit of a ui?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030696#Comment_122030696

And it was equally true in the 1920s and 1930s that there were living people affected by what participants had done in the War of Independence and the Civil War, but we had commemorations then too.

Indeed, right now in NI people have to deal with the fact that these commemorations happen. Whatever your views about commemorations of this kind, they're no basis for opposing or rejecting a united Ireland, since they happen independently of whether Ireland is united or not.

Peregrinus

There's not much point in asking that question unless you also offer an answer to the obvious parallel question; what is the point of a United Kingdom?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033077#Comment_122033077

that’s a very poor answer. At best it supports the status quo.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033086#Comment_122033086

Ironically, "at best it supports the status quo" looks a lot like someone's argument in favour of the maintenance of the United Kingdom.

(It would be a very poor argument, obviously.)

downcow

very interesting 1 hour interview with jarleth burns (gaa) on talkback radio Ulster.
lovely guy but reinforced everything I believe about the gaa. More importantly gives a great insight into what a ui might look like.
he described it as inclusive because it has a rule that says it is inclusive (at one point I thought it was francie masquerading as gaa president 😂).
I have got lambasted on here for comparing the gaa to the oo. I wasn’t counting, jarleth made the comparison maybe 10 times.
it actually reminded me of when you have terrorists from both sides on a dialogue programme, they spend most of the time affirming each other (what else can they do).
Jarleth affirmed the oo and their ‘great work’ and the equivalence of loyalist bands and lodges with gaa clubs.
I agree with almost every word he spoke. The interviewer was William crawly, Irish speaker and ui supporter and Protestant, yet he told jarleth that he had never ever been to a gaa game.
Lots of points to numerous to mention Eg he refused to support gaa to encourage young catholics to join the Psni His justification was that the gaa didn’t meddle in members lives - crawly pointed out that they had a rule previously banning people from joining 😂😂😂

So really interesting and worth a listen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001y8xx

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033088#Comment_122033088

Surely this is a case of man who claims not to be interested in the GAA is obsessed with the GAA,

The big take away here is your impossible positioning - the position of someone who likes to sit on the high moral ground.

I.E, Someone or a group moves on and changes how they behave (i.e. Burns point about the GAA not 'meddling in people's lives' is met with 'oh but away back in the past you had a ban') is held responsible for things not of his doing.
Why not judge the man and the way he runs the GAA during his tenure?

It would be like holding Gavin Robinson responsible for the way Ian Paisley ran the DUP.