Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035240#Comment_122035240

There is nothing stopping an organization discriminating on religous grounds -the OO have the same right to limit their membership on religous grounds as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus. 

If you want a society like that then don't complain when they inflict their fundamentalism on that society.
That is what happened here and in NI.

Funny you complain about it endlessly here but not in NI.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035240#Comment_122035240

People are entitled to hold a different opinion to Jarlath Burns, but it is clear that he equated the OO and the GAA in terms of sectarianism. As the President of the GAA, he probably has a lot more knowledge than either you or the other Francie, but anyone who wants to present a different opinion would really want to put up some evidence.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035263#Comment_122035263

True enough. And as President of the GAA, he probably has seen first hand some sectarianism first hand over the years, from both sides.

It is important not to tar all the people in both organizations as being sectarian, I would say there are plenty of decent people in each who are not sectarian. I even know a few Catholics in the Freemasons too : the Masonic order does allow Catholics join, as well as Jews or Muslims. All decent people afaik.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035263#Comment_122035263

I presented the evidence.
The GAA are not constitutionally or via charter, sectarian. They do not exclude other religions. The OO is fundamentally sectarian and are deeply embedded in politics.

As already said, the GAA have had members and clubs who did things that were sectarian. That is not in dispute. They do not involve themselves, as Burns also said, in politics.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035344#Comment_122035344

The OO exclude other religions the same as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus do.

As regards your astounding claim that the GAA do not involve themselves in politics, I pointed out to you before unfortunately the GAA is was always politicised. The GAA has political objectives. It has ground named after terrorists, and banned people from membership because they worked for a certain government (security forces). In its Official Guide, Part 1, containing the Constitution and Rules, Chapter 1.2 says, “The Association has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32-County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”

In the preamble to the rules, the GAA writes “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.”

At Chapter 1.8(a) the Official Guide says “The National Flag [ie the Irish Tricolour] should be flown at games in accordance with protocol.”

At 1.8(b): “Where the National Anthem [ie the Soldier’s Song] precedes a game, teams shall stand to attention, facing the Flag, in a respectful manner.”

This is an organisation with an exceptionally strong Irish nationalist/republican ethos. Even Casement Park itself in Belfast is named after the traitor, Roger Casement, who was notorious for attempting to raise an Irish Brigade to fight for Germany during WW1 from among Irish members of the British Army held as POWs in Germany. This at a time when over 100,000 people had volunteered for the British Army from all over the island of Ireland. And has not the GAA grounds named after terrorists from the late 20th century too?

And you claim the GAA does not involve itself in politics?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035405#Comment_122035405

The OO exclude other religions the same as Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus do.

Then they are sectarian too.

P.S. Do you understand the difference between a cultural and political organisation?

Burns, addressed this too. The GAA have not involved themselves in politics since Parnellite times because he said 'it cost them membership'.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035431#Comment_122035431

If they do not involve themselves in politics why the following, for example:

Why have grounds named after terrorists, and why ban people from membership because they worked for a certain government (security forces)? In its Official Guide, Part 1, containing the Constitution and Rules, Chapter 1.2 says, “The Association has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32-County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”

In the preamble to the rules, the GAA writes “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.”

At Chapter 1.8(a) the Official Guide says “The National Flag [ie the Irish Tricolour] should be flown at games in accordance with protocol.”

At 1.8(b): “Where the National Anthem [ie the Soldier’s Song] precedes a game, teams shall stand to attention, facing the Flag, in a respectful manner.”

The GAA is more than just a sporting organization. I however agree with its head J. Burns opinion, "and it is a reasonable opinion, those that believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa." A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035460#Comment_122035460

As Burns said, The GAA was always a 32 county Org. It is a cultural aspiration to strengthen identity not a political one.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035473#Comment_122035473

There are plenty of sporting organizations in other sports who are 32 county organizations but who were never involved in politics etc like GAA was eg banning policemen who worked for the N. I. government, the strict flying of the tricolour in a different jurisdiction, players kissing the bishops ring etc. What other sport has in its preamble to the rules,the following written “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.” Only the GAA of course.

At least Burns was honest when he said the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists.

If it stopped chanting Uh ah up the Ra and other wolfe tones songs sometimes in clubhouses, did not name some grounds after para-militaries etc that would be a help.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035496#Comment_122035496

We are discussing the GAA as an organisation.
Yes it needs to be on guard in terms of sectarianism as do all organisations, it needs to be on guard about many things.

Take bullying for instance. Does the fact bullies exist in the organisation make the organisation a bully.
Of course it doesn't.
If it's charter said 'Bullying is ok by us', then you might have a case.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035526#Comment_122035526

What, do the Ancient Order of Hibernians (which has frequently been referred to as a Catholic equivalent of the Orange Order), Opus Dei The Knights of St. Columbanus, the O.O. etc all have charters saying "Bullying is ok by us"? Do they name their facilities after para-militaries, sing Uh Ah up the Ra in clubhouses etc, have they banned policemen from being members,etc? I doubt it.

What other sporting organization is as Nationalist as the GAA?   Do you not agree with GAA leader Burns when he said recently the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists?

 

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035572#Comment_122035572

So you accepted what Burns said when it confirmed your bias but not what he had to say about the tradition of naming teams, trophies and grounds after deceased members, members who died in all sorts of ways?

blanch152

The GAA as an organisation (and don't try and say that clubs are not the GAA) commemorates terrorists and terrorism, it is involved in politics. It banned members of the security forces in the North. You don't have to have it written in your constitution to be sectarian, words and deeds are enough.

At best, the GAA is divisive.

That doesn't cause a problem for me as a Dublin GAA supporter, because I am not trying to unite the island. It is supremely ironic that the poster who spends their life on these boards promoting SF's vision of a united Ireland is the one defending the GAA when they should be the one looking for it to change so that it embraces all. Of course, that irony will be completely lost on them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035852#Comment_122035852

Again, only hearing what you want to hear.
The GAA rule is a 'name' must have a 2/3rds majority.
That is what happens in all namings.
Are you suggesting they should have a committee who can over rule the membership?
That would make it a different type of organisation.

Your definitions of terrorists are your own.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035852#Comment_122035852

In the nicest way possible, you absolute fecking hypocrite Blanch.

That doesn't cause a problem for me as a Dublin GAA supporter, because I am not trying to unite the island

The amount of posts you've made specifically about it being more important to unite the people of this island than to unite it politically, and now you come out with this?

What happened to the Blanch who aggressively argued against being called a Partitionist because he did support Unification, just not Shinner Unification?

What happened to the Blanch that argued so ferociously against anything that could remotely be construed as sectarian in Ulster GAA?

Now that you're put on the spot, you're desperately trying to ride both horses; you want to have the anti-Unification argument of criticising the GAA, but hold on to your own precious Dublin GAA? You're fine with sectarianism all of a sudden as long as the Dubs keep winning and we'll just pretend you've never spoke about uniting the people of this island; Irish, British and other?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034642#Comment_122034642

that is absolutely not all he said.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034946#Comment_122034946

Wrong francie. Even nationalist Crawley said that unionists could not currently be members because its constitution states they must work for a united ireland, which obviously a unionist cannot do. That is sectarian in the ni context.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035526#Comment_122035526

its charter says unionists cannot remain unionist and be members. It’s that simple.

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036510#Comment_122036510

Could you link to the charter and note the paragraph which says unionists can't be members while remaining unionists?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036499#Comment_122036499

There you go again.

Because Crawley interviews and debates without an agenda, i.e. he will call out unionist, nationalist, loyalist, republican he is a 'nationalist'.

He was corrected on that by the way on the 'GAA is and always was a 32 county entity'. It calls on its members to foster an Irish 'cultural' identity, it does not ask anyone to support the political union of Ireland. Hasn't worked on blanch if it's an abiding rule, has it?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036528#Comment_122036528

let’s take this one step at a time for you.

Do you agree that implicit through out the gaa aims, rules, etc is the aim of supporting / promoting a cohesive Irish identity across the island including dance, music, sport?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037198#Comment_122037198

You claimed that: its constitution states they must work for a united ireland.

Still waiting for verification of this.

It's shown to be nonsense as on this very forum we have a member of the GAA who does not 'work for a united Ireland'.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037221#Comment_122037221

As explained to you before FrancieBrady, according to paragraph 2.1, members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA".

What are the aims and objects of the GAA, asks you ( as if you do not know already). The current version of the GAA constitution, as approved on June 3, 2011, states that: "GAA games are more than games - they have a national significance - and the promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national ideal."

The GAA's vision is the creation of a 32-county Gaelic Ireland, and GAA games are an assertion of Irish nationhood. The strict rules about the flying of the Irish tricolour and the singing of the national anthem of the Irish Republic, as set out in the GAA constitution, are expressions of its Irish nationalist political viewpoint.

In the introduction to the constitution, it states: "Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland's claim to nationhood is impaired." The very existence of N. I. as part of the U. K. is described by the GAA as an "impairment".

At least the current head of the GAA has confirmed what many people think, in N.I. the O. O. and the GAA are the flipside of the one coin.  They both have a role in their own communities. One supports the Union of the UK, the other supports a U. I. They are both community organisations and, in some communities, especially in rural areas, their halls / clubhouses are important centres for community activity. Let us be honest, a nationalist is going to feel very uncomfortable in the O.O. and a unionist is going to feel very uncomfortable in the GAA.

At least Burns (head of the GAA) was honest when he admitted the GAA had some distance to go in order to appeal to unionists, or words to that effect. He said it was “fully understandable” why GAA does not appeal to those from a unionist background when asked if the sporting group was a “cold house” for Protestants.

You may not think naming grounds after Republican para-militaries or chanting "Uh ah Up the Ra" in clubhouses is offensive to unionists, but that just helps show how long it will be before there will be a U.I. (several generations at least).

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037626#Comment_122037626

The aspiration to maintain the UK Union is a legitimate one.
Nobody requires a Unionist to not be a Unionist anymore.

Nobody is asking the OO to drop it's culture or it's adherence to the Union. They are being asked not to be sectarian in it's charter.

There is nothing illegitimate about aspiring to maintain the Irish identity and it's sports. There is nothing illegitimate about the concept of an 'Irish Nation' that includes the 32 counties just as there is nothing (in a Unionist's mind) illegitimate about a UK that includes NI.

The GAA is inclusive, it has members from many religions, including all the main ones practiced on these islands. It also has many identities playing their games. The PSNI and the RUC had GAA teams. It even has Unionists playing their games and the only people with a problem about that is other Unionists.

What Burns probably meant about more work has to be done, was that the ^ above should be more known about, not the sensationalist 'clubs named after terrorists' nonsense. Nobody has named a club after a 'terrorist'. Those people don't see their former members as 'terrorists', that is the simple truth of the matter.
The idea that downcow has in his head that members must aspire and work towards a UI has to be dispelled. The GAA does not have a rule or ask that of any member…ask blanch.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037739#Comment_122037739

So members can disregard paragraph 2.1, where members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA"?

Given the aims and objects of the GAA, I could see many Unionists being uncomfortable with that in N.I. Which is one of the reasons you would get so few, if any, unionists playing GAA. Maybe a few closet unionists, ones who would keeps their heads down if / when chants of "Uh Ah Up the Ra" break out after a few drinks.

You say "Nobody has named a club after a 'terrorist'. Those people don't see their former members as 'terrorists". Sorry FrancieBrady, I would say most if not all unionists would see pIRA members as terrorists, and see GAA grounds named after pIRA men as being named after terrorists.

In the Arab world some or many people there may not see those who flew the planes full of aviation fuel in to the twin towers on 9/11 as "terrorists". But most of the western world would, I bet.

You may not see those who bombed Enniskillen, Le Mons, Guildford etc as terrorists but many people in these islands would. And no other sports name their grounds after such people, or have banned policemen from becoming members etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037819#Comment_122037819

Nobody is going to apologise for promoting the Irish culture and sporting tradition which has been a part of the cultural activity on this island of Ireland long before partition.

Nobody now, or in a future UI, federal Ui, or independent NI is asking a Unionist to apologise for being a Unionist or for having Unionist/British aspirations and identity.

If the GAA is what you say it is, what are people like blanch doing in the GAA? He sees no value in the preservation of the Irish language, sees no value or reason for a UI, he just enjoys the games and what they offer.

Nobody is asking a Chinese GAA player to cast off his/her identity or his/her religious faith either.

Ditto a Muslim, a Hindu or a Protestant republican or protestant unionist. They play the games under no onus to subscribe to some nefarious hidden agenda.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037887#Comment_122037887

In a organization of tens of thousands / hundreds of thousands you different shades of opinion…it does not matter if it is the O.O. or the GAA. You get some extremists but I suspect many if not most people are just plodding along doing their best for themselves and their families. I have some friends in the GAA, they could not care less about politics or a U.I., they were fundraising for their local club a few times and I gave them some money. No big deal. If it was a stranger looking for money for the GAA I would refuse ( there is a limited number of clubs and charities I support) but I value the friends friendship and I supported their raffle and table quiz. I would suspect the average GAA member and club south of the border (where I am) are different in some ways to GAA members / clubs north of the border ( more likely to be Republicans / SF supporters in N.I.).

However we are talking about the organizations themselves, the GAA and OO. You say "Nobody now, or in a future UI, federal Ui, or independent NI is asking a Unionist to apologise for being a Unionist or for having Unionist/British aspirations and identity.". However, actions speak louder than words. Even moderate Protestants have had a hard time in the GAA, have found it a cold house ( and that is even without them expressing any unionist sentiments - imagine if they were Protestant Unionists!).

As I asked you before, what do you think of young Darren Graham, the Protestant Fermanagh under-21 county footballer (whose father and two uncles, members of the UDR, had been murdered by the IRA) who gave up Gaelic football in 2007 after years of sectarian abuse.

Even in Co. Monaghan you found one C of I GAA player, but it was reported in national media he suffered sectarian abuse in the GAA. It was reported "Cavan midfielder Gearoit McKiernan was handed a two-match ban after being found to have verbally abused Ryan who is a Protestant using sectarian language."

Of his brother, another quote " This is the third year in a row that Drew has had to suffer sectarian abuse on the playing field."

And you claim unionists would be tolerated in the GAA, and you say they can disregard the GAA rules paragraph 2.1, where members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA".

Pull the other one FrancieBrady. At least the head of the GAA was honest when he compared the GAA with the OO. And there are many decent, reasonable and democratic people in both I am sure who just do it because it is part of their culture, and because of friends, and perhaps a family tradition, and something to do.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038113#Comment_122038113

Wait now, is it Unionists or Protestants we are talking about?

Nobody has denied that there are incidents of abuse, they are not indicative of the organisation as a whole though. Referees get abuse, players/managers get abuse for all sorts of reasons.
The abusers are idiots.
Graham rejoined the GAA from what I know of the case. Not reported by a media interested in the sensational though.
The Drew's are still stalwart members and hugely revered players in my county.
Yopu jumped on that story and sensationally claimed that is all the protestants playing GAA in Monaghan. Of course that was your disingenuousness coming to the fore. The lovely and satisfying fact is they are the only ones I happen to know are protestants as religion simply doesn't matter generally here. There could be a hundred or a thousand…who cares to check in a modern inclusive society? Nobody cares what religion you are.

If you are only interested in the sensational, that is all you will see.

You will also see lies as the truth. I.E. Downcow and the rule saying you must support a UI.
Utter nonsense of course that Burns will attempt to dispel and contradict.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038182#Comment_122038182

You ask is it "Unionists or Protestants we are talking about". well, the cases mentioned were just Protestants - if the Protestants concerned disclosed that they were Unionists I would imagine they would have got double the abuse. What would a unionist be doing in the GAA anyway, when the ethos of the organization is nationalist, and when GAA rules paragraph 2.1, stipulate where members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA".

Of course there could be some unionists, sez you, who would not mind GAA grounds named after terrorists, who loves the strict rules about the tricolour and soldiers song, and who would join in the singing of "Uh Ah Up the Ra" in the clubhouse after a few drinks.

Choochtown

Linda Irvine is a well-known Unionist.

She is the former chairperson and current president of East Belfast GAA club.

Whataboutery followed by Copy / Paste gibberish incoming from Francis in 3 … 2 … 1….