Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010031#Comment_122010031

What do you mean the "grip" of the OO?

The OO is not the patron of 89% of primary schools in NI, unlike the situation with the RCC south of the border?

In N.I. the OO does not have kids spending 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

In N.I. there is no version of the Angelus on tv and radio?

In N.I. the OO was not responsible for eg the 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank, or the failure recover them and bury them properly?

In N.I. the OO does not bless the planes at the airport there annually?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010559#Comment_122010559

I did a goggle search for you to begin your research on the political influence of the OO. Make of it what you will. I am certainly not going to bog down the thread arguing with you on this.
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+political+influnce+of+the+Orange+Order&oq=the+political+influnce+of+the+Orange+Order&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKAB0gEJMTEyMjNqMGo3qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010586#Comment_122010586

So we can conclude it was and is not as much as the Catholic Church in Ireland, not by a long shot.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010824#Comment_122010824

The Catholic church certainly had the kind of influence outlined in the myriad of studies in that link.
Not so much anymore though.

The OO influenced DUP is still attempting to block the rights enjoyed by all the other peoples of these islands and Europe based on religious fundamentalist principles.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002912#Comment_122002912

I have to admit I get a good chuckle out of that posters classic projection when he throws out his belligerence jabs.

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2024/04/05/after-donaldson-the-question-remains-how-do-we-feed-future-generations-of-those-who-live-in-northern-ireland/

An interesting take on the State of the Union. Essentially, the health of the union is not linked to the health of the DUP, because people don't really believe a united Ireland is on its way.

"there’s an odd continuity in the crisis that the DUP faces. They are the largest unionist party, yet that no longer confers the status it once did.

Pro union voters are no longer afraid of a United Ireland, not least because, in many cases none of them seem to believe that it is even remotely likely. Nor are they motivated by stopping Sinn Féin.

Yet, it is obvious that in spite of the hopes of many within organised nationalism this is leading neither to the collapse of the United Kingdom nor any new hankering for unity with the south."

Many pro-union voters are happy to let Michelle have her stint as First Minister because it doesn't mean anything - a sign of maturity among many parts of the North, also a sign that people of Northern Ireland embrace both sides of their heritage to create a new symbiotic culture.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010848#Comment_122010848

As noted before, the influence of the OO in N.I. is still nothing like the influence of the Catholic church still even to this day here in the Republic.

The OO is not the patron of 89% of primary schools in NI, unlike the situation with the RCC south of the border.

In N.I. the OO does not have kids spending 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious indoctrination / instruction.

In N.I. there is no version of the Angelus on tv and radio.

In N.I. the OO was not responsible for eg the 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank, or the failure recover them and bury them properly. Look at the mothers and baby home scandal in Tuam, Co Galway, where the bodies are still literally covered up in the septic tank.

In N.I. the OO does not bless the planes at the airport there annually.

Amazing you could compare the two.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011020#Comment_122011020

As noted before, the influence of the OO in N.I. is still nothing like the influence of the Catholic church still even to this day here in the Republic.

I disagree and I think most historians would too.
Read those articles and your history and then maybe give as long a list of historians and analysts saying the opposite?

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009725#Comment_122009725

I'm no fan of Sinn Fein but for a party thats only been in power approx 10 weeks it's telling that you've pinned the blame on them and not on their predecessors.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010824#Comment_122010824

For someone who claims to "have read more history books than a poster had had hot dinners", they obviously weren't books regarding Northern Ireland, and/or Ireland for that matter. I await the copy and paste bs response.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011066#Comment_122011066

What historians disagree with the facts? Even to this day 89% of primary schools in the state are under Catholic patrinage. Do not forget that due largely to the strong influence of Catholic teaching, Ireland legalised divorce and contraception much later than other EU states.

https://www.jcfj.ie/article/the-catholic-church-the-state-and-society-in-independent-ireland-1922-2022/

As someone else said "When the pope last came to Ireland in 1979, Catholic authorities were implacably against divorce, abortion, homosexual intercourse, sex before marriage, artificial contraception, married priests, women clergy, gay clergy, IVF, euthanasia, integrated schooling and transferring ownership of education and health to state authorities."

Decades later, little has changed.

"The only thing that has changed is their attitude towards child sex abuse. And that’s only because they were shamed into it. They tried every trick in the book to prevent the full truth getting out. The revelations came in slowly, each one worse than before, each one devastating in its own right. A glacial tsunami of ****. In the end, all was covered in a murky brown stain, impossible to wash away. They had no choice but to address the issues, lest they lose all credibility."

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011189#Comment_122011189

Which has what to do with the OO's influence on politics in the north?

I am somebody who believes the last vestiges of RC influence in the south must be removed Francis. I agree they still have some influence.
Why you think telling me stuff I know is some sort of argument defeats me.

I think the best way to remove the influence of religious bodies on this island is to create a new state under a new constitution to do just that.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011221#Comment_122011221

My point was should'nt the State south of the border get its own house in order before looking north of the border? The influence if the Catholic church here was and even still remains much more that the influence of the OO in N.I.

As I said, you constantly waffling about how " UI represents a tremendous opportunity to constitutionally restrict that influence " is like Hitler waffling about how a Europe under Nazi control would be represents a tremendous opportunity to constitutionally improve Europe etc. Actions speak louder than words.  

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011361#Comment_122011361

Mods-I hereby request Godwins law is invoked

You have a reason to close the thread

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011361#Comment_122011361

As I said, the FF FG governments don't seem to want to fully break the influence. The UK won't take on the religious fundamentalism of the DUP/OO.

Seems to our best chance to remove the influence finally in both jurisdictions with root and branch reforms and a new constitution.

What it has to do with Hitler escapes me. The British thought they could do it to their colonies mind you, but that didn't work out all that well for them, as they neglected to involve all the people in the decisions.

downcow

it’s interesting that clearly places like Canada still very much enjoy their membership of the Commonwealth.

I would think Ireland would be allowed in if it applied.
https://x.com/teamunion_uk/status/1778774464508952718?s=46

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011975#Comment_122011975

I can only imagine the self amusing pathetic chuckle you get from posts like this.

I await the usual disingenuous feigning of “I don’t know what you mean”

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011975#Comment_122011975

I think you mean 'some' in Canada. Different perspectives here.

The ascension of King Charles III exposed the monarchy’s many wounds of colonial crimes, and his lack of relevance to Canadians as a white, foreign, privileged, English-speaking man reignited a fury of debate amongst Canadians. It has left the nation questioning if the time has come to cut ties with the monarchy and abandon a current system of government that elevates the Royal Family to the helm, despite it being an inaccurate depiction of Canada—one of the world’s most diverse and multilingual nations.

The system of government Canada follows that props up a leader who inaccurately mirrors the nation is common practice amongst British Commonwealths. It is called a Constitutional Monarchy, where the Crown, presently King Charles III, is the sovereign authority. The Crown is granted the power to govern and rule Canada but chooses to entrust this responsibility of governing, temporarily, to the Prime Minister. This system places the Crown above politics and democracy bestowing them as the source of power in Canada’s three branches of government.

https://hir.harvard.edu/god-save-the-king-not-the-monarchy-canada-is-ready-to-find-a-path-beyond-the-crown/

https://globalnews.ca/news/8418373/can-canada-become-a-republic/

Seadin

Its never going to happen a United Ireland, the troubles would return if it did. Northern Ireland will become independent from UK and rule itself before joining the Republic.

We would need to change the flag and national anthem. We can't use the tricolour just like we cant use the union jack. Everything would have to be equal, would you be happy of having orange parades in the ROI? The rugby flag is way to go with the shamrock and the 4 provinces. That's the best we can try and get to include all under the one.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012555#Comment_122012555

We do have orange parades in the Republic. There was even marching bands in this years dublins patricks parade.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010981#Comment_122010981

very true

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012555#Comment_122012555

would you be happy of having orange parades in the ROI? 

Why not? If they have respect for those around them, march away.

downcow

we hear plenty on here about the need for truth. Here the sectarian IRA had their chance, but lived up to their I Ran Away tag. But sure Michelle says there was no alternative to killing these 10 people - and by extension the O’Dowd and Reavy murders. A sad statement from a First Minister of any democracy

https://x.com/beattiedoug/status/1779071414978355438?s=46

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013294#Comment_122013294

I can guess why Unionism victimhood is on the rise but in a UI/new state context and even if nothing changes constitutionally we have to accept the awfulness of the conflict/war for every community and try to ensure that society doesn't go up in flames ever again.

That includes my own community using victims to score political points. That also includes accepting that the conflict/war got so bad that the people who carried out Kingsmills, Loughlin Island etc didn't see any alternative to tit for tat atrocities.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013407#Comment_122013407

The IRA border campaign of 1956-1962 and the pIRA campaign during the period referred to as "the troubles" was not tit for tat : the IRA said it was a campaign to get "the British out of Ireland." It is worth noting the weapons used at Kingsmill were linked to 110 other attacks. And the pIRA had the audacity to claim it was not involved in sectarian ethnic cleansing. Of course it was.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013455#Comment_122013455

Was it a tit for tat sectarian killing? - yes it was. We knew that since it happened.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013464#Comment_122013464

That is not what I said. Read again. I wrote that the IRA border campaign of 1956-1962 and the pIRA campaign during the period referred to as "the troubles" was not tit for tat : the IRA said it was a campaign to get "the British out of Ireland." The IRA campaign was out of proportion ( they killed 10 innocent Protestants at Kingsmill and an 11 th survived despite being shot 18 times….and told the catholic in the mini-bus to run away). Loyalists shot 5 and killed the day before, (believing some of them at least to be involved in the IRA) and in retaliation for some other murders by the pIRA. All the murders were totally wrong.

At least you are now acknowledging that the pIRA was involved in sectarian murders / ethnic cleansing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013519#Comment_122013519

The IRA responded to partition by threat of violence.

The violence was all wrong from the beginning.

p.s. If you want me to find posts where I acknowledged to you that the IRA cxarried out some sectarian acts, just shout.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013590#Comment_122013590

You say "the IRA responded to partition by threat of violence." So attacks like Kingsmill were not just "tit for tat" ( the loyalists had not killed 10 the previous day in retaliation for some pIRA murders before than) but the IRA you say "responded to partition" by "threat of violence" by which you presumably include the offensive IRA attacks during the forties ( leading to internment on both sides of the border then), during the 1956-62 IRA border campaign ( leading to internment on both sides of the border then) and thousands of attacks during the "troubles" which many perceive to have been ethnic cleansing by the pIRA.

Interesting you still never condemned the pIRA: like Gerry Adams you just condemned the violence from the other side and said all violence was wrong etc. But there was "no alternative" to the military action of the pIRA, says you.

pureza

Kingsmill may have been carried out by IRA personel but it wouldnt have been an authorised operation,I would think

In the hell fire of tit for tat that was going on up north back then,some people who had access to weapons got angry

If it was an actual santioned IRA operation that had the wrong inteligence or something,the perpetrators if caught would have been GFA released from jail

Theres a reason we had a GFA you know

To put a stop to these atrocities

I'd agree with Sinn Féin's idea of a truth snd reconciliation tribunal South Africa style to put these remembrance angers to bed

Its going to have to be a pre requirement to a UI anyway

The conflict is done with nearly a quarter century,save a few lunatic fringe elements