EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622722#Comment_120622722

Reuse is always better than recycling. If your worried about colbalt usage we should probably end its use in single use applications such as the de sulpherisation of refined petroleum. The EV industry is already reducing cobalt use primarily due to cost reasons.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622722#Comment_120622722

Remember the 3 "R"s are in order of preference/priority.

Reduce

Reuse

Recycle

When something is being used, such as the case of a car battery being reused in an EV conversion, or power wall, it need not be recycled.

Do you know of cases where EV batteries are not being reused, or recycled? The only type of case I can think of is where the battery itself has been completely destroyed by fire.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689406#Comment_120689406

75,000,000 cars were sold last year.

Without some battery innovation that requires very little rare earth minerals it's not possible to make batteries for all those cars year after year and then heavy vehicles etc

The uturn on ICE ban will happen soon enough, 2030 is all bluff, it was never going to happen, personally I think massive amounts of money should have been put into to solar and battery tech years ago before mass producing EV's, covid style money to get us self sufficient, solar panels today are rubbish, between 17% and 20% efficient, if they weren't so rubbish then maybe 2030 wouldn't have been so outlandish.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689631#Comment_120689631

You'll be delighted to find out that current EV batteries do not contain any rare earth materials. I guess that's removed the only blocker to you embracing EVs.

Mr Q

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689631#Comment_120689631

On the solar efficiency does it really matter for the majority of installs? If you had 40% efficient panels they would just use half the space, they might not cost less per watt. More than likely the opposite. Of course for commercial scale solar farms it would matter a lot more.

But for domestic users most have room to put in as much panels as their inverter/ESBN will allow.

The efficiency is improving very slowly.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689694#Comment_120689694

Lithium supply will still remain an issue, LFP won't resolve that, lithium shortages will come, a lot of the places barely have enough water as it is. The process of getting lithium consumes a lot of water and energy, and lithium mining can pollute the air and water with chemicals and heavy metals.

Batteries tech will have to improve

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689785#Comment_120689785

Once again it seems like you are getting your anti-ev talking points from low quality Facebook fud. The rare earth materials in batteries (of which there are none) is a common trope. Similarly the feigned concern for the environment but only as it pertains to the extraction of resources when used for batteries but for some reason only when those batteries have an automotive used.

Extraction of any resource takes energy and resources, why is it only when they are used to build products that have extremely high material recovery rates at end of life that you have a problem. Can you provide any third party analysis showing that their are major concerns for exhaustion of lithium resources? You should probably do some research into environmental impact of oil extraction, you'll probably be very surprised to find that it's extracted from the earth, processed, transported around the world all with significant energy use and then can only be used once.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689785#Comment_120689785

I don't believe Lithium supply will be the problem you hope it will be. We continue to innovate in Li extraction and there is already plenty of Li that is easily accessible to us that we know of. We can also recover Li from spent batteries (something we can't do with fossil fuels) allowing us to reuse it again and again and again. We will have production delays rather than Li shortages. Extracting any resource carries an element of damage and pollution, but Li extraction is far less of a problem than extraction of Oil and Gas. The process itself will become more efficient and that's before we start talking about the efficiency difference between the average EV (75-80% and higher) and ICE (20-25% best case).

Battery tech is improving at a rapid pace. We no longer need rare earth materials, like Cobalt...the thing most nay sayers used to put down battery tech, while ignoring the many wars fought in the past and to this day over fossil fuels.

Here is a balanced view on the subject which I think you can get behind

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690325#Comment_120690325

Google lithium water issues, many articles on it

The Paradox of Lithium (columbia.edu)

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691102#Comment_120691102

I'd put my house on lithium shortages once EV production really scales up past 2027/2028 and then a massive uturn on ICE ban being extended when manufacturers complain about the situation, oil and gas extraction is well scaled already, those issues were there too. EVs will get past it as well, but won't be the plain sailing Liam above sees it

Wars? Bit ignorant to think this won't happen here too, lithium isnt called "white gold" for no reason.

The world's largest lithium deposits are found in the salt lakes of Bolivia, Argentina and Chile etc, I wouldn't rule out big nations using muscles just yet

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691270#Comment_120691270

Why the sudden concern for the environmental extraction of resources but only lithium, why aren't you equally concerned about Oil.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691314#Comment_120691314

I'm not concerned, I only zoned in on Lithium because you called me anti-ev which I am not btw, you see me praising the Model 3 and now the Volvo all the time, I just don't praise overpriced ID3's etc and call them out for what they are, compliance cars

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691307#Comment_120691307

It's strange that you'd put money on their being shortages whilst industry analysts are instead investing in the opportunity to increase production. Lithium isn't a particularly rare resource. According to IEA research we need a production of between 250,000 and 450,000 tonnes by 2030. Here's a diagram that might put your outrage into perspective, the need for Lithium would fit somewhere between Magnesium and Strontium, by all means become an anti resource campaigner but maybe focus on the 3.2 billon tonnes of mining instead of worrying about 0.01% needed to reduce our dependency on oil

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691270#Comment_120691270

I have looked into Li issues for years, prior to becoming an EV owner and as part of my studies. I don't deny for a second there are issues with the extraction of Li in certain mining processes, but these are almost irrelevant compared to the issues with the extraction of crude oil...the environmental cost and the human cost. I am perplexed by your concerns of Li extraction when compared to the extraction of oil and gas. Which do you think is the resource we should focus on extracting; oil, gas, or lithium?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691307#Comment_120691307

Don't make yourself homeless just yet. We have a housing crisis.

The ICE bans aren't going to be everywhere and not all in 2030 either. I do suspect the bans will be extended, but not because of a Lithium shortage, but rather a failure of government policy. Another 5-10 years will be added depending on the country we speak about.

There's plenty of Lithium everywhere. We don't need to focus on the richest deposits just yet.

Back Home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu0H49-HVhg

Some sense on the subject

kanuseeme

3.2 billion, thats beyond comprehension, just for iron ore, how much more is mined before it concentrated into iron ore pellets, then converting that into iron, there is going to be millions and millions of tons of slag, we have to be near a tipping point, my grandkids are going to be f**ked.

Thats not even considering the energy involved.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691485#Comment_120691485

This guy is always entertaining, I don't think I would drive an EV in Australia.

However as far as I know he does...

electricus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689785#Comment_120689785

There are alternative to Lithium for batteries including Sodium. Fossil fuels are getting scarce too, and as we're discussing the environmental impact:

Refining petroleum accounts for about 4 percent of the total energy consumed in the United States and about 15 percent of all industrial consumption.

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/7261027

That would charge a lot of batteries. It is also just the energy cost of refining the stuff, not getting it out of the ground, transporting it, cleaning up pollution, etc.

jonnreeks

It's all fine pushing the motor industry with electrify vehicles, but one giant challenge looms, what will happen to all the old lithium batteries?

In 10 to 15 years when there are large numbers coming to the end of their life, it's going to be very important that we have a recycling industry.

Sabre Man

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ does recycling in the US.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708460#Comment_120708460

They'll be re-used for stationary storage use. A 60kWh LFP battery from cars this year have an expected cycle life of 4,000 cycles. If a 15 year old car does 255,000km it will have used about 700 of those cycles. The battery will still be in a good condition and likely have a usable capacity of 50kWh by the time the cars is taken off the road.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708577#Comment_120708577

The durable batteries on current generation of cars will be the reason why, I'm willing to put my money on it, leads to a greater proportion of high mileage older vehicles on the road. The cars normally die prematurely as most owners think that they are about to explode when they turn 10 and will then neglegt basic servicing like oil changes and timing belts until the inevitable happens condemning the car in the scrap heap. Or something affecting the emmissions system fails.

If you have a corrosion free 15 year old car that is good on fuel and reliable you just keep on trucking and rack up those miles. I'd say we'll see many 15+ y.o. Tesla Model Y RWDs on the road still in 2040.

Woodie40

It would be great if the ev’s didn't have to rely on fossil fuels to charge them.

wassie

That applies equally to all electricity consumption really, not just EVs.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199014#Comment_121199014

What do you mean?

Both my EVs have run 100% on electricity from my Solar panels for the last 4 months. From now on, they will run mainly on electricity from wind turbines and that's only because it makes more financial sense for me to export my solar PV to the grid, rather than charge my car with it, making the grid greener and less dependent on fossil fuels, even during the day.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199014#Comment_121199014

If you live in a country with some renewables generation then any EV charging you do will be partly powered by renewables.

So the share of renewables is almost always more than 0%, or your fossil fuel usage will be less than 100% if you prefer it that way

This is a lot better than the 100% fossil fuel usage a combustion car will always use

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199014#Comment_121199014

Many don’t. Many use solar PV.

It would be great if houses were not reliant on fossil fuels. Public transport. Etc

It’s a long way away. But we’re on the right path.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199014#Comment_121199014

We have 3 EVs. My local EV is a leaf 24 which is 100% charged on solar. The others (Ora funky cat and tesla model 3) are charged sometimes from solar and sometimes from grid. If t hey are grid charged it's overnight when the grid is cleanest.

EVs arent powered from a coal fire or a diesel genny you know

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199014#Comment_121199014

Still cleaner & more efficient than ICE though….

a typical CCGT power plant in Ireland is about 66-68% efficient, whereas a typical new ICE engine will do well to be 30% efficient….

so even if charging during the day when the grid is ‘dirtiest’, it’s still a much better prospect for the environment as more of the input is converted to usable power…

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623666#Comment_120623666

My Mustang Mach E is using a Lithium Ion Phosphate battery as I have the standard range battery although I think the extended range batteries still use cobalt.