Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343412#Comment_118343412

Its not about countering anything, and its not moving the goalposts to state that they have already missed the first target they set which doesn't inspire confidence that they will meet the longer term targets.

My point was always that we need to see institutional change in the HSE, search that word and you will a long post from me yesterday saying exactly that.

We are facing into another lockdown, less than 2 years after the first and for exactly the same reason. You might be happy to shrug your shoulders and be happy that they are doing their best, but I for one expect better than that.

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343481#Comment_118343481

Like much of Europe is? This is nothing to do with the HSE or Ireland's politicians, all of Europe is exploding with new cases now, it's the virus, not the HSE. Yes, the HSE needs reforms, I would have no arguments against that, but the need for this lockdown is not due to the HSE or any actions which were not taken by the HSE, because all of Europe is feeling this storm incoming and taking increasingly strong actions.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343322#Comment_118343322

Early Covid scholarly research and news media reports have suggested that cloth masks may not be effective for Omicron. At best, for any Covid variations, the cloth masks might somewhat limit the plume when someone coughs or sneezes. Beats coughing into your hand or elbow. But plumes still escape the cloth masks somewhat. They don't offer much, if any protection to the wearer if someone else issues a plume. Not sure how this may affect present and future indoor mask wearing mandates in California. N-95s are getting cheaper with volume manufacturing, both domestic and foreign, so maybe there will be a switch someday?

California has had fool-driven anti-masker protests. Huntington Beach had mask burning. There has also been nonsense conspiracy theories about masks, which make me laugh.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343500#Comment_118343500

Now who is moving the goalposts?

Its always hard to know when Europe is relevant or not. If they are closing down then we close down, if they are opening up then we stay closed down.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342583#Comment_118342583

What way of "Dealing with" do you seek ?

There are a multitude of things in our World which are not "Right",with Covid vaccine availability being way down any meaningful list.

I see nothing "wrong" with a 5 year old Irish child receiving a Jab whilst an African does'nt.

So keeping it as simple as you wish,it's a YES.

As for the supposed inequity in this,I would direct you to the Irish Overseas Aid Budget for 2020 (Not the best of years round these parts ) which stood at €867.5 Million spent.

https://www.irishaid.ie/what-we-do/how-our-aid-works/where-the-money-goes/

For a small,some would say,still developing country on the periphery of Europe,Ireland's Taxpayers more than accquit themselves in aiding a wide selection of African countries....

Total Official Development Assistance: €867.5 million. This included over €150m allocated to the global response to COVID-19 in 2020.

Of the total spend in 2020, 53% (€458m) was allocated to bilateral partners, with 47% (€409m) to multilateral partners.

The top ten partner countries to receive Irish Aid support in 2020 were: Ethiopia (€39.6m), Mozambique (€25.7m), Tanzania (€22.9m), Uganda (€22.7m), Malawi (€20.8), Sierra Leone (€14.6), Zimbabwe (€8.7), Palestine (€8.6), South Sudan (€8.6M).

So,to reiterate for clarity,given that EVERY Irish taxpayer already has a direct input into both targeted Covid-19 stuff,in addition to the usual long running relief programmes I see nothing wrong with Ireland then concentrating on at least those already resident on our Island before rushing to flog ourselves over a far away continent,many of whose inhabitants will have NOTHING to do with any form of 21st century medicines of even the most basic forms.

Reality may often be sad and distasteful....but,it remains Reality.

brickster69

As expected Holland go into full lockdown

completedit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343518#Comment_118343518

True. I don't like when people have too much of an Irishcentric view on things but it's true, the arguments seem to change when there's normality and the same people defending Government will defend them when they are the most conservative when it comes to unwinding restrictions.

TBH, it's our ingrained personality traits that cause us to be on one side of the fence or the other, the best thing we can do is have a reasoned debate and hope that we get as close to the truth as possible.

In this present moment, there seems to be no way that you can remain open given the uncertainty surrounding Omicron, there's just too much at stake and too short a time to mull over and dissect the morality of deciding to live truly with Covid but EVENTUALLY we will have to come to that point because no matter how improved our ICU capacity becomes or what HSE reforms are brought in to improve efficiency, we will never get out of this because we will never have enough capacity to deal with the numbers of infections That might still happen but we can't bank on it. I will be very interested to see when the west faces the full economic brunt of these continued lockdowns because you can be sure if was higher earners being affected there would be much more of a status quo pushback against restrictions. This will eventually happen; the services sector is too important both from a societal and economic standpoint. We have seen the phenomenon in China where young people decide to 'lay flat', what happens when young people decide to exit service based positions because what's the point?

SEPT 23 1989

They are going to push people way too far over the line in the next month

the ones on guaranteed wages for life think this is just a game

but the fallout will eventually arrive at their door

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343518#Comment_118343518

What in the name of christ are you talking about? I haven't moved any goalposts in the slightest, I am showing you that the HSE is not culpable for these new measures as other health systems are having to do the same thing.

Goalpost moving means that you make one point, get proven wrong, then change to a tangential point. You claimed that the HSE is at fault for us staring into another lockdown, and I used other countries in Europe being forced to take the same measures as a counter. That is not goalpost moving. I'm going to stop wasting my time with this discussion as it is going absolutely nowhere.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342541#Comment_118342541

There are far more pressing issues in many of those countries than a virus with a relatively low mortality rate that puts a lot of pressure on the health system (mostly as a fully integrated health system doesn't exist in many). There is also other medicines that they could do with (that we take for granted) that would improve mortality rates considerably, e.g. penicillin, Ivermectin for treating river blindness, malaria vaccines. There really isn't a scenario anymore where a vaccine not taken in Europe, US, China, Russia, would have gone to Africa, if people are interested that way, contribute to COVAX, or other aid systems which work on not just getting the medicine there but also administering it.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343542#Comment_118343542

Ireland will be in a full lockdown very shortly, just like a few lads in here very definitely said would not happen.

I have to say I really don't see the point of a lockdown if Omicron is as transmissible as reported. It would need to last for months otherwise every single time you reopen the cases will shoot up again within days. And it would need to be very severely enforced otherwise it will just spread anyway even with the reduced contacts. In a country that is sick of restrictions and no longer trusting the government people will flout the lockdown terms and cases will shoot up within days.

It is a fools errand if you ask me, but here we are.

ginoginelli

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343511#Comment_118343511

Yep. cloth masks, particularly the 1 ply kind that some people wear don't seem to do much. Probably better than nothing though. N95s and FFp2/3s look to offer far more protection. A recent german study showed if both an infected and non infected persons wore ffp2s indoors the chance of spread within the hour was something like 1/1000. They work.

Taiwan, Japan and korea have managed to control their pandemic far better than any other countries utilizing high quality masks as their primary weapon.

Here in ireland people just throw on any mask, and then there's the percentage of morons who cant even be bothered to put in over their nose.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343542#Comment_118343542

I naively thought that kind of stuff was all behind us. Ugh.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343577#Comment_118343577

Its at fault for us staying under restrictions the whole year though. I think restrictions now would be more tolerable if we had non restricted times this year and knew we'd have non restricted times in the future.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343268#Comment_118343268

Worse than NOTHING.

Why would the HSE's OWN report in 2009 set out clear unambiguous requirements and targets regarding Critical Care and ICU requirements for the country if,AT THAT JUNCTURE it was'nt already an urgent requirement ?

These people had 11 YEARS before Covid arrived,and in those 11 years of constantly expanding funding,they decided to do NOTHING !

Is nobody in your world now allowed to ask WHY ? or seek an explanation as to WHY action was NOT sanctioned then,and WHO took the decisions to do NOTHING back then ?

As you said,"It takes along time"....how damn "long" do you want ? 5,10,15.....ah sure why not say 1,000 years,and then sit back and watch the current HSE crew "start work" on ensuring whatever target you pick will indeed become a MULTI-MULTI-MULTI Year plan,with only those involved in the Planning Disciplines seeing any reward,as the Professional Fees & Charges,and Consultancy Work renumeration head towards the next galaxy.

To sit there in December 2021, and type that our Current Government have STARTED WORK on (yet another) multi-year plan quite simply shows a reality short-circuit of incredible proportions.

People will,eventually wake up from the current well planned and instituted Torpor,and start asking the questions which have lain unasked for nearly 20 years.

If these remain unasked & unanswered,then forget about regaining any form of normality,and we can continue as we generally prefer...as sure'n it could be worse ! 😰

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343605#Comment_118343605

Hmm, Germany and Austria have mandated ffp2 masks for ages now. Their case counts don't really say much for them working tbh.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343625#Comment_118343625

Shockingly late with the booster roll out. Ireland done great to be fair, but can you imagine some of the Eastern European countries and even worse the USA if this thing turns out bad.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343320#Comment_118343320

They already have this in place via surge capacity and private hospital capacity, those with COVID won't go untreated.

The problem is that to use that capacity (as it's an emergency system) they need to stop other health treatments, which means lockdowns and restrictions, so it's not like it comes for free.

There is also the problem of what the correct capacity is, if we were at the same capacity as, say, Germany, it would still get stretched by COVID and cause restrictions come in, unless you run all the time at +30% and pay for that, when 97 years out of a century, it goes unneeded.

The other aspect is that Ireland has done particularly well economically compared to most countries, despite restrictions, the PUP and measures cost a lot, but our high GDP growth masks it and is less proportionately than other countries (so the ECB will manage printing of money, but Ireland stays in relatively good health compared to others who've had to spend comparatively more during the pandemic), while we give out, rightly, about restrictions, we're also best placed to take advantage post pandemic, so why would politicians put that at risk (assuming things are back to normality by next election, which isn't a given). The macro view of everything is quite interesting.

MilkyToast

Fair points. I think Omicron all but guarantees that things will be back to normal by the next election. It's so ultra-contagious that, whether it's as severe as Delta or not, it will have swept the country in short order. So we will either have endemic Covid with lots of additional deaths or endemic covid with few additional deaths.

I think (sincerely - I'm not being glib) that a lot of people are going to need some support to move from pandemic covid to endemic covid, because the immense propaganda over the last two years has created a "stop all deaths from covid in particular at ANY cost" outlook in some people, as well as the pernicious idea that it is right to attribute "fault" in the passing of communicable disease. Which is not their fault, but people are always going to be dying of covid (even if Omicron is a "common cold" as the most optimistic assessments seem to suggest - plenty of people die from pneumonia after a common cold every year).

Itssoeasy

There are many many things the health experts would probably do differently or phrase things better with the benefit of hindsight, but the one thing I think could have helped ward off the current and justified anger many are feeling is if they hadn’t made the vaccine(not including the booster) as the silver bullet and made it sound like once the vaccine was rolled out, we’d get back to normal. The fact there’s now boosters needed(boosters aren’t unique to covid vaccines) and people aren’t seeing the return to normal, they are questioning of the whole vaccine strategy which will hurt our way out of this, because people will ask why should they bother.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343787#Comment_118343787

You’re so cool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343717#Comment_118343717

But MilkyToast, they (nphet) don't want any covid deaths. So even when it's endemic they'll still be hugely concerned. They were hugelt concerned last summer when practically no one as dying of a covid-related death.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343667#Comment_118343667

Yes, exactly. Never ever addressed by those who swear by the things.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343803#Comment_118343803

I know, thank you 😊

Captain Barnacles

Cases going down in Holland for awhile now and yet they still add the lockdown ... crazy

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343718#Comment_118343718

I don’t know anyone who’s angry or questioning anything.

I find it’s the more educated Irish Times fair trade woke types who are particularly nasty and obnoxious.

Itssoeasy

So Holland will go into lockdown from Sunday until January 14th and Paris is cancelling its New Year’s Eve fireworks display presumably to stop people from gathering in large crowds in that city. It’s a shame that things seem to be sliding backwards but it’s not a total shock either.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343939#Comment_118343939

Well frustration then if that’s more an appropriate word. You can’t deny people are frustrated and fed up over this whole thing.

PsychoPete

I passed the local pub at 5 this evening and the place was hopping, it was absolutely infuriating to not be there with them

Mr. Karate

Apparently Pfizer are saying this can last until 2024.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/12/go-pfizer-says-covid-pandemic-extend-2024/

Two more years to flatten the curve. #HoldTheLine., #We'reAllInThisTogether

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344022#Comment_118344022

Any better source for that?

Mr. Karate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344037#Comment_118344037

You have a better source than that? Wikipedia anybody can log in and write anything.

Mr. Karate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343942#Comment_118343942

You'd think Macron would be treading lightly with this nonsense since he's up for re-election next year and Le Pen is on his heels. Plus he had two near escapes from the Yellow Vesters getting their hands on him previously.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344048#Comment_118344048

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-gateway-pundit/

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/gateway-pundit/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2021/07/29/gateway-pundit-election-vaccine-covid-misinformation-google/

MarkHenderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343166#Comment_118343166

To protect you from getting seriously ill.

brickster69

A very interesting debate between the editor of the Spectator and a SAGE model guy. **** me !

https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1472226949389037573

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344037#Comment_118344037

We're all very impressed with you.

The link to the Reuters article is the fourth line in the GP article.

Mr. Karate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344067#Comment_118344067

Oh No. I might get a cold. Whatever will I do?

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344087#Comment_118344087

Sorry for bursting your bubble that you and the OP dumping that crap here lap up anything without any critical thinking.

Think it's important other users reading these posts understand where this stuff comes from.

acequion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343074#Comment_118343074

You are completely deluding yourself if you think that Tony Holohan doesn't have a lot of power. Or is your interpretation of power a narrow one related only to the power bestowed by elections? There are many sources of power, the media and social media being one of the most potent. Look at how he uses Twitter, how he guest appears wherever possible, how he has God like status in many Irish homes in spite of or perhaps because he is outside Government. And as CMO he is an authority figure and there is still an enormous degree of subservience to authority in this country. That old sense of the boss knows best and don't dare question.

And yes you're right that the chief goal of politicians is to get re elected. In order to continue their cushy lifestyle. Therefore many will be in a bind over how to play this. Many, deep down, resent the power [a massive psychological power] that TH has over the Government and many, deep down, don't agree with this constant abundance of caution. But they'll play safe, they won't defy their party whip and let's not forget that a great many people support these restrictions, though less and less as time goes on.And unfortunately there are those who benefit from the restrictions and they're all voters too.And finally, let's not forget the power of group think and how politicians operate in their own little bubble where conformity rules the day, especially nowadays. So when he weighs it all up Johnny politician reckons he's far better off toeing the line and back slapping the friends in high places.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344110#Comment_118344110

Well it is literally from Reuters, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

You don't like Gateway Pundit? Fair enough. It has a pretty extreme bias.

But you're so utterly disabled by your aversion that you have to retire to the fainting couch before you get four lines in and find the link to the source?

Spare me.

MarkHenderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344108#Comment_118344108

Covid is not a cold but you already know that. 6 million plus dead worldwide thus far would confirm that.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344061#Comment_118344061

I get the impression macron doesn’t care how he’s perceived and will do what he thinks is the right thing to protect France and yes that may not be helpful next year but as I said I don’t think he cares about optics even though you’d think he would care. I could be wrong but that’s the impression I get.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344141#Comment_118344141

Well why not use the original source instead of some far right grifter fake news site who has chosen to spin the word "could" into a clickbait article?

It shows where posters are getting their information from and don't see why it needs to be dumped here.

Sorry for upsetting you. I have a feeling if someone posted a link to RTE etc. you would be the first moaning about MSM.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344181#Comment_118344181

Yes, I'm sure I look like the upset one in this exchange.

Just go to the source. And chill the **** out, dude. You'll give yourself palpitations.

cannonballTaffyOjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343605#Comment_118343605

Are you one of these people that would mask babies ?

Masks are pointless unless you are ill ...

If one is breathing normally masks are useless

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344071#Comment_118344071

So from that thread it looks like modellers are being asked to model only the scenarios that would require action while leaving out scenarios that wouldn't, and then politicians are pointing at these worst-worst-case models and saying "Look! We need to take action! The modellers said!"

Scummy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344022#Comment_118344022

The World Bank's Covid Project ends in March 2025.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344213#Comment_118344213

Yep, sounds familiar eh ?

Mr. Karate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344141#Comment_118344141

Pfizer is making Billions off of this. Is it really that shocking that they would want it to last for as long as possible?