Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345407#Comment_118345407

People's livelihoods at this stage are more important than kids in primary or secondary missing a couple of weeks of school.

ddarcy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344968#Comment_118344968

ill play your game the same way:

S&P 500 index

march 2020=2305

December 2021=4620

% Gain 100%

% gain Pfizer 116%

also remember statistics and number theory so it’s harder to double a larger number. Essentially Pfizer has risen in line with the S&P excluding the fact they introduced an new treatment (not vaccine) for Covid as well (which accounts for the current run up).

so your point is bullshít, but to the dimwit feeble minded it will be like the cure to cancer

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345421#Comment_118345421

So people livelihoods for a few weeks is more important than kids education for a few weeks. (I know most people see the closing time for pubs and think it only effects drinkers, never thinking about the employee's)

But if you decide to close schools, so people can go drinking, what message does that send? Also, those kids parents need to be taking time off work to mind them. Not everyone can't work from home and even those that could, can't work while trying to educate and look after their kids.

Ten of Swords

Mod - once again thread has gone wildly off topic and posts that belong in the CT forum are here, all over this thread and others.

Posters pushing blatant conspiracy nonsense are already being banned from this forum and will continue to be. There's been tons of mod warnings, all ignored.

Great reset, vaccine conspiracy, follow the money etc all belong in the CT forum

https://www.boards.ie/categories/conspiracy-theories

M_Murphy57

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344993#Comment_118344993

We weren't allowed travel by plane until July 19th or eat indoors until August. Festivals were never allowed despite the young being vaccinated *and* not being at risk.

We got vaccinated and now boosted and we're locked down both summer and winter here.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345202#Comment_118345202

The fact we are not told this, undermines pretty much every other statistic for me. Its basic and not a big number.

SafeSurfer

Will there be a level 5 lockdown post Christmas?

Also I am hesitant about getting the booster jab if another vaccine specifically tweaked to protect against Omicron is already being developed and is likely to be deployed within months.

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345446#Comment_118345446

Is the new virus extremely dangerous?

the government and many people like yourself say yes, well then every day we wait to shut schools and all other truly non essential business then we are killing people for no other reason but selfishness.

we are all in this together, we need a complete lockdown for at least 3 months with the suspension of all wages and household expenses, all households to receive 250 per household member weekly from government to feed themselves

we can do this, we can stop the virus but we must be truly in this together, no more discrimination between the powerful and the weak , between the public and private sector

also we need to start a conversation about real inequality, we have to increase all taxes to make sure we Can end inequality, higher levels of taxes on income and gains and inheritance must be hitting 75% plus , we are all in this together

come on Ireland

gmisk

Those restrictions in the Netherlands are pretty tough...I could imagine the reaction here if they shut down non essential retail in the run up to Christmas!

Dempo1

This is getting alarming whatever side of the argument people are on. I'm sensing the 8pm closing is going to be just the start. Countries with far more efficient health service systems taking drastic action.

I'm beginning to think once Christmas week over we're heading for the dreaded level 5, hope I'm wrong.

Hard to believe its only 3 weeks since we even heard of Omicron.

_Kaiser_

I see Nolan and Colm Henry are quoted in the Independent this morning making more "scary" predictions of the hospitals potentially being overwhelmed in weeks and a "senior government source" saying that more that more restrictions may need to be agreed before the end of the year.

Few things here..

- Congrats to everyone who predicted this weeks and months ago, not that it was much of a stretch. It's December 2020 all over again. The latest (ridiculous) restrictions haven't even kicked in yet, and the media are already preparing the country for the next phase : the full return of lockdowns in January.

- Why is Nolan making "dire" predictions again anyway in the press? Weren't his band of fortune tellers (with the associated accuracy and reliability that comes with that sort) supposed to be staying out of the media?

- Why is whatever regulator not getting involved here in what is blatant scaremongering and rampant speculation in a top headline pushed out to people (if you have notifications on) at 7am on a Sunday morning? There's no problem decrying "fake news" when the speculation is in a media outlet they don't like, but if it's in the Independent or Irish Times it's grand eh?

So what have we learned?

- Vaccines and boosters are apparently pointless. They make no difference to the national "strategy" (and I use that term loosely) for dealing with Covid nor how those who've gotten them can live their lives vs anyone who hasn't.

- Despite supposed annoyance in Government over NPHET's grandstanding in the media and trying to force the Cabinet's hand in advance of decisions, nothing has changed - which also lends credence to the suggestions here that it's all just a carefully choreographed PR game by both to manipulate the population and absolve both sides of responsibility.

- The "emergency" powers that were yet again rubber stamped for extension until April will be fully utilised when Micheal appears before New Year's eve to bounce the country into full restrictions/lockdown - again!

- None of this is a surprise of course. Anyone who has been following this for the last 18 months without the hysteria and some knowledge of the personalities involved will have seen this coming as I said earlier. The next phase of course will be the fearful/compliant taking to social media to defend the decision because "de variant" and attacking anyone with a hint of objectivity on the subject. It's so predictable - or if you prefer a Battlestar Galactica quote : "all of this has happened before, and it will happen again!"

Personally, my only question to the audience is this...

At what point will we say enough is enough and demand our country and more importantly our lives and freedoms back? Will we have to wait until everyone loses their jobs or has a breakdown (not an exaggeration - the mental health effects of all this are huge) or has a close family member that has suffered these things before they start asking questions?

Covid simply is not the deadly rampant killer it was (reasonably at the time) feared to be in March 2020. It's potentially dangerous to the elderly, the infirm, and the immunocompromised (but even then it's far from a certain death sentence), but the overwhelming majority of people in this country are at little to no risk from it as has been evidenced by the numbers - and that's before the effects of the vaccinations are included!

How long are we going to allow the failings of the HSE and those running it to be used to dictate and restrict social behaviour in this country - because that's what is happening here. The hospitals are ALWAYS "on the verge of collapse" at this time of year, and no amount of money seems able to fix that (because this is Ireland - institutionally inept, wasteful and unaccountable to the public).

Basically folks.. How much is enough? How much longer are you prepared to live like this? Years? Decades? Because that's the road we're sleepwalking ourselves down, where any minor illness or "threat" can be used to strip freedoms and public discourse overnight.

30/40 years ago we would have smugly attacked regimes in the East for this stuff. Now we're not just embracing it ourselves, we're cheering it on!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

All good observations but the Gagging order didn't last too long when MM and Leo needed cover, the spectle of the CMO in attendance at Fridays news conference proved that, the sudden love fest between Tony & Leo was vomit enducing.

I said it before, there was a coordinated approach to this, beggers belief these restrictions were not discussed last Tuesday, all they had to do was iron out was how to make each look good, 5pm or 8pm. CMO has never attended these after restrictions announcement press conferences.

Phase two has commenced, NPHET members out doing interviews over the weekend.

Personally I predicted 2022 as the year to return to normal, perhaps even that was ambitious.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

Nolan’s appearance in the media is in defence of the models, which, surprise surprise, are not getting the acclaim he feels they deserve. What has become apparent in the face of Omicron is that the tools cupboard is absolutely threadbare. Once it was vaccines that were going to solve the problem, now it looks like there is absolutely nothing apart from just boosting until pharma makes better vaccines.  I wouldn't pay too much heed to Henry and the CMO, we have got to the point where we no longer listen to any of them.  I don't think there is the same fear of COVID as there has been even if this continued gloom has affected some people very badly.

Ultimately, it's the lack of a way out that really frustrates people. They can cheerfully predict things that can't be ruled out but there is no sense that they have any other ideas. My own idea, with the season that's in it and the New Year coming, is to vax the world ASAP.   I'd also like to see the same kind of money thrown at research into the virus as Project Warp Speed managed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

Excellent summary

tomgrange1978

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/never-forget-always-remember-micheal-martin-opens-up-on-how-loss-of-his-two-children-changed-him-41162861.html

is nothing scared

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345690#Comment_118345690

Is there an actual point to you sharing this? People who lose children never forget them and are inclined to talk about it. It's part of the lifelong healing. It is often said to be the worst thing that can happen in your life to bury a child.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345695#Comment_118345695

I agree

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345695#Comment_118345695

Why is using his own very personal loss in the same interview where he discusses covid restrictions

if you feel upset at anyone it should be at Martin

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345703#Comment_118345703

It strikes me this is more about your own grievances with him TBH. It has influenced who he is although being a worrywart and incapable of being anyway decisive is more to the fore here.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345703#Comment_118345703

To be fair it was a wide ranging interview with a personal element. I'm certainly not a defender of MM or this appalling government but honestly, bringing personal tradegy into this discussion is not appropriate. I truely understand people's frustrations but just feel this should be left out of the discussion.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345695#Comment_118345695

Agreed, but I think the point may be that Martin's personal loss may be affecting his decision making at policy levels.

A bit like how Holohan's similar tragic loss last year likely affected him/his.

As sad as these events are though, if they are impacting on decisions affecting the entire country then the individuals involved should step aside really.

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345713#Comment_118345713

You write - Bringing personal tragedy into this discussion is not appropriate

and you are correct Martin should not doing an interview like this. He will regret this in time to come

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

People are too busy sharing footage of some unwell lad on a Ryanair flight for the purposes of sneering to take their time to read and disseminate that

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345712#Comment_118345712

That’s not true

if he wants to do an interview about his own personal losses I have no problem, but to link that discussion to how he is performing in his role is sad

TefalBrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345622#Comment_118345622

There would be no reaction here besides the usual whingers ringing Joe Duffy or the usual internet warrior reactions. Irish people are very happy following restrictions thankfully.

nullzero

The reality here is that the restrictions being reintroduced aren't a reaction to the danger posed by the virus itself but rather the health service's ability to deal with the extra numbers that will need to be dealt with.

This is not a virus of the unvaccinated as the government and media have been at pains to describe it. It is much more simple than that, what we're seeing is an attempt by government to dress up the failings of our health service as the failings of the people when in reality those failings have only one owner, the government (and successive previous governments).

Our rate of vaccination is the envy of most countries and yet here we are, struggling to deal with the situation as it exists. The world and his wife knew winter in Ireland is an ideal breeding ground for and respiratory tract infection and yet no action was taken to mitigate against the inevitable rise in cases beyond attempting to vaccinate our way out of the situation.

We're learning now that the vaccines have a limited window of protection, the vaccines were only brought to market this year and had many unknowns attached to them in yet our elected officials and their pals in NEPHT bet the farm on vaccines being the only show in town. Now that everything has gone to hell its the fault of the few people who haven't been vaccinated, to be fair they got invested in that narrative early doors, just to be safe.

If we do go into lockdown in January again, the next phase will be to double down on persisting with the unsuccessful vaccination program. Schools closing will result in children only being allowed to return with a Covid vaccination cert, many see that as far fetched but the rhetoric is changing and the attitude towards the unvaccinated is becoming more and more punitive.

2022 will not see restrictions relaxed without vaccination. In the same way that the small number of unvaccinated people are being blamed for this current crisis, the inevitable decline in numbers that comes with the passing of winter will be attributed to those who are vaccinated. Neither narrative is true, both are lies but they're spun just enough to fool the average eejit in the street and that's all that matters because as long as the blame stays away from our politicians, that's all that matters.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345726#Comment_118345726

OK fair enough but this end of year interview happens all of the time with serving Taoiseach a wide range of topics discussed including those of a personal nature. It's not the first time he's discussed this personal Tradegy, it has no bearing on his more recent decisions, which I'm not defending, just unfortunate this particular subject has to be thrown into a Boards discussion particularly with a few days to Christmas.

I'm especially thinking of those on here who may have had a similar tradegy.

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345748#Comment_118345748

Why are you linking my posts to some kind of attack on people who have had similar losses

are you a monster ?

corcaigh07

Very interesting that that interview comes out the very next day after a controversial decision/speech. An attempt to soften his image?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345773#Comment_118345773

I'm not linking your posts to anything actually, your clearly agitated by MM and seem to think highlighting one aspect of a wide ranging interview involving personal tragedy is appropriate, I don't and if that makes me seem like an insensitive monster so be it.

I've absolutely not defended MM generally and will continue to be critical of government policy but have not felt the need to search the gutter to do so.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345782#Comment_118345782

It's not interesting, it's an annual interview done by serving Taoiseach.

Captain Barnacles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

Well said!

Fantastic post, I am personally amazed that even with 94% of adults vaccinated we are going into a worse situation than we were in a year ago.

Captain Barnacles

Also saw this over on /r/LockdownSkepticism

Excellent post :

I'm new here and I came to find some sanity in this world. Some of you have seen me around, and I'm not exactly one of you. I wore N95 masks last year, along with face shields during the peak last fall. For a few months I lived with a dieing loved one (not COVID) and I wanted to protect the other elderly family members I was in regular contact with. I followed all the rules. When the vaccine was available to me, I got my shots and felt a sense of relief and joyful freedom for the first time in a while. I'm not going back; life has to be worth living.

And here's a hot take: all of that was my choice. It doesn't have to be yours. And we can't live in fear forever and this isn't worth losing friends and family over.

Most of all, I can't abide the ugliness that has come out of this. In one breath, people I know will be freaking out about every casualty, and in the next, they'll actively celebrate anyone who didn't join their tribe suffering. Orphans are hilarious if their parents were unvaccinated. People are calling for abandoning all medical ethics and saying we should deny all medical care to anyone who isn't vaccinated, as if people who make different decisions are irredeemably evil and should be denied medical care we'd even give to murderers in prison. They say the line between good and evil cuts through the heart of everyone and to me, that's getting real. The scapegoating is terrifying.

People hiding in their homes, directing nonstop hate to their friends, family, neighbors, coworkers, and countrymen? That's humanity at its worst. We can do better than that. Enough is enough!

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345797#Comment_118345797

Yet again you are seeing things that are not there

you are clearly agitated by me and seem to think linking my posts to some type of attack on people who have suffered the death of a child

you are defending Martin and you are also defending the right of a public figure to use a death of a child to defend their actions regards Covid, something he has done as he knows it won’t be long until there are suicides because of this latest lockdown and he wants to get his defence in first

you might defend and even encourage that type of thing,I don’t

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345773#Comment_118345773

I must say I also found your post a tad insensitive.

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345842#Comment_118345842

I must say I found martins interview a little more than a tad insensitive

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345839#Comment_118345839

If you took so time to look back on my observations on what's being going on you might realise your argument is nonsense. Perhaps your somewhat flummoxed your reacting to someone who's actually been very critical of MM and not a conspiracy theorist. You plucked one aspect of a generally benign interview to personally attack an individual, deliberately focusing on a personal Tradegy, that in my book is offensive, insensitive, un called for but also completely off Topic.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'll leave it at that, move on so to speak

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345634#Comment_118345634

As long as people keep voluntarily queueing for a vaccine that doesn't work, we're sunk....

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/1219/1267598-coronavirus-ireland/

There's no point in publicly protesting here in Ireland if you become the nail that sticks out and get hammered down (to borrow a Japanese phrase).

Some of us have very limited direct contact with real humans due to working from home, social distancing, friends & family being afraid of their own shadows, etc, etc, and as you rightly said, mental health is an issue here.

Why risk being shunned by the few people left for you to interact with if you march on the Dail, especially if the narrative reported by the government media portrays you as a granny killer or crazy person.

I will complain to anyone who will listen, I will try to highlight what is wrong with the system, tell them that they'll not comply their way out of restrictions, and while they'll all nod in agreement and say that I've got a good point, what happens.... They turn around and get the booster, because that's what Tony said to do.

We are literally pissing against the wind with things as they stand, the money tree needs to be burned down and the gravy train needs to be derailed before the Irish will protest.

Maybe things will change if we still have restrictions after the 4th booster? Who knows. 2022 is going to be another write off in my opinion.

revelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345902#Comment_118345902

Lab studies are showing that the booster is 75%-80% effective against Omicron. For those who still get symptoms, all the indications are that the vaccines will still protect against severe disease.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345909#Comment_118345909

Why the need for restrictions on vaccinated people then?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345914#Comment_118345914

Questioning vaccinations or lockdowns is wrong think and anyone engaged in either should be shunned by society.

revelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345914#Comment_118345914

Because this virus is so transmissible, the majority of people in the country might be exposed to it over a relatively short period of time. When you have hundreds of thousands or millions of people, if even a tiny percentage of them get sick, then the hospitals will end up in dire straits. A tiny percentage of a large number is still significant.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345925#Comment_118345925

Would you agree that the real issue here is the state of the health system rather than Omicron being a potentially lethal strain of Covid to the average person?

francogarbanzo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345925#Comment_118345925

Until when?

revelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345932#Comment_118345932

I think we have a really problematic healthcare system that needs huge investment. At the same time, no matter what the country, if a tiny percentage of millions of people get sick, this will result in hospitals being overwhelmed. This is why the Netherlands has basically gone into a full lockdown. My own guess is that Omicron will peak in Ireland sooner rather than later and things might not be serious as is being predicted, given how much vaccine coverage we have had,

revelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345941#Comment_118345941

Looking at what has happened in South Africa and currently in the U.K., I’d say it is highly likely that Omicron will peak in Ireland in early January. This wave will be over much quicker than previous waves,

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345947#Comment_118345947

Were we to go into lockdown for three months in the new year, do you believe that the inevitable decrease in cases that comes with the end of the winter season should be attributed to the lockdown or simply seen as the pattern the virus follows each winter?

tomgrange1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345947#Comment_118345947

all that matter is ICU numbers and if Ireland cannot handle 2000 people in icu then we really have to question

• where does the 20 billion spent per annum on The health system goes, is it being wasted or stolen or a mixture of both
• also what have the government and the hse and out cmo being doing for the last 2 years that we are not ready for this new variant

revelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345955#Comment_118345955

Why would we need to go into lockdown for 3 months if Omicron looks like it will peak in early January?

Captain Barnacles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345844#Comment_118345844

Agreed, its emotional manipulation, and in that article he was linking it to accepting zero deaths from covid - this is the whole "If lockdown saves one life it will all be worth it" bollox - the zero covid fantasy that even Au/NZ are slowly accepting is impossible.

So by linking that to his own tragedy people can't criticize it then - clever .