So UFOs aren't a theory anymore - but we still don't know what they are

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900479#Comment_120900479

Again this being the ex-nazi you believe was involved in a global conspiracy to fake all space flight.

And it's someone making unverifiable claims about someone else making unverifiable claims about deathbed confessions.

And all about a subject that you believe is a hoax.

Interesting indeed.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901637#Comment_120901637

According to him there's bodies, alien craft, alien pilots, the whole lot.

Amazing, exciting, fantastic, earth-shattering.. is he going to show evidence for it? Of course not. Are we going to get anything out of this? Nothing.

He'll pull all the same shenanigans as all the others, claim he can't release the info, claim his life is under threat, claim he was told by someone who was told by someone. The same tired alien-innuendo roadshow that has been playing for decades.

BorneTobyWilde

Those keeping it secret must be above the President, as if they weren't Trump would have spilled the beans by now

Hamsterchops

As per the title of this thread

"So UFOs aren't a theory anymore - but we still don't know what they are"

Thing is, this mystery has now gained enough critical mass to become a mainstream issue, no longer a fringe game for assorted "loons & believers" this topic has now been legitimised in Congress as an important issue of scientific study and investigation.

Something unknown is happening in our skies, something tangible & non human in origin, some kind of elusive Phenomenon as yet undefined & unidentified - this is what's happening in plain sight.

No longer a stigma (in theory), pilots in particular should report these sightings without fear of ridicule, so we now wait for feedback from those members of Congress who will have meetings with Dave Grouch and those he will disclose behind closed doors in private session.

"Missing" photos and mislaid radar and sensor data all need to be tracked down and presented to the next hearing, by which time it will be a given that we have a real mystery that needs an answer.

There is an investigation to be had for sure, far too many sightings by pilots, far too many reports over the decades for there to be nothing but a balloon 🎈

President Obama eluded to the fact that there are some things in our skies still unidentified, like we don't know what they are!

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901921#Comment_120901921

Your post makes a couple of reductive arguments.

First, you claim that it's not an issue for "loons & believers", yet many people in the issue are proporting beliefs far beyond just the notion that "something is going on". For example, the fellow in congress is claiming that it is aliens, that the US government knows it's aliens and they have their technology. For another example other people on this thread like Cheerful and Markus have very extreme beliefs about what going on and other conspiracy theories.

By pretending that these claims are somehow vindicated or legitimised, or to pretend they don't exist, you are being reductive.

You are also being reductive by portraying any attempts to argue the "evidence" presented aren't alien or are explainable as arguing that they are "nothing but a balloon". This dismisses the serious discussion of this evidence simply because those arguments don't result in the conclusion you prefer.

Also, it needs to be pointed out that non human does not immediately equate to aliens or anything extraordinary.

These are the kinda arguments UFO grifters are hoping for so that they can milk the legitimacy these hearings offer them.

Giblet

Made without, dismissed without etc etc

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901921#Comment_120901921

That's the thing, there is never proper evidence.

Millions of people, including professionals, pilots, experts, military, have claimed to have seen ghosts. We have many reports of encounters, we have documentaries about it, TV shows, ghost hunters.

It's all BS. Blurry images, vague evidence, hearsay. The human mind creates it all.

As much as I'd love to be wrong, this Grusch guy will turn out to be just another nut, he won't have any evidence, everything will be vague hearsay. All conveniently hidden.

After decades of being a space enthusiast and following this kind of stuff, it always turns out the same.

Dohnjoe

Almost as if there's a correlation..

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1684266210211266573/photo/1

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901921#Comment_120901921

"Something non-human in origin"- no, we can't say that at this point.

mazdamiatamx5

There is, quite possibly, a conspiracy going on. But if there is it's much more likely one involving a 'cabal' of believers who hope to lobby the government and politicians to give NASA more funds.

Shank Williams

Lame enough stuff yesterday- and I so want to believe

extraordinary claims without the extraordinary(or even ordinary )evidence required to back it up.

the pilots seem the most credible but who knows what is happening there.

something off about the whole thing, seems like a distraction or some kind of limited hangout.

im less interested overall after yesterday. Some amount of dopes online who think just because this stuff was said under oath that it must be true.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902788#Comment_120902788

Doesn't really say much.

These are reported sightings on record and it isn't surprising that reporting mechanisms for unknown aerial objects are strongest in the US, UK etc. where a reporting system would have been in place, especially during the cold war. Russia for example is dark because of the lack of transparency - the ERSI built this heat map using the data available but I can't imagine there being quality data coming from sub-saharan Africa in the mid-twentieth century, same for most of the world then and now.

It is safe to say that most of these sightings are bollocks though but the map doesn't prove or disprove anything, just another social media heat map.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904888#Comment_120904888

Was the rest of Europe not involved in the Cold War as well? Why is it only the Netherlands and east coast of Ireland which have any other noticeable number of reports?

There isn't even a noticeable split down the middle of Germany to support your Cold War theory.

Cheerful S

 In his role as a Pentagon UAP investigator, Grusch had access to classified information and resources that allowed him to uncover the existence of a series of classified UFO programs across multiple government agencies. It's evidently stupid of debunkers not to know Grusch's actual job was to identify all these UFO secret groups.

In his investigations for the Department of Defense, he discovered that one of the UFO programs was hidden from the public and Congress, but directed through a highly classified compartment called IRAD inside the Department of Defence.

According to Grusch, this UFO program was operated by private companies that were given off-the-books money by the DOD in order to try reverse engineer UFO technology and avoid divulging it to the public or Congress.

He tried to use his authority from the Department of Defence to gain access to the program, but the cabal in charge refused to grant him access and allow him to do his job. Because of this, he became a whistleblower, and some within the Department of Defense began to put tough pressure on him to keep quiet about this program.

The hearing yesterday was not for you and me, but for Congress to uncover all this through an investigation.

Congress has the power to subpoena witnesses and compel them to testify under oath, which is the only way to get to the truth. They can also compel the production of documents, which is a key part of any investigation.

The Congress will need new investigatory powers and mandates to summon the new witnesses Grusch discussed yesterday. Those 40 people Grusch talked about yesterday need protection.. In order to uncover the truth and hold those responsible for wrongdoings accountable, this is a necessary step to get to the bottom of the issue. Congress will not be able to find out the truth without access to this power first.

Grusch is legally bound by a non-disclosure agreement that he signed when he began working for the Department of Defense. This agreement restricts him from disclosing any confidential information he may have learned while working for the DOD. Additionally, the DOD has made it clear that any breach of this agreement could result in serious legal and financial repercussions for Grusch and the other whistleblowers involved. It is imperative that Congress passes new laws now to enable these people to give the public the truth.

It's obvious you don't understand Grusch isn't lying, he's just sticking to the NDA he signed. He never refused to share specifics, just said he gave them in classified settings. Our next step is for Congress to work for the American public and take action against the shadow government that hides this program from the world.  

Hamsterchops

https://youtu.be/ygB4EZ7ggig

For me personally this is the most compelling UFO evidence of all time, two professional pilots backed up by another two pilots, backed up by radar, and backed up by the now famous FLIR TicTac footage, taken by yet another pilot who was sent up after Deitrich & Fravor returned to the Nimitz carrier in 2004.

Whatever they saw had no wings and no obvious propulsion, it could drop to sea level from 80k feet altitude (space), then take off at Mach 10 or whatever it takes to disappear into the distance in the blink of an eye.

Great interview 👍🏻

Dohnjoe

Article highlighting how these things are often an extraordinary mystery right up until the moment they are ordinarily explained.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/11/i-study-ufos-and-i-dont-believe-the-alien-hype-heres-why

In 2017 I helped solve a UFO case. Using a hi-tech infrared camera, the Chilean navy had recorded video of a mysterious object in the distance. The black-and-white footage showed a bizarre black shape flying across the sky, and at one point it seemed to emit plumes of hot gases. A special group was formed of military personnel, scientists and other experts. Over two years they carefully studied the case, eliminated all mundane possibilities, and finally concluded that this object was a “genuine unknown”. A real UFO, certified by a national military.

The research group released their conclusions and published the enigmatic video. The writer Leslie Kean wrote an effusive article in the Huffington Post lauding the development as a “groundbreaking” and “exceptional” discovery based on video and accounts from, her Chilean government sources said, “highly trained professionals with many years experience” and the “full participation” of academia and the armed forces. The UFO community rejoiced.

Three days later I, and others, identified the plane as Iberia flight 6830, departing Santiago airport. The “hot gases” were just contrails, and the odd movement was the result of a low viewing angle and a powerful zoom factor on the infrared camera. The glare from the engines obscured the plane and created the unusual shape. Radar data confirmed that the exact location of the plane matched the UFO. Case closed.

As for the "Tictac" and others, appears to be more of the same

Other, less impressive videos (which UFO buffs also describe as being remarkable) have quickly succumbed to analysis. “Go Fast” was not actually going fast, and was consistent with a balloon drifting in the wind. “Tic Tac” did not show a craft moving like a ping-pong ball, but instead looked more like a distant plane with the apparent movement caused by the camera switching modes and performing gimbal rolls. “Green Pyramid” looked like “the best UFO footage of all time” for two days, then I pointed out it looked exactly like an out-of-focus airliner shot in night vision with a triangular aperture.

Hamsterchops

My point about TicTac is that there were four pilots right there, right then, four sets of eyeballs watching this thing, trained pilots with Commander Fravor in charge, Deitrich in his back seat, the other plane staying aloft as Fravor spiralled downwards to have a look, then it spiralled up ro meet him, and then shot off @Mach .....

They saw something inexplicable to their professional eyes, a craft without wings 40ft long, cylindrical. Click, very fast, gone . . .

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902484#Comment_120902484

OMG this bullshit again. Everyone knows the pictures/videos/witness testimony available to the public are not conclusive. Though the weight of testimony is compelling (hours of video here).

THIS is the conspiracy theory : There IS better evidence, it is being concealed.

It has gone from a whisper by unknowns to sworn testimony by unassailable military members in congress.

The progress lately is amazing and will take years for it all to be revealed properly I'd imagine.

This throwing the dummy out with "the photos are grainy" is just laughable.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906485#Comment_120906485

The better evidence: "Someone told me that the US has a spacecraft the size of a football field"

That's not evidence, it's hearsay.

Someone providing sworn testimony that someone told them that the US has a spacecraft the size of a football field.

Is again, not direct evidence. It's just someone who believes what someone else told them.

Someone providing sworn testimony that they can't identify something they saw on a screen.

Likewise.

We've been hearing this same thing repeatedly for over 50 years. We've been receiving grainy footage and blurry photos for over 50 years (the majority of which gets explained)

Like "ghost sightings", close UFO encounters have almost completely stopped since we all started having a smartphone. That's not a coincidence.

As a space enthusiast for most of my life, I'd love more than anything if some sort of intelligent life were visiting us. Sadly there is zero direct evidence of that. Only evidence of us not being able to identify some of the millions of things shots with millions of cameras. And only evidence of wishful thinking by certain individuals.

Dohnjoe

Calling it now, this man will turn out to have no credible evidence of his claims in the closed sessions.

https://thehill.com/homenews/space/4121446-ufo-whistleblower-makes-explosive-claims-but-wary-of-divulging-details/

Dohnjoe

From an interview with Sean Kirkpatrick (Pentagon UFO investigator) last week

Transcript from interview:

Devin Dwyer (DD): So that 2-5% which are anomalous incidents which you are still looking into, could potentially be extraterrestrial activity?

Sean Kirkpatrick (SK): So we are going to follow our data and our investigations wherever it goes. I have a full range of hypotheses. {On one end of the spectrum, it's advanced technology that's coming from an adversary. Right in the middle, I have all my known objects -- balloons and drones and birds and whatnot. And then on the far end of the spectrum, we have extraterrestrials.}

DD: So you can't rule it out?

SK: I can't rule it out, but I don't have any evidence that says that yet.

DD: You can say categorically you've seen no convincing, confirmable evidence of intact spacecraft kept by the US government?

SK: I have seen no convincing...no. I have seen nothing that leads me to that conclusion.

DD: Is it possible there is some secret program you are just not aware of?

SK: I don't think so. I have access to anything and everything I need.

DD: Why do you think these whistleblowers are coming forward?

SK: Well one, I think the recent law which extended whistleblower protections to them, and named AARO as the authorized disclosure authority, opens the door for them to come and tell us exactly what they think they saw or know about.

DD: You believe them?

SK: I believe that they believe what they are telling me. And I, my job, is not to-- it's not a question of belief. It's a question of what can I go research.

SK: {We've interviewed almost 30 individuals who have come in to provide their testimony. And out of all of those, none of it has yet led to any verifiable information that substantiates the claim that the U.S. government has those ships or has a reverse-engineering program either in the past or currently.}

SK: A lot of these allegations crop up again and again over history. {I'm not going to jump ahead to conclusions until we have more data.}

DD: Do you think extraterrestrial life is out there?

SK: I think it's statistically unrealistic to think it isn't, given the vastness of the universe.

DD: You going to find it on your watch?

SK: Wouldn't that be fun. That would be probably the best outcome of this job.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/extraterrestrial-technical-supremacy-top-concern-pentagon-ufo-investigator/story?id=101218299

Giblet

Ah yes the magical NDAs that say everything beyond “Don’t mention the UFOs”. There is no NDA on earth that would allow such insinuation. Always just enough though for massive amounts of attention to be paid while saying nothing that can incriminate. I wonder how NDAs apply to friend of a friend anyway…

Pilots are as dumb as **** and have gotten many things wrong, yet the conspiracy heads here ignore that.

Evidence which has been disproved is ignored when evaluating new evidence which has the same provenance and “expert” analysis before being proved horseshit. Yet the next weird tic-tac must be it, it cannot be explained (oh crap it was the last 100 times but not this time surely).

Guys you are either trolling or hold yourself to such a low standard of evidence for anything you wish was true that it is quite obvious this is at best wishful thinking. If you think someone wouldn’t perjure themselves on the stand shows a deep ignorance, and it also explains why they offer up basically nothing anyway in the first place. These guys aren’t the experts you think they are, being a pilot does not mean you have unchallenged expertise in optics, especially as it’s been proven again and again they were wrong.

Panrich

Nothing to do with aliens. It's an AI takeover. This is only the beginning. Once they refine their machines and stop them crashing, we're all in big trouble.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907357#Comment_120907357

Not the answer we want, so there’s the evidence of the cover up.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909061#Comment_120909061

I don't mind alien believers, I think they are quite harmless. Sure I believe there is life out there in universe, but whether it's intelligent and has managed interstellar travel (and is "crash landing" here) is muuuch more of a stretch.

Unfortunately, it's one of these things that's very high on belief and very low on credible evidence. In these situations people tend to cling to very sketchy info and hearsay much more than they should. Objectivity goes out the window and next thing you know there's a guy making a whole bunch of claims of stuff he heard from someone else who heard it from someone else.

maninasia

There is radar data too, and it wasnt just one sighting but many sightings over months. The radar data has never been publicly teleased for unknown reasons.

emo72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909349#Comment_120909349

Not clinging to hearsay or sketchy info. There has been no smoking gun so far. But I'd lean into it and investigate further. It'll either be NHI or something unusual. Or sometime easily explainable. Everyone should be a skeptic. However coming at it from the angle of it's not worth investigating is equally as ignorant. Wait and see what happens, something is up.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909448#Comment_120909448

These things are absolutely worth investigating.

But from the position of "Why were our sensors not working correctly", "Why did the sensor malfunction", "Why are the pilots seeing things", "who is flying tech in our airspace which we don't detect"???

Not "well that looked odd, must be aliens".

Hamsterchops

Now that US Congress is involved I think we've got to a tipping point in getting to the bottom of this enduring mystery. Much talk of names & locations being divulged by Mr Grusch in a SCIF, so this will be the acid test for his claims, so that by the next public hearing those congressional representatives will surely have something to say!

Grusch will either look like a crazy tin-foil idiot or there will be substance to some or all of his claims. And if its all baloney then this has finally brought it to a head.

Looking forward to the next hearing whenever that is? Three months, six months time? There might even be a drip feed from those SCIF meetings?

emo72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909921#Comment_120909921

Yes. It could be something prosaic. It could be something unusual. Why rule out NHI then? The debate here is some people ruling out NHI. When in fairness everything should be left in the table. Agree?