So UFOs aren't a theory anymore - but we still don't know what they are

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914508#Comment_120914508

The reverse is equally as true. It's possible that scanning for them is easy, but they never considered actually flying here. Both ways are equally as likely if we are to believe that we can't know anything about aliens motivations.

But we do know that long range scanning would take much less energy that sending ships faster than light to a different planet, and that scanning would not run the risk of being noticed and discovered. So if the conceit is that they want to observe us but want to keep themselves secret, long range scanning would be the more obvious choice.

Believers don't want to consider this because it doesn't support the notion that UFOs are flying around everywhere, so they throw out all of the rules they impose on others and decide such a scenario is impossible.

raspberrypi67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914539#Comment_120914539

It's all a waste of time discussing this. Until there is some legitimate evidence in the offing...It is a bit strange that it's mostly happening on one part of this planet. They must be intrigued by the Americans.

Drumpot

To stuff like this I’m agnostic. There really isn’t enough in this to say “it’s aliens” but I am curious as to what benefit it is to the authorities to hold back information (like radar files etc).

I also wonder if people think the “whistleblowers” are just looking for fame? What’s their motive? I mean you can understand why a person wouldn’t raise their head on this topic while in service, it’s a career ender.

Could it be the US way of showing off high tech without showing it off directly? I mean look at how the US responded to the China balloon , but they brushed off these unidentified objects without explaining to personnel, that does seem odd!

On a completely tangent point, I think of the sims theory that a lot of people subscribe to (that we are living in a sim). I mean even the Big Bang theory , where we came from nothing. These are crazy things that can’t be proven or disproven. We haven’t ventured beyond our moon , yet, the accepted narrative is “because maths”…. It’s like trying to explain the earth, only being able to look out one bedroom window “because my eyes”. In a thousand years (if we are still around) the maths we use today will probably look primitive and innacurate.

This is not to make an argument that this alien theory has more credibility. But I do think a lot of people are happy to believe things more that can be explained through our primitive maths language , our beliefs and be highly dubious of unexplainable phenomena. I also think some people are extremely uncomfortable at the thoughts of potential anarchy, the thoughts of things we cannot explain and their default stance is “that can’t be true”.

We apply human thinking to an alien species which is such a narcissistic method. It’s like the way we see human faces or bodies in clouds or landscapes (like mars) that aren’t there, we are absorbed in ourselves and many discussions I read are ones applying human logic to non human things.

I digress. Anyways, what I have learned in life is that those who are most confident (it’s definitely aliens , it’s definitely not aliens) are usually the most wrong when they are wrong. They miss nuances and aren’t open to correction, therefore only look for evidence or information that confirms their view.

I think back to covid, when I and a few others were ahead of the curve. I was preparing for it early February 2020 while the rest of the world ignored it and derided anybody who suggested it could be a problem. I was a tin foil hat person until I wasn’t.

I think complacency, that’s currently leading us to be boiling frogs in our only planet, is one of humanity’s biggest weakness. Coming back on topic, I’ve watched a bit of the pieces linked in here, I don’t know what those pilots saw, but I’m not an Alien or a pilot so I can’t tell if it’s nonsense or aliens with certain motives or high tech invented that’s yet to be seen in action.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914602#Comment_120914602

It's fundamentally wrong say that for many reasons. Some of the most famous UFO cases never happened in America. There are dozens more cases, but less public outside of the UFO center audience on social media, like the Westall case in Australia or the Zimbabwe case ( examples)

The reason for this is that most of the media attention has been focused on UFO cases that have occurred in the United States, while cases from other countries have been ignored more. Additionally, the lack of resources and access to information from other countries has made it difficult to investigate these cases in depth.

People confuse atmospheric lights or something odd in the sky for UFOs. Having a large number of sightings doesn't prove aliens are present. Often just a natural phenomenon. It can be difficult to differentiate between the two without access to more information.

USS Nimitz UFO Incident had multiple eyewitnesses, pilots, AWAC type aircraft, and warships all observed the same thing over days, which is a strong indication that whatever it was they saw was real. Additionally, the fact that the airspace had been locked down makes it even more likely that the object was something unusual.

Members of Congress are able to access classified government documents that the public does not have access to. If a congressional committee were to investigate these claims, they would have access to the information necessary to substantiate the claims and determine whether or not a UFO retrieval program exists. As long as Congress acts like policemen here, they will not get to the bottom of this secret UFO program.

Powerful interests have been working to keep it secret and out of the public eye for decades. This means that there is a strong motivation for these interests to resist the efforts of people like Grusch and the 40 so people who are trying to bring the program to light. Congress needs to ensure that these people are protected from any potential retaliation. In the new phase. Hearing from actual people working inside legacy UFO programs way forward.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914363#Comment_120914363

If it's technologically possible to build universe travelling spaceships, then it's also likely to be possible to develop advanced cloning technology. This would allow the creation of clones that could serve as pilots, as they would not need to be concerned with the same physical and psychological limitations of humans.

Clones could be engineered to be able to handle the extreme conditions of space travel, such as high G-forces, lack of oxygen, and extreme temperatures. Additionally, they could be engineered to be more resistant to radiation and have longer lifespans than humans. Therefore, they would be better suited to serve as astronauts and pilots than humans in space.

There are some theories that suggest non-humans traverse wormholes and other dimensions, or perhaps they were a breakaway civilization that lived on earth in the past,

In reality, we are dealing with very unusual objects that are traveling at speeds that are impossible by our current methods inside our atmosphere. There is a possibility that they have technology that they are not sharing with the world due to the fact they are part of a breakaway group. Can be either i non-human or some human group has it.

It seems unlikely that these objects were created by human technology, especially since they were reported in a time when planes were operating jet engines. Wouldn't the technology have been just released later? In what way does keeping it hidden serve an operational purpose?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909448#Comment_120909448

Okay, but this isn't the first time, over the last decades we've seen countless experts and whistleblowers come forward with extraordinary claims, and every single one of them, 100% of them, turned out to have no credible evidence except hearsay..

Over 50% of Americans believe in aliens (39% believe in ghosts). The DoD has around 2.8 million employees. Belief is a powerful thing. When some people have a strong belief that is low on evidence, they can fill the gap.

I'm perfectly open to evidence, and if proper evidence comes to light, great! But for now I'm calling horseshit, because, in my experience over decades, this type of person, with these types of views, with that lack of evidence always = BS.

I'll also wager that there's a clique of believers in the UAP dept and wider DoD that have fed Grusch some pretty fantastical stuff. He seems to have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

silliussoddius

Here’s a perfect case to explain the bollockology that is the state of UFO research. Well trained pilots see lights they can’t identify. “Researchers” get the footage, promise to reveal everything in August, the lights don’t just get interpreted as alien craft, but a mothership.

https://twitter.com/MickWest/status/1685384763350339584

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120916555#Comment_120916555

 Grusch background in military intelligence and national security gave him the necessary skills to effectively investigate the military sightings and assess the potential risks they posed. His placement in the UAP team showed that the Pentagon had enough confidence in his abilities to place him in such a sensitive position, and he was given the mandate to create a permanent record of everything the US government had on UAP. His eventual decision to go public with his findings indicated that he had uncovered something so important that he felt the public had the right to know.

He clearly said at conference there to represent 40 other whistleblowers. In this case, the 40 people he was representing would provide more evidence than just hearsay. They were not present at the conference and could not corroborate his story. Debunkers would be wrong to assume that the program does not exist solely based on this conference. This is not the end. Grusch has 40 whistleblowers who talk about this legacy UFO program then this not over by a long shot. This was the most important part missed here: Grusch's list of people who confirm this UFO crash retrieval program. We see what truth in the coming weeks and months.  

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120916810#Comment_120916810

He also said the US has an alien spaceship the size of a football field..

Does he have evidence of it? Apparently not. Has he seen it? No. Someone told him about it. What a turn-up for the books, once again, hearsay.

I would bet significant sums of money that these "40 whistleblowers" are a bunch of people starting to regret filling Grusch's head up with nonsense. One by one they'll play the "I can't say anything because uh they'll get to me" card and we'll end up with nothing. Again.

100% that's my prediction. In 6 months time there won't be alien spaceships, or "alien pilot" bodies or any of that. Just a whole bunch of innuendo, lack of any concrete evidence and hearsay, all filled up with excuses. As always. Likewise, all the believers, who never give up on these people, will be making excuses too and clinging to their next hope. Another hearsay expert.

Dohnjoe

From the head of AARO:

"Hearings and Transparency

Sean M. Kirkpatrick, Ph.D.

Let me begin by saying that the following are my own personal observations and opinions, which do not necessarily represent official DoD or IC positions.

Yesterday, the Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs held an open hearing on UAP during which a government cover-up of extraterrestrials was alleged. I wholeheartedly applaud Congressional efforts to get to the truth about what UAP are and the risks to both pilot safety and national security. I am also absolutely committed to transparency on both the historical mission and the operational mission.

As the Director of AARO's amazingly talented, devoted, and highly motivated team, however, I cannot let yesterday's hearing pass without sharing how insulting it was to the officers of the Department of Defense and Intelligence Community who chose to join AARO, many with not unreasonable anxieties about the career risks this would entail, that have been working diligently, tirelessly, and often in the face of harassment and animosity, to satisfy their Congressionally-mandated mission. They are truthseekers, as am I. But you certainly would not get that impression from yesterday's hearing.

AARO was established, by law, to investigate the allegations and assertions presented in yesterday's hearing. Allegations by its witnesses of retaliation, to include physical assault and hints of murder, are extraordinarily serious, which is why law enforcement is a critical member of the AARO team, specifically to address and take swift action should anyone come forward with such claims. Yet, contrary to assertions made in the hearing, the central source of those allegations has refused to speak with AARO. Furthermore, some information reportedly provided to Congress has not been provided to AARO, raising additional questions about the true commitment to transparency by some Congressional elements.

The Subcommittee, whose questions and oversight duties are irreproachable and in genuine need of answers, has never asked AARO for an update on the reporting system, the historical review, the operations, and the S&T strategy that AARO leads and is undertaking. A rational person watching the hearing might reasonably assume that both the witnesses and the members had an understanding of the Department's and the IC's progress since the establishment of AARO around this time last year, only naturally leading them to conclude that AARO has been ineffective, non-transparent, and delinquent in its legislated mission. AARO briefs the Defense and Intel committees regularly, and since the last NDAA, the Homeland Defense, S&T and several other committees as well.

I am deeply disappointed at the denigration of AARO's dedicated men and women hailing from the Department of Defense, Intelligence Community, and Civil partners who are pouring their hearts out working this issue on the behalf of Congress. AARO has the authorities and resources necessary to execute this mission to meet Congressional intent, and as we've stated before, AARO welcomes anyone with knowledge of any of these allegations or programs to talk to us in a safe, secure, and appropriately cleared environment. Rest assured, AARO will follow the data wherever it leads.

Finally, to be clear, AARO has yet to find any credible evidence to support the allegations of any reverse engineering program for non-human technology. Also, to be clear, none of the whistleblowers from yesterday's hearing ever worked for AARO or was ever a representative to AARO, contrary to statements made in testimony and in the media."

Grusch may not be completely truthful.

It gets worse, it looks like he's been friendly with Stratton, the ex-UFO head, who's chief scientist is a regular on the show "Ancient Aliens" and others. These people turn up an aliens conventions and all that.

Seems to me a bunch of alien believers have (or had) managed to get themselves nice positions in the DoD "researching UFOs", and it's possible that Grusch may have taken some of their nuttery at face value and is now unwittingly "whistle-blowing" a whole bunch of made-up alien stories.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120916859#Comment_120916859

 There have been numerous instances in which the US government has not been forthcoming with the truth, such as 9/11 and JFK cover-ups. This lack of transparency has caused many people to question the government's motives and intentions.

Many of the members of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) Task Force are affiliated with the Central Intelligence Agency, which has a history of withholding information. As such, it may be difficult to determine whether Grusch's claims about UFOs are reliable or not without further evidence.

There may be some good people ( hopefully Grusch) within US intelligence who want the UFO truth to be known. Anyway, it's early days and we'll see how it turns out here.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917134#Comment_120917134

Your personal conspiracies about JFK, 911, etc are personal beliefs, not to be confused with facts.

Due to preset beliefs some individuals automatically assume someone like Grusch is a "good guy" and "telling the truth" because he's supporting one of their beliefs (aliens exist). That's confirmation bias.

Maybe he is telling the truth, maybe all this aliens stuff and spaceships exist. The problem is, he's setting off way too many red flags.

You are trying to put a professional sheen on it, but all signs point to him being someone who has simply believed every far-fetched story he's been told about aliens from "insiders". It would be great if it were all true, but unfortunately I suspect we're going to see it unravel, that this guy will then double-down as he realises it and play the whole "I can't give you the info my life in danger yadda yadda" spiel we hear every time. And it will be yet another UFO nothing burger in 6 months time.

The hardcore aliens believers will cling onto his every word until it once again becomes clear he has no evidence, they'll grow bored (but still remain loyal to him) while they search for the next "whistle-blower" or expert or grainy piece of footage to tantalize their beliefs.

celtic_oz

Conspiracies can last decades to play out unfortuantely, which this one is bound to, so we are stuck listening to the contrite smuggness above for a while yet

In the meantime lets bathe in some Lazar

Here and Here

Hamsterchops

I've posted it before, so I'll mention it again - TicTac.

Leaving Grusch & his extraordinary claims out of the equation for just one moment, let's go back to Commander Fravor and his TicTac . . . can we just dismiss this sighting as a balloon or a meteorite?

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918542#Comment_120918542

No, it's not being dismissed as being a balloon or meteorite. But those are still significantly more likely reasons for what was seen than ET.

It should absolutely be figured out what these observations actually were, but to make the leap to "aliens" is just lazy and just a variation on previous generations not understanding something so stating that God did it. Now instead we have aliens did it to replace that failure to figure it out.

Hamsterchops

..... not actually leaping to "Aliens", but something "Non human" more than likely is responsible for the TicTac and similar events. Alien conjures up the vastness of space and distance, planets thousands of light years away, hence the non human label that I notice is gaining traction (whatever that means)?

What Non human points to is still of course the greatest mystery of all, which still needs to be investigated. In the meantime I do not think we can discount the likes of Commander Fravor & Alex Deitrich, for they are/were professional eyewitnesses to some form of tangible Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. The TicTac was real and yet not made by human hands, thus it is non human in origin, so what was it?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919054#Comment_120919054

Not sure what "non human" can mean beyond aliens. Seems more like a buzzword people are throwing around to make it sound more neutral than it actually is. Like how creationism was rebranded as intelligent design.

sydthebeat

Maybe it's "ghosts"? Or "demons"?

Event horizon was a documentary

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919291#Comment_120919291

I think the Skinwalker Ranch lot are of the opinion that aliens and UFOs are the result of "interdimensional beings".

Other things they could be could be Atlanteans or the denizens of the Hollow Earth.

All of the options I can think of are lot more far fetched than just aliens.

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919274#Comment_120919274

Not sure myself either, although I've heard one or two hints that their origin might be terrestrial & not extraterrestrial, hence the "Non human" moniker.

In the absence of any facts one could speculate....

Looking forward to the release of proper photos + any kind of hard evidence, like anything from an ashtray to a steering wheel, to any "biologics" from a crashed craft.

Great word biologics, never heard it before, thank you Mr Grusch 👏

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919054#Comment_120919054

Could be camera effects (zoom switching) combined with other distortions

The Chilean military and scientists spent two years trying to explain a sighting and couldn't until an online guy demonstrated it was a passenger jet (low filming angle + high zoom + infrared)

Hamsterchops

No sorry, we're well beyond that as in this 2004 Nimitz case I keep going back to and referencing.

Eyewitness + FLIR + radar all from the same episode, with the eyewitnesses being very credible.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919381#Comment_120919381

Yea. Those "hints" are marketing.

Real research doesn't "drop hints" and make innuendo.

And again, not sure what "non human terrestrial intelligence" would be that doesn't sound more out there than aliens.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919505#Comment_120919505

I'm reading up to date analysis of the 2004 case, there's some decent speculation but we haven't identified the issue (we may never identify it). Ergo it's still being discussed. My point was that the Chilean military and scientists had the same situation, were very credible witnesses. It was later explained.

When we point a million cameras at the sky at a million objects, there are going to be unidentified cases, guaranteed.

The problem, as always, is that some people make the leap: unidentified = "dragons" (in this case "aliens").

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919054#Comment_120919054

What is "non human" if it isn't aliens?

Are you suggesting that it could be cats and that would be a more likely scenario?

Hamsterchops

I'm not suggesting anything, but they (Grusch & Co) are talking about "Non human" craft & non human biologics!

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920616#Comment_120920616

Again weird that they use this term when it can only be referring to aliens.

Unless they're refering to fairies or Atlanteans or something.

Or they're keeping things vague to appeal to a wider market of believers...

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920616#Comment_120920616

Aliens, he is directly suggesting aliens. Pilots, spaceships, the whole 9 yards.

He just doesn't want to say it directly so we get "non-humans" and "biologics".

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920616#Comment_120920616

OK then, we'll assume that you are referring to cats then seeing as they are non human.

What is it that makes you think cats are responsible for the flying tic tac? In all observed interaction with cats they have never shown any ability to construct flying vehicles, or even non flying vehicles. They do quite well with landing on their feet when jumping off tall things, but I don't believe there were any tall buildings in the vicinity of where the flying tic tac was seen so doubtful that it was cats making attempts to skydive either.

Ninthlife

Lets say UAPs are terrestrial and Defence Contractors are responsible. It was mentioned in the Congressional Hearing that Defence Contractors were over charging the Dept of Defence and using the excess to fund non authorized projects which have zero Government oversight/authorisation. Trillions of dollars are spent annually on the military in America. Dept of Defence has never successfully passed an audit either apparently.

For decades cattle mutilations have been attributed to UFO/UAPs and also Black Ops.

The term non human biologics has been used, which is an ambiguous term. What if these contractors are doing unethical experiments combining machine with biological parts. The harvesting of organs, abductions, mutilations are potentially all part of these experiments and they are creating synthetic AI controlled drones.

It would be ideal for any 3rd part contractor to have the 'alien' agenda pushed as it takes all eyes off them. Richard Doty (See the documentary Mirage Men) who served as an intelligence officer for the Air Force has gone on record numerous times stating that the Air Force actively pushed the UFO agenda in order to distract from real new tech testing.