Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032259#Comment_122032259

Mmmm, split Leinster in 2 you say😜

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032304#Comment_122032304

Well from a set-up point of view, Munster is easier to split. Already have the North and South split in the Branch and have Thomond and Musgrave Parks.

In terms of player depth Leinster is obviously the obvious one.

And in terms of history, you had the exiles in the interpros for a while as I recall...

AdamD

Split St Michael's college in two

AbusesToilets

Get rid of CCs, increase bonuses to players for making the international squads, tournament squads, match day 23s. Would be fairer and reflective of player performance.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033075#Comment_122033075

I doubt the players would go for this at all. What happens if a first-choice international tears his cruciate in the first game of the season?

You'd also then have to limit the size of training squads, thus making it harder for guys to get a break.

pickarooney

A guy with a torn ligament is no longer first choice, unfortunately.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033075#Comment_122033075

The money will still be going to Leinster player and people will still moan and complain, it will be just a new version of the complaining

Plus do you remove the CC from Ulster so they are now in a worse position?
Or so it just remove CC from Leinster and let everyone else have them? 🤣

aloooof

Was the imbalance intended/expected? Yes and no.

The whole set-up is geared to producing test-level player to populate the Irish team which drives the whole IRFU.

What we've seen in the last ten years is one province do exactly what it's supposed to, so yes that bit was intended, even if we didn't expect it to be quite so successful.

On the flip side, the other two bulk suppliers to the national team have fallen off a cliff, so no, that bit was not intended or expected.

But the bit that is working as it should seems to be the problem?

I know a certain poster will come along, call me disingenuous and say that Ulster/Munster can never match Leinster's output, or some other trite deflection, but next season, there will ONE centrally contracted product of the Ulster and Munster academies combined. One. And you'd struggle to point to anyone and say they're hard done by not to have one. Yeah POM could have got another year, what odds would that make in the bigger picture?

The imbalance is not due to the favourable treatment of Leinster, which again, we've yet to hear an explanation for why the Aussie and English guy would do so, it's down to the collapse of the Ulster and Munster conveyor belts.

But apparently Jordie Barrett going on a J1 is the issue.

@Former Former Former

I've never mentioned "favourable treatment of Leinster". I've literally said the opposite; that it like wasn't intended / expected.

I've also never mentioned that "Jordie Barrett going on a J1" / central contracts are "the" issue. They are an issue.

The points about player development are obviously fair. But if the purposes of central contracts was to keep the best players in Ireland, and also to reduce the financial burden of those players on the Provinces (plural), then we have some unintended consequences here.

If this is an outlier in the distribution of central contracts across the Provinces since their inception (and it is, by an order of magnitude), then it seems perfectly reasonable for fans of other provinces to question the current setup.

The fact the IRFU are conducting a review suggests, at least, there are a few questions worth asking here.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033799#Comment_122033799

I don't think the purpose of central contracts is to explicitly reduce the financial burden of those players on the provinces; I always thought it was more an acknowledgement that these players are of such significance to the national team that they have to be negotiated with centrally so as to ensure their retention for Ireland.

The only solution that will remedy the imbalance in central contracts is when Ulster & Munster are producing players worthy of receiving them. There are already guys in the pipeline who look like this will apply to them - you could make a case for all of Jack Crowley (probably his next contract possibly), Craig Casey (further down the road), Brian Gleeson (obviously further away), David McCann (who knows?) and guys like that in time.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033818#Comment_122033818

Then why do you think the IRFU think a review is worthwhile?

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033839#Comment_122033839

I have honestly no idea, but it could be for a multitude of reasons.

I'd imagine they did not enjoy the public spectacle this year around POM's contract, for example, and how that all played out publicly, and realised they need to get more on the same page with the management team and the provinces around managing the 'final' contracts of certain players.

Possibly a scenario where you've guys like JGP as a nailed on starter for years but not on a central contract, while his back up is is something that needs to be discussed?

People can attach whatever label they want to the type of contract, but ultimately the players who are on central contracts at the moment are the ones who deserve them, and the IRFU are going to do what they can do to ensure the very best players are consistently retained and available for Ireland. That isn't going to change.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033905#Comment_122033905

All reports suggest JGP is getting a central contract at the end of this season, right? So that hardly seems to be like a something that would trigger a review. (There are plenty of examples over the years of provincially-contracted guys getting selected ahead of centrally-contracted guys; this often comes up when people incorrectly claim CC players have to start / be selected).

I'd suggest the biggest imbalance in CC's, by an order of magnitude, since their inception is far higher up the agenda.

(An aside, but I'm interested if you have data on which players were centrally contracted over the years?)

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033922#Comment_122033922

What do you think a review there is going to tell them?

Q: Why do Leinster have the most central contracts at present?

A: Leinster have the best players at the moment. They are the bulk supplier to the Irish team.

Follow up Q: Why do Leinster have the best players at the moment?

A: Because Leinster have by far the most productive academy system. 8 of the 10 proposed Leinster CC recipients are Leinster Academy products (plus the Munster CC recipient too).

This is the line of thinking I can't seem to follow - people griping about Leinster's disparity in CCs seem to think the solution is to allow them (Munster & Ulster) to sign more NIQs? How will that improve the number of CC's ultimately awarded to Munster or Ulster?

The only solution to that problem is Munster or Ulster need to produce players worthy of CCs.

What you, and no one else so far, have managed to do is show any kind of link between Leinster's current huge collection of CCs and Leinster's ability to continue to produce players worthy of CCs. For that to have been the case, you'd think Leinster would have had a huge overweight allocation of CCs c. 10 years ago when this current crop were coming through, but that isn't the case.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033839#Comment_122033839

The existing high performance director has been in charge for ten years, the central contract system has been in place for more than 20 years. Bringing in a new director would seem to be a logical point to do a review.

I don't think it's an admission of failure of the system at all.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033963#Comment_122033963

That's all fair, but it does suggest there may be questions worth answering.

That it coincides with the biggest imbalance in CC's, by an order of magnitude, since their inception (tm, at this point) I'd agree.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033979#Comment_122033979

And this imbalance coincides with the most successful period in the national team's history, and success of the national team is absolutely paramount.

I'm not sure the IRFU is going to see it quite the same way you do.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033961#Comment_122033961

They may also ask questions like the following.

Q: If the imbalance of central contracts means Leinster can afford Jordie Barrett as a squad player, could that money be better spent elsewhere in the eco-system towards helping other provinces produce more players good enough to receive central contracts, without materially impacting Leinster?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034005#Comment_122034005

Which may be the case, and they may keep the status quo which is currently compounding Leinster's natural advantage.

Here's the thing; do you think this will impact fans (and therefore the IRFU) in the long run? I think it's definitely an issue, and one the IRFU need to (and will) consider.

Clo-Clo

One thing I find strange, at best the 4 Irish provinces have 3 trophies to go after each season. The URC, Challange Cup and Champions Cup.

The last team to win the Challange Cup is Leinster over 10 years ago. I don't see why some of the other provinces haven't made a push to win it when you look at the list of teams who have won that trophy.

Yet again this season Ireland had 2 teams in that competition after dropping down and both could of won it but didn't. Now that has nothing to do with Leinster and winning any trophy would of been a huge lift for the provinces.

The extra revenue from winning that as well would also help in terms of investment.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031538#Comment_122031538

"Disparity doesn't bother you" That's a beut and unnecessary. Unfortunately I think I'm just going to have to disagree.

In simple terms I would have no problem if Ulster had the majority of all of the central contracts. None at all.

I've already given an example of why the IRFU aren't going to ask Leinster to pay a portion of their CC. I could spend another hour or two explaining the damage this would do and why they wouldn't then use this "centrally saved money to bolster the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies, and talent identification systems" - Using Ulster as a specific example and highlighting the shambles they have made from top to bottom.

I've championed for Baloucone, Lowry and Hume all to be given their chance with Ireland. I could spend another hour listing the absolute hames Ulster have made of the player development of Baloucone, Lowry, Doak, Hume and Stockdale.

Stockdale! The starting winger for Ireland in Feb 2020 when he signed his 3 year Central Contract. He wasn't offed a new central contract because his form has nosedived. That's the policy and it makes complete sense.

I would not be surprised if Stockdale, McCloskey, Baloucone, Lowry, O'Toole and few more all have that €110k portion of their contracts paid by the IRFU in that 'Tier 1 scale'.

Just because they aren't on CC's doesn't mean Ulster aren't already subsidised. We also don't know how many of these Tier 1 contracts Leinster have.

Its impossible to be definitive without all the details been made available. None you us know the extent of what the IRFU have pumped into Ulster.

"Interestingly, the IRFU are undertaking a review of their contractual system, which will be completed before Humphreys takes over from Nucifora."

For all we know the basis of this review could be:

-Should we continue subsidising so many of these Tier 1 (€110k) and Tier 2(€90k) contracts?

-Should we reduce the amount of them because we aren't getting enough return on investment?

-Should we let the likes of a Stockdale leave Ulster and call him up to the national squad if he improves/injuries?

-Should we use those actual real savings to help further assist/expand clubs, academy's, coaching within those provinces?

-Should we use these actual real saving for more Emerging Ireland tours and games?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034022#Comment_122034022

Yes - we can see that a decent minority of Ulster and Munster fans have stopped supporting Ireland because not "enough" of their players are being picked, and I don't expect that to change any time soon.

I think the way the Barrett signing is being spun, despite being utterly irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things, is adding to the dissatisfaction and if Leinster go on to win the European Cup and make up the bulk of the squad for South Africa, it's just going to get worse. I think the central contracts thing is only a small piece of a much wider issue.

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033979#Comment_122033979

So if we end up with a fairer re-distribution of CCs between the provinces, would the end result be that some of Leinster's fringe players would be forced to go abroad? If so, I think that would be a good thing for Ireland. Imagine if the likes of Frawley, Byrne, Larmour were playing regularly for Eng/French teams for the past few years. They'd probably be much better players now and would give Ireland more options.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034046#Comment_122034046

I don't think it's that simple; very consistently 3, and sometimes all 4 of our teams don't start in that competition. So it's not going to be something they directly target.

"Yet again this season Ireland had 2 teams in that competition after dropping down"

I think the "yet again" is overstating this, no? Is it not the norm that we typically only have 1, and only occasionally 2? It's a long time since either Leinster or Munster have been in the Challenge Cup, iirc.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034007#Comment_122034007

A few things here -

a) He's not even remotely close in all likelihood to the most expensive ever imports here, especially given the duration of his contract and the fact it's on record he turned down bigger offers in Japan.

b) He's clearly not coming as a squad player.

For all the anguished talk this week and classifying Leinster as some sort of unstoppable force, the reality is that Leinster haven't won a trophy in the past 2 years.

I've said it before, but I'm not one of those fans who think the good times last forever. Eventually, things change. There is a window when you have a squad good enough to win European Cups, and Leinster have arguably already left 2 or 3 behind them.

This is the management team going out there this season and gambling in certain areas (i.e. Snyman signing) to improve Leinster's chances of delivering European Cups while the bulk of the squad is still in that window.

Leinster have an entitlement, like all the clubs, to go and sign a couple of NIQs. When they're doing that - it makes sense to go and get the absolute best player you can afford. It's particularly necessary in a club like Leinster where this a real fear that the culture could become way too insular.

ionadnapokot

Does anyone know if all NIQ's are solely funded by the province?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034116#Comment_122034116

And equally, fans of others clubs are entitled to ask questions when they see an imbalance of central contracts on a scale we've never seen before.

We're clearly not going to agree, FTD, so I suggest we leave it at that.

(Fwiw, I still am interested if you have data on CC players over the years).

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034149#Comment_122034149

No, some NIQs have been funded by private funding

Rugbyf565

Can we please stop discussing the Jordie Barrett transfer in here. It is a smart economic and strategic investment that Leinster have made. It is not unprecedented, Leinster have signed All Black Brad Thorn before on a 6 month contract. There should be no further discussion.

Mod: No back-seat modding.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034171#Comment_122034171

ok like Snyman and DdA at Munster. Sorry I should have asked - has the IRFU ever partially funded a NIQ? Like Lealiifano

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2017/08/21/christian-lealiifano-signs-for-ulster/#:~:text=Australian%20international%20out%2Dhalf%20Christian,on%20a%20five%2Dmonth%20deal.