Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034505#Comment_122034505

I dont follow your logic iv never mentioned joe mccarthy

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034500#Comment_122034500

Negative. Just questions.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034537#Comment_122034537

I doubt that i could ask questions right back but i can imagine your conversing in good faith

aloooof

Will no Irish team ever be allowed to be favourite for the EC again? Obviously if they are favourite for the EC they are also going to be favourite for the URC.

If you arent hyperbolic and there is such an imbalance then your solution for Leinster not to be allowed sign Barrett and his six month contract be spread across the other provinces will not even scratch the surface.

It is like those who say the world is on fire due to climate change and then propose an extra recycling bin.

Either things aren't as bad as you say or there needs to be a huge change in the IRFU approach, which will significantly drag Leinster back. There is no way to have it both ways.

@Foxtrol

Will no Irish team ever be allowed to be favourite for the EC again?

Not at all the point I was making.

For clarity. I'm not at all saying that, alone, is the sole solution. (There needs to be others too). But it is indicative of a problem.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034484#Comment_122034484

Inflammatory language aside ("ponce, ensemble of dimwits"), it's not mutually exclusive.

With regards Munster, yes they struggle to produce a centre (much like Leinster, comparatively, struggle to produce a 9). But going back 5-6 years or more, that argument would be much broader than just centre. I think it's fair to say things are going in the right direction there?

Ulster fans will be more familiar with there situations, but it seems to me they absolutely have questioned some of the recruitment and managerial decisions.

You can ask all that AND still think the imbalance in central contracts are a problem too.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034423#Comment_122034423

Did I say that? I said the 6 nations is the money earner in Irish rugby. The World Cup isn't

When have we stopped players leaving?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034465#Comment_122034465

Really?

Anytime he played against Leinster he was never a stand out player. In Europe he has struggled against the top teams.

He went to the WC in 2019 and it didn't work out, he didn;t really live up to the billing when playing

He hasn't played for Ireland for years, was never in the conversation till the very end of the last cycle when Ireland already had a number of players in that position. All of whom I would say are better

He went to the WC with South Africa, his home country, because of an injury to another player

He won it and fair play to him but not sure Farrell or anyone else would even pick him now if available for Ireland. So why would the IRFU see it as a mistake or offer to pay his wages?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034484#Comment_122034484

This is the part, Ulster players are not improving, they seem to be going backwards. Bala went on the EI tour and was around the Irish squad, now he isn't even in the picture. That's not Leinster fault. Similar to other players in Ulster.

Doak at this stage should be banging the door down on the Irish squad, I really rate him but has he improved in the last 15 months?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034484#Comment_122034484

If I were a Leinster fan, I'd wonder where the hell all my silverware was.

You naughty boy, Dub.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034157#Comment_122034157

Yeah, but fans should focus their ire for the lack of central contracts at their own provinces appropriately - at their own player progression pathways.

I genuinely have no idea from this what your proposed solution to the central contract disparity is from your multiple posts on the topic.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034764#Comment_122034764

I've said earlier I don't know what the solution is, and that it's not an easy problem to fix. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034732#Comment_122034732

JameJames ryan dosent stand out either its the nature of the role.

Your not really giving him his due with thr injured player comment rassie picked him as soon as he was eligable and has fairly consistently sung his praises. He was key for them in that tighthead lock role. I find it hard to think you can honestly see what hes done and say hed be of no benefit to us

Like the player x vs y conversations hard in general because what you see is subjective. It really cant be with him any more though if your being honest

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034792#Comment_122034792

Rassie did not pick Kleyn as soon as he was eligible - his last cap for Ireland was Oct 12th 2019 (against Samoa), so he was eligible for SA from October 2022 onwards (the birthright transfer rules were passed from the start of 2022).

SA picked a squad after that to tour Europe (and an A squad) and Rassie selected 7 locks ahead of him at that juncture: Eben Etzebeth, Franco Mostert, Lood de Jager, Jason Jenkins, Salmaan Moerat, Marvin Orie and Ruan Nortje.

Lood de Jager was an ever-present for SA in the 4 years preceding the RWC, and it is fairly safe to say that absent his heart ailment which kept him out of rugby for an extended time, that Jean Kleyn wouldn't have been selected ahead in the RWC either.

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034716#Comment_122034716

"Ireland also targets to win the WC, they have said that for the last 2 World Cups, that doesn;t mean you bankrupt the IRFU trying to achieve it"

Yes you did!

I didn't say we stop players leaving. I just said we need to allow the Irish coach to pick players who are playing in other countries.

custom_build

Rob Baxter has a refreshing, and reasoned opinion on the matter...

Exeter boss Rob Baxter insists the Gallagher Premiership should aim to match Leinster’s ambition by developing their own ‘Fortnum and Mason’ recruitment policy.
The Irish province have pulled off a major coup by signing New Zealand’s brilliant centre Jordie Barrett while in the prime of his career as he has agreed a short-term deal for next season.
Baxter believes the 27-year-old’s sabbatical is valuable for European rugby and wants the English top flight to also become an appealing destination for overseas stars.

“It makes you a bit jealous that you’re not working in Leinster’s recruitment department!” Baxter said.
“I know (former Saracens, Sale and Worcester director of rugby) Steve Diamond once said it depends what shop you go shopping in: is it Waitrose or is it Aldi?”

Referencing an upmarket London department store, Baxter continued: “It might be Fortnum and Mason depending on how you want to look at it!
“If Irish rugby, Leinster and the United Rugby Championship can get their house in order to allow them to invest in players, their programme and their coaches like they do, you have to say fair play.

“My response would be, ‘let’s not try to say it’s not fair and limit Leinster, let’s look to ways we can get to that level of competition with them’.
“You can look around and say, ‘let’s stop everyone else doing it because we can’t do it’. Or you go, ‘what are they doing to develop that level of interest and finance and why can’t we do it?’.
“I don’t think it’s bad for these competitions to have world-class players. What we want to find out is ways that we can do it as well.
“You have to work to make the competition look attractive and the way the game is played look attractive.
“To get that deal in place to sign a player you have to get a lot of financial bits and pieces right – and that runs right from the top of the game to the bottom in the country.
“There’s a lot we have to do to get to that level, but why shouldn’t we be aiming for it? That’s what we should be trying to do.”
The Premiership has defied its critics by supplying two teams to the Investec Champions Cup semi-finals in Northampton and Harlequins, with Leinster and Toulouse completing the line-up.
Baxter believes that has been managed even though the league has temporarily been reduced to a “developing competition” due to the financial implications of the pandemic and lack of funds in the English game.
“Two sides in the semi-finals is obviously fantastic. We want to expose the Premiership to as many new viewers as we can, for obvious reasons. Whether we make it a regular occurrence, that’s the challenge,” the director of rugby said.
“The Premiership is expected to be a developing competition again. We’ve had to do a lot of things around Covid and the financial situation in the country.
“We’ve had to make some adjustments but we will hope as a competition that we will regrow ourselves over the coming period as well.”

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034792#Comment_122034792

He was key for them in that tighthead lock role. 

was he?

He didn't feature in the 23 for either the QF or SF, and got 20 minutes off the bench in the final. He didn't feature against Scotland and got 30 minutes off the bench against Ireland (which they lost).

Fair play to Kleyn but as a stick to beat Andy Farrell with, it's pretty weak.

phog

Its gas the hoops some posters will jump just to be right.

Kleyn won't get capped by SA

Kleyn won't play in the RWC

Kleyn won't play in the bigger games in the RWC

Kleyn only played 20 mins in the RWC Final, a final that SA won

There's a ton of Irish player that would love to be able to say they played 20 min in a RWC final, not to mind playing in one that they won.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034978#Comment_122034978

That's absolutely fine, and he's right - the other provincial branches should be looking to see if there are things they can learn and emulate from Leinster, both in terms of player development and on the business side of things.

But Exeter (and the Prem) obviously don't have a remit that extends to the other Provinces; the IRFU do.

I think it's reasonable that the IRFU should consider if the imbalanced nature of the central contracts now could have ramifications to the other provinces or more broadly, rather than just telling the provinces you need to "look to ways [you] can get to that level of competition with them’."

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034552#Comment_122034552

Go ahead. Ask away.

Dubinusa

Indeed! Underachieving in my opinion.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034743#Comment_122034743

The talent that Ulster have in the backs in particular has been utterly wasted over the last 4ish years. Doak, McCloskey, Hume, Lowry, Mcllroy, Baloucoune, Stockdale. Those are all guys who at one stage would've been in the conversation as being the best in their position in the country, or having shown the potential to be. Criminal how badly managed and coached they've been.

Former Former Former

..

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035045#Comment_122035045

I agree, it’s gas to see the hoops some posters will jump through. You’d think Jean Kleyn was the South African Dupont on here sometimes. He’s a decent player and hopefully he manages to get back from his eye issue which sounds concerning to me. Even now, I don’t think Farrell would be starting him ahead of Ryan, McCarthy and Beirne. There’s an argument that he’d be vying with Iain Henderson as a squad depth player given Henderson’s recent form.

But Jean Kleyn won a World Cup I hear some say. So did Marvin Orie. I wouldn’t be picking him for Ireland either.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034903#Comment_122034903

You should read the post. You said Ireland shouldn't care about the 6 nation results in the quest to win a WC, without the 6 nations you don't have to worry about a WC

Why should we pick players in other countries when we have the best players in Ireland?

The plan you seem to have come up is force players to leave Ireland and go to UK/France. Then when they are playing in another country select those players. Why not keep them in Ireland and select them playing for the provinces?

By forcing them to leave Ireland you are making the provinces weaker, the teams they are playing stronger. Plus you are making Ireland weaker because they will not be available outside of the international windows

Every union is jealous of the setup Ireland has and you want to throw it away, saying you wouldn't mind losing 6 nation games. Which pays for rugby in Ireland. What exactly is the point of all of this? just to make Leinster players move(the list of players you gave all happened to play for Leinster)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035045#Comment_122035045

Simple fact is if Kleyn was still available for Ireland he wouldn't be selected for Ireland

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034792#Comment_122034792

He was available for Ireland for 4 years and never made a squad.

If he was available now, he still wouldn't be selected.

He had a decent season last year, before that when he came up against the top clubs he never commanded the position. Even last year has he ever made a big difference in a game v Leinster? even when playing against the URC team

Others have pointed out the minutes he played in WC, it is great for him and I wish him well for his WC win and hope he is back playing soon. Is he a loss to Ireland? no IMO

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035621#Comment_122035621

Yes that's probably true

He's another simple fact, we exited the RWC at the QF again, SA won two RWCs in a row.

Here's another simple fact, Kleyn played in the final too, despite a few "experts" here telling us all he wouldn't make the squad.

Former Former Former

A player not good enough for Ireland ends up playing for another Tier 1 country.

Only on boards.ie could it be a bad thing that we have too many good players.

Rugbyf565

let’s just all agree to disagree and cheer on the success of each others provinces!

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035661#Comment_122035661

and?

He isn't an Irish player, he played for SA and good for him. As you admit he wouldn't even get selected if he was available now so why is he even brought up?