Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clegg

Neil Fissler of Rugbypass reporting that Munster and the IRFU are looking at Dan Kelly and Piers O'Connor, both Irish qualified.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/munster-and-irfu-circling-england-centres/

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014696#Comment_122014696

Didn't Munster not have two centres playing on the wing last week? if the French lad does leave would they not play some of them at centre?

Would they be better at looking at other positions, from an Ireland point of view it's not really a weak area at the moment and lots of good young centres around

Clo-Clo

I have a feelings, can't say why :-) , that Keenan is carrying a serious injry from the 6 nations. Leinster are nursing him from game to game, I think if they lost today he would have been out for the season

But I could see him not going to SA

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015830#Comment_122015830

SOB has played centre before, but Zebo never has.

Presume you mean Daly; iirc he played centre at underage level, but he's only ever started 1 game at centre for Munster than was that in 2018. He's clearly a winger who can also cover FB now.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015836#Comment_122015836

No harm in the context of developing back-ups.

Equally I'd be ok with them leaving Aki at home - Given his age and the amount of Rugby he has played giving him the summer off would be good for him.

Any combo of Henshaw, Ringrose , McCloskey and now Osbourne is fine..

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015897#Comment_122015897

zebos started one game at 13 previously ;)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022402#Comment_122022402

I doubt Aki will want to miss a big tour like that but I can see value in resting him, it’s been a long season

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022623#Comment_122022623

Still fewer than Leamy I think. ;)

Podge_irl

Suspect Aki will get plenty of rest in the business end of the season anyway.

ionadnapokot

"All male and female players in the XVs and sevens games, including the academies, are centrally contracted to at least some extent by the IRFU. Accordingly, they can all be called up to training sessions, development tours, A games and so forth. Deducting the 12 to 16 players on national contracts leaves circa 160 or so male players with provincial senior contracts. Each contract is underpinned by the union on a scaled payment structure of €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000, and is individually supplemented by the provinces as they see fit or can afford."

"Interestingly, the IRFU are undertaking a review of their contractual system, which will be completed before Humphreys takes over from Nucifora."

Irish players currently under national contracts until the end of the 2023-24 season

Leinster (7): Andrew Porter, Tadhg Furlong, James Ryan, Josh van der Flier, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose and Hugo Keenan.

Munster (3): Tadhg Beirne, Peter O’Mahony, Conor Murray.

Connacht (1): Bundee Aki.

Ulster (1): Iain Henderson.

Irish players under national contracts in the 2024-25 season

Leinster (10): Andrew Porter, Dan Sheehan, Tadhg Furlong, James Ryan, Josh van der Flier, Caelan Doris, Jamison Gibson-Park, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose and Hugo Keenan.

Munster (1): Tadhg Beirne.

Connacht (1): Bundee Aki.

Ulster (1): Iain Henderson.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/04/17/blue-bloods-irfu-national-contract-system-will-continue-to-load-the-dice-in-leinsters-favour/

pickarooney

The worst thing about that list is that it's actually generous to Ulster. Three centres on central contract doesn't make a huge amount of sense either.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029045#Comment_122029045

3 second rows as well. Seems strange that 4 positions have 6 of the 13 central contracts.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029148#Comment_122029148

The second row one is even odder looking when one of the two starters isn’t one of the 3 on a CC

salmocab

looking at the list realistically who else would deserve one now? Probably a bit early for Crowley and Joe Mc.
Lowe and Hansen maybe?

Clegg

Hansen definitely. He's so important to how Ireland wants to attack. Nash played well during the Six Nations. But was a step or two down from Mack.

Lowe deserves one as well, but he's probably too old now. Especially for an outside back.

Podge_irl

Yeah Hansen is a no brainer. Agree on Lowe being too old. Think it's bit early for Crowley but he'll get one anyway.

CONSI

Crowley deserves one, we have to get behind a new number 10 so a central contract is important for that.

irelandrover

If Mccarthy stays as the starting second row then at the next round I'd probably drop Ryan from his, as well as Henshaw, Henderson, and Aki.

Hansen and maybe Lowe to get a central contract.

To be honest i think the case for central contracts is getting less now that there isn't games during the international windows.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029187#Comment_122029187

There are always going to be those anomalies with this system.

McCarthy has just come on the scene and has very recently usurped Henderson/Ryan in the pecking order and if that remains the case he'll probably take Hendersons/Ryans contract when it comes up for renewal.

When one "nailed on" starter retires there isn't always an immediate person that becomes equally "nailed on".

Right now , Crowley looks like the long term replacement for Sexton but you wouldn't be giving him a central contract just yet. All those on Central contracts have been established regular starters for Ireland for 3+ years before that got that contract.

As I understand it the primary difference (in terms of value) between an international on a central contract and one on a provincial contract is that match fees are guaranteed.

So for example - using random figures ,a Provincial International has a contract for €150k/year and if they are involved in all the Ireland match day squads for a season , they get an additional €50k for those involvements.

The Central contract player just has a flat contract of €200k regardless of their level of involvement , although the assumption is that they would be playing all the games.

Maybe the IRFU could not pay the core contract value any more and just guarantee the "match fee" element for more players for longer.

So instead of paying the full value for ~13 players they could guarantee the match fee element for 25/30 players which would cover a large chunk of the guys regularly involved in teams and squads.

It's all their money anyway , it's just a change in how the account for it and report it.

ionadnapokot

Each contract is underpinned by the union on a scaled payment structure of €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000, and is individually supplemented by the provinces as they see fit or can afford.

I didn't know the extent of this IRFU payment structure for Provincial contracts. I'm assuming most of the contracts for the Provincial players in and around the national Squad are financed at this €90,000 or €110,000 scale.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2022/05/11/hansen-signs-new-long-term-deal-with-connacht/

Based on above (and I'm assuming because it was an IRFU article) Hansen signed a new contract in 2022 (expiring 2025) with €110,000 per season from the IRFU.

Because he's now a mainstay in the starting XV he'll go onto a central contract at the end of 2025.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029297#Comment_122029297

its not a maximum figure, its a subsidy per contract.

so far example with hansen, there is no indication that his contract IS 110k. Its very very likely that Connacht are topping up his contract on top of the 110k.

as to what the final figure is, we dont know, nor should we know.

for example, at leinster James Lowe is absolutely on more than 110K

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029317#Comment_122029317

I think it was mentioned before Lowe was on 300k

Podge_irl

Lots of numbers get "mentioned" though! :)

Though it does seem about right I guess

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029196#Comment_122029196

McCarthy will absolutely get one and Henderson will definitely not get another one.

Henderson's deal is up in 2025 but I don't think McCarthy will have to wait until then, I suspect the IRFU will bump his contract soon enough.

ionadnapokot

Interestingly, the IRFU are undertaking a review of their contractual system, which will be completed before Humphreys takes over from Nucifora.

I'm assuming Humphreys is having some input and/or will have some good ideas of his own.

The only scope for practical change that I can see is an increase within this IRFU "scaled payment structure" ( €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000) for provinces that meet a certain criteria.

e.g. Connacht. How do the IRFU determine the extent of financial support for the Contracts in a Province?

Central Contract: 1. Bundee Aki (XV expires 2025)

Tier 1 Contract (up tp €110k from IRFU): 1. Hansen (XV 2025), 2. Bealham ( XXIII 2025)

Tier 2 Contract (up to €90k from IRFU): 1. Prendergast (Squad 2025), 2. Carty (2025), 3. Blade (Squad 2026) 4. Butler (2024) 5. Joyce (2025?) 6. JJ Hanrahan (2025?)

NIQ Contract: 1. Cordero, 2. Hurley-Langton, 3. Porch (2025, IQ in 2024). IRFU Financial contribution = €X Amount(€0?)

Tier 3 Contract (up to €50k from IRFU): The 49 reaming players in squad and academy.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/10/31/bealham-commits-to-connacht-with-two-year-contract-extension/

CEO: Ruane - Performance Grade B1. PLUS IRFU Didn't have to remove him - TICK

Head Coach: Wilkins (2027) - Performance Grade D1. PLUS IRFU Didn't have to remove him - TICK

Team Performance Grade - C3

Financial Performance Grade - C1

Stadium Grade: Sportsground. Rented from Galway Agricultural and Sports Society. Grade D3

Stadium and Facilities Redevelopment: Cost - €40m Plus(!) with Govt Grant of €20m. Completed for start of 2026/27. IRFU Financial Support = €0(?)

IRFU ALGORITHIM: = €X* million for 24/25 Contracts.

*Heavily weighted on Irish team representation because that is THE cash cow.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/11/24/grand-slam-success-brings-a-more-positive-impact-to-irfu-accounts/

The benefits of having ALL of the Irish players playing in Ireland are Massive.

No system is perfect, but its a bloody good system.

If people have better idea's, fair play, and why do you think the IRFU would not implement them?

The simple cold hard truth is some provinces are underperforming. e.g. Ulster - From the top to the bottom. I don't want to pick on Ulster but its a pertinent example. The IRFU are not going to give them more cash because they haven't seen a return on investment.

Paul Smeenus

So how do the IRFU improve what's coming out of Ulster? Shout at them louder?

ionadnapokot

I mean you can take the hump or you can make a suggestion yourself. I don't know. What do you think?

They sent Richie Murphy up…

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029922#Comment_122029922

Plenty want the system to stay as it is because it benefits their team

ionadnapokot

I don't buy that. My team is Ireland. The IRFU's team is Ireland.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029946#Comment_122029946

Iv yet to see any non leinster fan say this systems not broken. Perhaps i can be proven wrong but those who benefit from a broken system are more likely to defend it.