Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029922#Comment_122029922

I have.

Make each province pay a small part of each central contract and use the centrally saved money to bolster the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies, and talent identification systems. Money goes straight into that, can't be spent on NIQs, contracts or anything else.

Allow provinces other than Munster to host money-spinning games against invited international sides.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030079#Comment_122030079

Do the IRFU not already fund or part fund the academies for the provinces? something was mentioned on a podcast before about the IRFU over the academies. I can't remember what it was before

But lets say they offer more money into the academies, what would you change?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030207#Comment_122030207

I imagine if you talk to any of the academies, they'd have pretty urgent ideas how money could be used to improve what's happening there.

Certainly, in Ulster, they could do with another talent identification officer - someone pointed more towards the clubs than schools. Maybe another Academy place or two? Maybe more/better coaches? More money for the underage pathway? Mayeb a review of the systems with an eye to improving it?

If the point is that we're not bringing enough players through (with which I agree 100%), lets remedy it.

fitzgea1

As a Munster fan, I'd love to see us invest in our academy rather than spending money on expensive NIQs. Look at what proper investment in S&C and facilities done for the Limerick hurlers. I'm not saying it'll definitely work but it would be worth trying I think. I don't think revising how central contracts are distributed is gonna close the gap to Leinster, we need a better feeder system.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029946#Comment_122029946

The IRFU's remit is broader than just the Ireland team.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030316#Comment_122030316

Munster are investing S&C and centres of excellence to help in better feeder systems, IRFU have allowed Munster to turn some of their operational costs for this into the long term loan.

Of course, the provinces need more help with this. None would have anything like the money JP pours into Limerick. He's twice now given €1m to each county so you can only imagine what he's pumping into Limerick.

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030432#Comment_122030432

That's good to know. Would be good if there was some way that province's supporters could contribute to academy funding. I think there'd be an appetite for that. Some kind of fund where people could put e5 a month or something and know that it's going straight into improving the academy.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030079#Comment_122030079

ok.

What's a small amount? €50k each? Leinster will have 10 players on a central contract = €500k.

That €500k of "centrally saved money to bolster the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies, and talent identification systems"

Now to my mind you have now created an unfair system. Each of those players is a regular Starter for Ireland. You are effectively penalising Leinster for producing each and every one of those players. You are also penalising that team in the hope that more players will be produced in the other provinces.

That's some leap when you consider that all of those provincial academy's combined have contributed 2 players (POM & Crowley) to the current starting XV.

Thats a €500k penalty every season for Leinster who also have to pay for all the other Leinster players that played for Ireland this season: Lowe, Baird, McCarthy, Kelleher, Conan, Healy, Frawley, Harry Byrne, Larmour and Ross Byrne.

To pick a round figures of €300k per season for each of those 10 players = €3million per season.

That's not including JOB, Connors, McGrath and Deegan and Ruddock who have also all been capped. €200k = €1m per season

I said it before and ill say it again. The current system is not perfect. But its bloody good. It certainly isn't broken

I dont agree with the premise of Thornleys article that the system is purposely loaded to favour Leinster. Not at all. That type of shite only breeeds resentment. The simple facts are that the best players are playing for Leinster.

Just as they were playing for Munster in 2001.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030291#Comment_122030291

I do agree with coach's, maybe a pathway for explayers into coaching via the academies.

I think we do have to agree Ireland at the moment is probably at the most successful period ever, but we can't stay still. We need to continue to improve.

The question then is what do you do with the current players if they get more from the academy, you suddenly run into a backlog, so do the IRFU need another province. England and France have multiple clubs/squad to spread players around, Ireland is limited to 4.

Do we align with a Pro D2 club to allow players to move over to get time? or align with clubs in AUs?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030508#Comment_122030508

I dont agree with the premise of Thornleys article that the system is purposely loaded to favour Leinster. Not at all. That type of shite only breeeds resentment.

I think that's unfair on Thornley tbh.

His point wasn't that things were loaded to favour Leinster on purpose. But that they do favour Leinster.

That doesn't mean it's by design. But the absolutely do.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030318#Comment_122030318

Not sure if you are taking a pot shot or not. Because I think most of here would know that.

IRFU deficit of just under €1 million in their annual accounts up to 31st July 2023

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/11/24/grand-slam-success-brings-a-more-positive-impact-to-irfu-accounts/

“Our deficit for 2023/24 is likely to be well in excess of this €10 million,” admitted Potts. “However, we do expect a return to close to break even in 2024/25, the following year, and at no stage in the next 10 years are we forecasting that the IRFU will go into debt." - Kevin Potts

Is that €10m a typo? Is it not €1m deficit?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/11/25/irfu-chief-kevin-potts-insists-irish-rugby-in-good-financial-state-after-10m-world-cup-costs/

There seems to be a traine of thought that the IRFU have this vast amount of money that they are funneling into Leinster in order to keep the other provinces down. That is madness. The IRFU need all the Provinces to contribute. It's just not happening.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030549#Comment_122030549

You're right I'm prob been a bit harsh.

But I think with the headline (editor) and lines like this it will stoke opinion against Leinste

"Yet there’s also no doubt that the union’s system both rewards and favours Leinster to an increasing degree."

"Leinster will thus not have to pay one cent toward the salaries of 10 frontline international players, whereas the other provinces will have a combined three who fall into this category, and will therefore have to at least partly fund the contracts of nine more players on their rosters"

"But this is a classic case of the rich getting richer and the irritation for the other provinces is that the socio-economic and geographical advantages that Leinster enjoy are, as they see it, compounded by the IRFU’s contractual system."

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030508#Comment_122030508

Why should leinster pay nothing towards their players? You arent penalising Leinster for asking them to pay towards their players. Andrew porter will play more for Leinster in a season than he will ply for Ireland in general. Asking them to contribute to his wages seems reasonable to me.

Again I'd probably scrap the central contracts system. It made sense when there was club games during international windows but that no longer applies. Replace it with a payment towards the provinces when their players are selected for Ireland.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030597#Comment_122030597

Because they wont be able to keep them all.

If the model is tweaked too much Leinster could lose a Porter, or a Sheehan, or both. Or even more. That has a negative impact on Irish rugby.

They go to France. There is no doubt in mind that the current Irish team is succeeding with a small pool of players because they are at home and managed well.

It's been said before and I know it pisses people off, the Leinster centric Irish team is actually helping the national team at present.

It wants more from the other provinces. It needs more from the other provinces.

fitzgea1

"It's been said before and I know it pisses people off, the Leinster centric Irish team is actually helping the national team at present."

Also, if my main remit was to make sure Ireland win as many matches as possible, I'd actually want the majority of players coming from 1 province. It helps with cohesion and systems.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030615#Comment_122030615

Depends on the tweaks.

Lets say Porter is on a Leinster contract. Leinster get a payment for every game he plays for Ireland and that covers a lot of his wage. Porter also gets a match payment to top up his Leinster salary.

Club players already get a match fee but the club doesnt. In the system above then Connacht would get the payment for Hansen in the year he plays for Ireland instead of having to wait a few years for a central contract to be offered. The same for Munster and Crowley, Or the game McCloskey plays.

The risk is if Leinster are forced to pay a big contract to keep Porter, but then his form falls off a cliff and he is no longer selected for Ireland. Leinster are then stuck with a high paid player.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030595#Comment_122030595

Not at all taking a pot-shot.

My point is that I think it's too simplistic to say "the IRFU's team is Ireland". They also have a remit and responsibility to the Provinces (and indeed more broadly).

The Ireland team is obviously the big income generator, and will always have primacy. But if there is an increasing perception that there's a significant imbalance in the system, it may begin to disenfranchise provincial supporters. That can't be good in the long run.

Yes, you're correct to say that Munster had a majority of the central contracts in the 2000's because they had the better players. But the % distribution of those central contracts was nothing like it is now.

leakyboots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030647#Comment_122030647

#TeamofThem

pickarooney

#TeamOfThemuns

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030494#Comment_122030494

Munster supporters club do contribute to academy/development funding or at least did through giant draw they held monthly..

phog

A fan base contributing to a province's operational cost is not the solution. It's nothing more than a gesture.

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031237#Comment_122031237

But why, isn't that what supporters are? I'm not saying it's the solution but the other provinces need to start thinking outside the box if they want to catch up to Leinster

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030508#Comment_122030508

Just saw this post.

£50k is more than I was thinking, but I don't have enough knowledge to settle on an ideal figure (none of us do).

Anyway, it's not penalising Leinster. It's redrawing how central contracts work.

Each Leinster CC player would still be getting the great majority of his contract paid for by the IRFU. And the other provinces would each be paying for the first £50k of their own CC players. Not as much money, but fair in principle.

If you're happy that the much greater number of CCs are held by Leinster, and that disparity doesn't bother you, why would the disparity that they're paying back more though my suggested system bother you? They're still getting a massive swathe off their wage bill.

And what you don't then have is people arguing about who does or doesn't deserve a CC, and ridiculous notions about quotas of CCs across the province. And you're still getting incentivised to produce players good enough for a CC, because you're still getting most of their wages paid for.

And the other three academies improve, bolstering the quality of the players available to Ireland.

Paul Smeenus

I've wondered for a while now if that's why we stutter at RWCs. We've prioritised cohesion, which I completely understand and appreciate,and while that benefits us massively in the 6 Nations and autumn internationals, it's much less of a boost with the longer lead-in for all teams at the RWC. Other teams have time to improve their own cohesion and it's not the advantage it is in other competitions.

Sorry -that was in relation to Fitzgea1's post.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030058#Comment_122030058

Didn't ye just win the league? While Leinster won nothing.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031977#Comment_122031977

Yes we did

fitzgea1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031559#Comment_122031559

Ya I've thought that myself, it's probably why we seem to peak too early. But to be fair, any of us in Andy Farrell's position would do the same thing. If 2 players of similar quality are going for the same spot and one them plays club rugby with half the team, then it makes the decision of who to pick a lot easier.

I think the coaching set ups at the other provinces need to be looked at too. Munster seem to have a different game plan depending on what players are available. It's hard to see what the long term plan is there. That can't help with young players development.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032165#Comment_122032165

Agreed. But we also talk bout different provinces having their own identity etc... it's difficult.

And a lot of it is chance. Matt O'Connor was very highly regarded, and as I recall, the players loved him. If JvG hadn't left them in the lurch, Munster wouldn't have tasted success under Rowntree. And we thought McFarland Wlwas turning us around - in reality it was Payne and Peel. We (Ulster) just need a bit of luck again... (He said, in hope.)

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030516#Comment_122030516

There was a small murmur before of a fifth team....

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032153#Comment_122032153

Yayyy! C'mon the Mun!

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032165#Comment_122032165

Don't disagree with any of that. But I think it might be time to start putting more money into -and pressure on - the other academies. I'm distressed by a match day 23 with no Ulster players in it.