Yes - we can see that a decent minority of Ulster and Munster fans have stopped supporting Ireland because not "enough" of their players are being picked, and I don't expect that to change any time soon.
I think the way the Barrett signing is being spun, despite being utterly irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things, is adding to the dissatisfaction and if Leinster go on to win the European Cup and make up the bulk of the squad for South Africa, it's just going to get worse. I think the central contracts thing is only a small piece of a much wider issue.
So if we end up with a fairer re-distribution of CCs between the provinces, would the end result be that some of Leinster's fringe players would be forced to go abroad? If so, I think that would be a good thing for Ireland. Imagine if the likes of Frawley, Byrne, Larmour were playing regularly for Eng/French teams for the past few years. They'd probably be much better players now and would give Ireland more options.
I don't think it's that simple; very consistently 3, and sometimes all 4 of our teams don't start in that competition. So it's not going to be something they directly target.
"Yet again this season Ireland had 2 teams in that competition after dropping down"
I think the "yet again" is overstating this, no? Is it not the norm that we typically only have 1, and only occasionally 2? It's a long time since either Leinster or Munster have been in the Challenge Cup, iirc.
A few things here -
a) He's not even remotely close in all likelihood to the most expensive ever imports here, especially given the duration of his contract and the fact it's on record he turned down bigger offers in Japan.
b) He's clearly not coming as a squad player.
For all the anguished talk this week and classifying Leinster as some sort of unstoppable force, the reality is that Leinster haven't won a trophy in the past 2 years.
I've said it before, but I'm not one of those fans who think the good times last forever. Eventually, things change. There is a window when you have a squad good enough to win European Cups, and Leinster have arguably already left 2 or 3 behind them.
This is the management team going out there this season and gambling in certain areas (i.e. Snyman signing) to improve Leinster's chances of delivering European Cups while the bulk of the squad is still in that window.
Leinster have an entitlement, like all the clubs, to go and sign a couple of NIQs. When they're doing that - it makes sense to go and get the absolute best player you can afford. It's particularly necessary in a club like Leinster where this a real fear that the culture could become way too insular.
Does anyone know if all NIQ's are solely funded by the province?
And equally, fans of others clubs are entitled to ask questions when they see an imbalance of central contracts on a scale we've never seen before.
We're clearly not going to agree, FTD, so I suggest we leave it at that.
(Fwiw, I still am interested if you have data on CC players over the years).
No, some NIQs have been funded by private funding
Can we please stop discussing the Jordie Barrett transfer in here. It is a smart economic and strategic investment that Leinster have made. It is not unprecedented, Leinster have signed All Black Brad Thorn before on a 6 month contract. There should be no further discussion.
Mod: No back-seat modding.
ok like Snyman and DdA at Munster. Sorry I should have asked - has the IRFU ever partially funded a NIQ? Like Lealiifano
https://www.irishrugby.ie/2017/08/21/christian-lealiifano-signs-for-ulster/#:~:text=Australian%20international%20out%2Dhalf%20Christian,on%20a%20five%2Dmonth%20deal.
It is embarrassing that even some mods on this site are getting so salty at Leinster’s success and jealous of competent executive management
Unsure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had. (Particularly if it's an emergency / injury cover signing).
I'm sure there could be insurance riders in the event of injury, pretty common in the NFL for example. I think it could be a positive for players. 13 CCs vs 30-40 spots on the wider Irish squad. Could build in multipliers for repeated selections to reward continued performance
Why would Irish player in England/France be better for Ireland?
They would not be available for the camps that Ireland hold outside of the windows so they wouldn't be able to join. When Sexton moved he was such a big name he got to agree additional terms in his contract but the list of players you have wouldn't have that power
You would be making Ireland weaker. Having the players in the Irish system, managing them and working with the provinces is one of the huge success stories Ireland has, both England and France are trying to implement similar.
You are not just making Ireland weaker, you are striping squad players from Leinster which means they would be weaker, thus meaning they would have to push their internationals into more game. More injuries etc, knock on making Ireland weaker if players are out injured
There was also the player who just played in and won a world cup final but he was ignored. Almost like cohesion is as big a factor as talent
Brad thorn made a lot of sense at the time because he was an excellent really experienced player who (and this is the key bit) wasnt going to knock current irish international out of provincial matchday 23s
Sorry, you're arguing that Jean Kleyn should have had a central contract?
I'm sorry but this is mental. Absolutely mental
The messenge i was replying to said to just produce players that can be of significant importance to the irish team. A player that the best coach in the world trusts to come on for eben etsebeth in a world cup final and was as stated by him key to thr 7-1 split sounds exactly like that type of player to me but he coulnt even make squads. Is it possible that this is proof there are other factors at play than talent (for example the aforementioned priority of cohesion)
Which is not to say theres somr great consipiracy its just a selection philosophy of the current coach and a successful one but it refutes the idea of talent alone being a factor
Where do you direct those questions though?
Since 2010 which is when Munsters decline began after Rabo/HC wins, in relation to the national team, they have produced TWO forwards of note (POM and Donnacha Ryan) and a few who were bit part players at most (Kilcoyne, Ryan, Scannell) in the that time
Where does the question about that get directed when the solution by Munster was generally found in South Africa
But none of that helps when it comes to World Cup because our players don't seem to be able to adapt and recover quickly enough. I'd say our players are a bit over-protected. Also the majority of the first 15 would still be in Ireland, it's the fringe players who would leave. It might mean we don't so as well in some 6 Nations or Autumn matches but for me the target now has to be winning the next world cup.
And it's not stripping players from Leinster, it's giving players an alternative path. Where would Tadgh Beirne be now if he hadn't left Leinster, would he have developed into the player he is today.
Munster had development issues i dont think anyone would argue there
I'd do it this way.
First off the 6 nations keep rugby alive in Ireland, winning that will bring more money in. Not less. A World Cup will not bring in the money the 6 nations does.
You named players who are in and around the Ireland team, them leaving means you are making Ireland weaker.
Ireland also targets to win the WC, they have said that for the last 2 World Cups, that doesn;t mean you bankrupt the IRFU trying to achieve it
Players already have an alternative path, they are entitled to leave if they want. Players wanting to stay in Ireland should not br frowned upon or pushed out to other countries in the vague hope they might get better while making Ireland and the provinces weaker
Beirne is one player, plenty of others have left Ireland for England. How many have returned and turned in a Beirne?
The message you were replying to was talking exclusively about central contracts, but I'm glad we've cleared that up.
The cohesion thing is absolute bollocks. Jean Kleyn didn't miss out on Ireland selection because Farrell wanted more "cohesion", he missed out either because a) Farrell doesn't/didn't rate him or b) Kleyn wanted to go back to the Boks or c) both of the above. Absolutely nothing to do with cohesion.
I think if Kleyn was much better than the alternatives, he would have been in more Ireland squads and teams. I don't think he wasn't selected because of cohesion, he just didn't produce the goods when he had the chance. And I say that as a Munster supporter.
Reading this after just waking up, I conclude that Ulster and Munster are absolute failures. There's no other way to look at it.
The combined population of both provinces would be similar to Leinster and yet look at the CC contracts. Who's to blame? Both provinces have contributed sweet F.A.
Thats fair farrells not infallible mistakes happen. Id be slow enough to dismiss cohesion being a fact though ots something weve always benefited greatly off of eg. Bod/darcy as centers poc/doc as srs
To keep you 😊
So some fringe players leaving Ireland will bankrupt the IRFU? It's a bit dramatic no?
We can still select players who leave Ireland, we just need to allow it. They'll be available for Ireland games. Who knows, they might even become better players and offer something different to the team.
So rassie just picked him as soon as possible for the craic and put him into a world cup final for maby the best second row on the planet as some sort of prank?
Im not sure that adds up. Goin off topic with it now i didnt think this could be disagreed with this much
Or they could say that Barrett is arriving as Ngati is leaving!
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