Schools closed until February? (part 3)

GK125

I’m just wondering will my plc course still go ahead or will my classes be moved online for the 6 weeks?

wirelessdude01

GK125 wrote: »

I’m just wondering will my plc course still go ahead or will my classes be moved online for the 6 weeks?

The adult/further education sector isn't really publicly considered at all. I'm sure it's in the details somewhere. I'd imagine online but best to check.

smck321

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Here ya go.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

Have you the non pay wall version?

wirelessdude01

smck321 wrote: »

Have you the non pay wall version?

I haven't paid and I can see it fine.

Thats me

smck321 wrote: »

Have you the non pay wall version?

Opened for me with no paywall:


Older children spread coronavirus just as much as adults, study finds

Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, findings suggest

In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others. A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than age 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. However those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.
The findings suggest that as schools reopen, communities will see clusters of infection take root that include children of all ages, several experts cautioned. “I fear that there has been this sense that kids just won’t get infected or don’t get infected in the same way as adults and that, therefore, they’re almost like a bubbled population,” said Michael Osterholm, an infectious diseases expert at the University of Minnesota. “There will be transmission,” Dr Osterholm said. “What we have to do is accept that now and include that in our plans.”


South Korean researchers identified 5,706 people who were the first to report Covid-19 symptoms in their households between January 20th and March 27th, when schools were closed, and then traced the 59,073 contacts of these “index cases.” They tested all of the household contacts of each patient, regardless of symptoms, but only tested symptomatic contacts outside the household.
The first person in a household to develop symptoms is not necessarily the first to have been infected, and the researchers acknowledged this limitation. Children are also less likely than adults to show symptoms, so the study may have underestimated the number of children who set off the chain of transmission within their households.
Children under age 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air, and therefore less virus-laden air, or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.


The study is more worrisome for children in second-level schools. This group was even more likely to infect others than adults were, the study found. But some experts said that finding may be a fluke or may stem from the children’s behaviours. – New York Times

Thats me

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I haven't paid and I can see it fine.

They probably letting us to see first few articles for free and than blocking the rest.

ILoveYourVibes

There is no way level 5 is going to bring numbers down with schools open ...you know it ..i know it.

Martin is a moron. Plus with kids in school parents will continue to go into work when really they could work from home.

smck321

Thats me wrote: »

Opened for me with no paywall:


Older children spread coronavirus just as much as adults, study finds

Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, findings suggest

In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others. A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than age 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. However those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.
The findings suggest that as schools reopen, communities will see clusters of infection take root that include children of all ages, several experts cautioned. “I fear that there has been this sense that kids just won’t get infected or don’t get infected in the same way as adults and that, therefore, they’re almost like a bubbled population,” said Michael Osterholm, an infectious diseases expert at the University of Minnesota. “There will be transmission,” Dr Osterholm said. “What we have to do is accept that now and include that in our plans.”


South Korean researchers identified 5,706 people who were the first to report Covid-19 symptoms in their households between January 20th and March 27th, when schools were closed, and then traced the 59,073 contacts of these “index cases.” They tested all of the household contacts of each patient, regardless of symptoms, but only tested symptomatic contacts outside the household.
The first person in a household to develop symptoms is not necessarily the first to have been infected, and the researchers acknowledged this limitation. Children are also less likely than adults to show symptoms, so the study may have underestimated the number of children who set off the chain of transmission within their households.
Children under age 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air, and therefore less virus-laden air, or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.


The study is more worrisome for children in second-level schools. This group was even more likely to infect others than adults were, the study found. But some experts said that finding may be a fluke or may stem from the children’s behaviours. – New York Times

Thanks I guess the question now is what do we value in society? Education at the expense of other things or health over everything else. It might be my own cynicism but the same people complaining about schools being open now cannot be allowed to be the ones in a few years complaining about the effects of this.

We can't really afford here to allow people to become dissociated from the consequences of the views they hold and actions they take.

Thats me

smck321 wrote: »

Thanks I guess the question now is what do we value in society? Education at the expense of other things or health over everything else.

IMO, this is question not about value, but more about mitigating loss. What we will lose if schools will be closed for 1.5 months and what we will lose if numbers of active covid cases will get above capacity of health services.



In any case, Level 5 restrictions are useless while schools are still open, so neither education nor health win.

smck321

Thats me wrote: »

IMO, this is question not about value, but more about mitigating loss. What we will lose if schools will be closed for 1.5 months and what we will lose if numbers of active covid cases will get above capacity of health services.

In any case, Level 5 restrictions are useless while schools are still open, so neither education nor health win.

It won't be 1.5 months unless you want to repeat the endless lockdown, end lockdown cycle for the next 2 years or however long it'll be.

What will be lost is social mobility. The rich won't lose much from schools being closed but the poor certainly will. The pandemic already affects the poor much more than the rich, closing schools will just make it worse.

SusanC10

How is everyone doing today ?

We are facing decision-time in our house. We had agreed that we would keep the Kids home from school if it went to Level 5.

For now, we are going to send them in for the last 4 days before Midterm and then decide over the Break.

Personally, I feel that there are too many exemptions incl Schools to the Level 5 restrictions and am worried that it won't work.

combat14

why are play dates in houses cancelled in houses if kids cant transmit covid it is all bull****e - schools should be closed they are not safe

morebabies

SusanC10 wrote: »

How is everyone doing today ?

We are facing decision-time in our house. We had agreed that we would keep the Kids home from school if it went to Level 5.

For now, we are going to send them in for the last 4 days before Midterm and then decide over the Break.

Personally, I feel that there are too many exemptions incl Schools to the Level 5 restrictions and am worried that it won't work.

I'd agree, I don't think it'll work at all, maybe a slowdown in growth, but nothing significant. Only certain retail outlets will be closed and I think the household bubble idea is open to abuse, not always in a deliberate way. For example, I know grandparents will want to see children / grandchildren and forming a bubble with a house where kids are mixing with huge numbers... Not a great idea, but the government couldn't say that might pose a problem as it would undermine their position on schools.

dixiefly

Stephen Donnelly on Prime Time made a statement on Prime Time about the positivity rate in school being something like 1.7% and approx 7% in the wider community.

Are they comparable statistics? Surely the 7% in the community is a percentage of people that are designated for testing as they already have symptoms or are close contacts of positive cases which is totally different from a random sample of students and teachers.

Are these comparisons officially reported anywhere?

dixiefly

dixiefly wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly on Prime Time made a statement on Prime Time about the positivity rate in school being something like 1.7% and approx 7% in the wider community.

Are they comparable statistics? Surely the 7% in the community is a percentage of people that are designated for testing as they already have symptoms or are close contacts of positive cases which is totally different from a random sample of students and teachers.

Are these comparisons officially reported anywhere?

School samples are not random. They are those identified as part on contact tracing in schools. And given we are told contact tracing in schools is too restricted, only identifying those closest to the index case, it should be absolute worst case

average_runner

combat14 wrote: »

why are play dates in houses cancelled in houses if kids cant transmit covid it is all bull****e - schools should be closed they are not safe

They are cancelled because kids are picking it up from adults and after play dates, people dont clean down like they do at school.

Kids are getting it from their parents and bringing it to the school, so stopping it starts at home.

We had three cases between our two schools of over 600 kids, so no risk there

irishblessing

average_runner wrote: »

They are cancelled because kids are picking it up from adults and after play dates, people dont clean down like they do at school.

Kids are getting it from their parents and bringing it to the school, so stopping it starts at home.

We had three cases between our two schools of over 600 kids, so no risk there

That you know of. (Are you being told of all the cases?) You also don't know of any more because children tend to be asymptomatic, can spread the virus at least as well as adults do according to large studies and also Dr. Mike Ryan of WHO, and aren't being 'mass tested' as was claimed by government yesterday. So of course there would be more cases. Saying there is 'no risk' is just ridiculous. Doctors and scientists have acknowledged this in many of the research papers I've read- that it's difficult to establish where transmission first occurred because it was assumed it came first from the parents or home or community as initially there were many assumptions about children and this virus. "Overlooked" is a word I often saw in this context.

Edited here to add: the only people I know (here in Ireland) personally who have been sick with the virus is my cousin and his wife. They were both very sick for a few weeks back in March, tested positive. Their two young kids were never tested, so they are in no data base. However about a week before they were sick, myself and my two kids bumped into them outside the shops and their oldest child had "a cold" and his wife told me she had a fever that's gone... As I said the kids were never tested but one of them was sick before the parents and it was assumed at that time children didn't catch or spread it so they were "overlooked."

Personally I am very disappointed there was not an extended midterm break, and an announcement to implement a hybrid remote learning plan. Some learn from home full time, some in school full time (all depending on need) and the rest on a rotating schedule so as to reduce class size numbers.

I feel like this has been pointed out enough. Other countries are doing it. The fact that it isn't even being TALKED about by government to me shows they're just to g-d lazy or inept to consider it and put in the work it would take to support this model for only what, less than a million households if you remove 3rd level who are already doing this here? Joke. :mad:

Mrsmum

combat14 wrote: »

why are play dates in houses cancelled in houses if kids cant transmit covid it is all bull****e - schools should be closed they are not safe

Surely this doesn't have to be still explained. Wherever two people meet, there is a risk of transmission. Now if they were brutal, the Government would say you cannot meet anyone outside of your own household but they know that would be literally unbearable for the public nevermind that often people need help from other households so they balance risk against needs. Playdates are completely unnecessary so no value to taking the risk. Schools are essential so huge value against risk. When you say schools should be closed, do you mean fully ? Have you given any consideration to the harm that will cause. I never thought I would be a Government groupie but in fairness they have to consider this from every angle.

average_runner

irishblessing wrote: »

That you know of. (Are you being told of all the cases?) You also don't know of any more because children tend to be asymptomatic, can spread the virus at least as well as adults do according to large studies and also Dr. Mike Ryan of WHO, and aren't being 'mass tested' as was claimed by government yesterday. So of course there would be more cases. Saying there is 'no risk' is just ridiculous. Doctors and scientists have acknowledged this in many of the research papers I've read- that it's difficult to establish where transmission first occurred because it was assumed it came first from the parents or home or community as initially there were many assumptions about children and this virus. "Overlooked" is a word I often saw in this context.

Personally I am very disappointed there was not an extended midterm break, and an announcement to implement a hybrid remote learning plan. Some learn from home full time, some in school full time (all depending on need) and the rest on a rotating schedule so as to reduce class size numbers.

I feel like this has been pointed out enough. Other countries are doing it. The fact that it isn't even being TALKED about by government to me shows they're just to g-d lazy or inept to consider it and put in the work it would take to support this model for only what, less than a million households if you remove 3rd level who are already doing this here? Joke. :mad:

So kids operations in hospitals are on going and they all have to get a covid test before admitted. Very little operations are getting cancelled right now, so this shows the high level of asymptomatic is not true.
I know this because we are waiting on an operation for one of ours, due in two weeks.


"Personally I am very disappointed there was not an extended midterm break, and an announcement to implement a hybrid remote learning plan. Some learn from home full time, some in school full time (all depending on need) and the rest on a rotating schedule so as to reduce class size numbers."


And how do you expect working parents to do that, do you want more to quit their jobs, enough do it, then they will have to reduce teachers pay!! Then there be more complaining.


Remote learning is something teachers can plan when kids are quietly working during the day, I know that is what our kids school is doing.

They have a plan in place, every month the work for that month is planned and in place at home if needs be, otherwise its in school.
Some thinking outside the box will highlight the best schools and best teachers.

irishblessing

average_runner wrote: »

So kids operations in hospitals are on going and they all have to get a covid test before admitted. Very little operations are getting cancelled right now, so this shows the high level of asymptomatic is not true.
I know this because we are waiting on an operation for one of ours, due in two weeks.


"Personally I am very disappointed there was not an extended midterm break, and an announcement to implement a hybrid remote learning plan. Some learn from home full time, some in school full time (all depending on need) and the rest on a rotating schedule so as to reduce class size numbers."


And how do you expect working parents to do that, do you want more to quit their jobs, enough do it, then they will have to reduce teachers pay!! Then there be more complaining.


Remote learning is something teachers can plan when kids are quietly working during the day, I know that is what our kids school is doing.

They have a plan in place, every month the work for that month is planned and in place at home if needs be, otherwise its in school.
Some thinking outside the box will highlight the best schools and best teachers.

Correlation does not equal causation. Children due to have surgery would be quarantined prior and every precaution taken so the operation goes ahead and their immune systems are not compromised. Yes? It shows the high precautions parents take and that's a very small sector of society, hardly representative of the wider population. What an odd example to try illustrate a point.

Wtf do you mean, "and how do you expect working parents to do that." Did you not see the word HYBRID and the explanation of some full in/full out/rotating? Also employers can be directed by government to be flexible with their own employees work schedules. This it what my friends and relatives in the states do, and they are fully remote right now. They told me of a couple families who are "bubbles together" and they share the learning duties around the parents work schedules between the 4 adults.
And also, not every single job can be saved, just like a covid zero plan isn't a reality. Every family is different so solutions will all look different.

Why in the world would teachers pay be reduced. They still have to teach daily. No one's salary was reduced because the government told them to work from home where possible. What on earth are you even on about.

khalessi

average_runner wrote: »

And how do you expect working parents to do that, do you want more to quit their jobs, enough do it, then they will have to reduce teachers pay!!

I think the same way teachers who are parents did when they were wfh and teaching 25 kids online while making sure their own children were educated.

average_runner

irishblessing wrote: »

Correlation does not equal causation. Children due to have surgery would be quarantined prior and every precaution taken so the operation goes ahead and their immune systems are not compromised. Yes? It shows the high precautions parents take and that's a very small sector of society, hardly representative of the wider population. What an odd example to try illustrate a point.

Wtf do you mean, "and how do you expect working parents to do that." Did you not see the word HYBRID and the explanation of some full in/full out/rotating? Also employers can be directed by government to be flexible with their own employees work schedules. This it what my friends and relatives in the states do, and they are fully remote right now. They told me of a couple families who are "bubbles together" and they share the learning duties around the parents work schedules between the 4 adults.
And also, not every single job can be saved, just like a covid zero plan isn't a reality. Every family is different so solutions will all look different.

Why in the world would teachers pay be reduced. They still have to teach daily. No one's salary was reduced because the government told them to work from home where possible. What on earth are you even on about.

Kids are not quarantine before the operation as they are in school before it.
Ours will get his covid test Thursday week and have the op on Thursday the following week!!! He is in school right now

If tax falls there be no money in the economy to cover the bills, hence paycuts will happen in the PS again


Employers won't care what the government says when most mutlinationals aren't Irish

HerrKuehn

khalessi wrote: »

I think the same way teachers who are parents did when they were wfh and teaching 25 kids online while making sure their own children were educated.

The parent's job might involve more than sending an email on Monday though.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

I think the same way teachers who are parents did when they were wfh and teaching 25 kids online while making sure their own children were educated.

And because every parent naturally and rightly cares the most about their own kids that means those 25 kids will be disadvantaged.

Home schooling is a solution to a problem we don't have at the moment. Infections in most schools are not high enough to warrant home schooling and I don't think it's fair to damage kids future because unions are looking to score some points. I watched Claire Byrne yesterday and it was quite obvious Sam McConkey had very little time for the school closures. I think those who are truly in risky environments probably find teacher unions complaining frustrating.

Thats me

smck321 wrote: »

It won't be 1.5 months unless you want to repeat the endless lockdown, end lockdown cycle for the next 2 years or however long it'll be.

In the case of complete lockdown we could hope to stop pandemy, with schools remaining open - of course there is no chance and lockdown will re-iterate extending downtime for businesses.

smck321 wrote: »

What will be lost is social mobility. The rich won't lose much from schools being closed but the poor certainly will. The pandemic already affects the poor much more than the rich, closing schools will just make it worse.

What in particular the poor irish people will lose if schools would be closed for 1.5 month? :eek:

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

And because every parent naturally and rightly cares the most about their own kids that means those 25 kids will be disadvantaged.

Home schooling is a solution to a problem we don't have at the moment. Infections in lost schools are not high enough to warrant home schooling and I don't think it's fair to damage kids future because unions are looking to score some points. I watched Claire Byrne yesterday and it was quite obvious Sam McConkey had very little time for the school closures. I think those who are truly in risky environments probably find teacher unions complaining frustrating.

Jesus, it's getting extremely tiresome and irritating to keep saying things over and over.
Take off your privileged glasses for a moment, just a moment, and realise there are ALOT of high risk individuals out there. Students and families that they live with and they currently have no other option. There is one of these such students right here on this very thread and who has spoken about the impact on their mental health and you're still going to dismiss them so easily? Wow.

Secondly, classes and schools closing and quarantines are happening EVERYWHERE, all over the country. It will continue to happen, this is a problem we have CURRENTLY so you're wrong there. And as things go one it will only get worse and there is a lack of subs at the moment too. Probably why the testing is such a farce- the government know there aren't enough subs to step in during quarantines to keep the classes going. Our teachers are being sacrificed and students and their families as well because the gov't and DES were too g-d lazy and inept to get off their backsides the last 7 months and come up with better plans and safety measures as other countries have done.

If kids are still receiving an education mixed with in-person learning then they aren't going to be damaged in the long term. Teacher unions... should have had more back bone much earlier but better late than never. I wouldn't be surprised to see a strike. It isn't about scoring points, but you're obviously trying to with a disingenuous comment like that. This is a needlessly dangerous situation with solutions they don't even care to implement.

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

What in particular the poor irish people will lose if schools would be closed for 1.5 month? :eek:

The kids who are at risk of leaving school are less likely to re-engage when the schools come back. They are also a lot less likely to do home schooling. There were significant differences in homeschooling levels among different income/education brackets.

So yes there will be definitely losers among kids.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

Jesus, it's getting extremely tiresome and irritating to keep saying things over and over.
Take off your privileged glasses for a moment, just a moment, and realise there are ALOT of high risk individuals out there. Students and families that they live with and they currently have no other option. There is one of these such students right here on this very thread and who has spoken about the impact on their mental health and you're still going to dismiss them so easily? Wow.

Secondly, classes and schools and quarantines are happening EVERYWHERE, all over the country. It will continue to happen, this is a problem we have CURRENTLY so you're wrong there. And as things go one it will only get worse and there is a lack of subs at the moment too. Probably why the testing is such a farce- the government know there aren't enough subs to step in during quarantines to keep the classes going. Our teachers are being sacrificed and students and their families as well because the gov't and DES were too g-d lazy and inept to get off their backsides the last 7 months and come up with better plans and safety measures as other countries have done.

If kids are still receiving an education mixed with in-person learning then they aren't going to be damaged in the long term. Teacher unions... should have had more back bone much earlier but better late than never. I wouldn't be surprised to see a strike. It isn't about scoring points, but you're obviously trying to with a disingenuous comment like that. This is a needlessly dangerous situation with solutions they don't even care to implement.

That's a strange post. You didn't mention how your relatives in america are homeschooling.

If you don't believe me that's what Unesco have to say:
https://en.unesco.org/covid19/educationresponse/consequences

So read the list and tell me is that the price children should pay?

irishblessing

Separately, I want to voice my irritation about parents at school. Last night was a blow to us all and what did I see this morning? Two mothers talking into each other's faces maskless and at times touching each other. School reopening policy states all parents need to wear masks on school grounds. Totally ignored. This has been going on since Sept. Another small group of 3 mothers chatting, one had a mask, rain starts lashing down so they all jump in the nearest car. Saw this as I was in queue to drive away. Brainless fools.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

That's a strange post. You didn't mention how your relatives in america are homeschooling.

If you don't believe me that's what Unesco have to say:
https://en.unesco.org/covid19/educationresponse/consequences

So read the list and tell is that the price children should pay.

what?! I've mentioned it here frequently. Read back if you like, it's there.

Classes and schools are closing ANYWAY. What do you not understand. Hybrid remote learning plans and resource support will actually reduce a lot of those listed problems.

And what of the mental (and physical) health to those who are risking themselves and their families to get a one size fits all plan in a global pandemic?