Schools closed until February? (part 3)

vid36

1491 Covid19 positive cases in Northern schools since August 31.

frank8211

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah, and if a member of that family tests positive then it goes down as an in the home case and I'd never tried back to the school.

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, in many cases, if the school is doing its job properly, if all the protocols have been followed correctly, there shouldn't be any close contacts, certainly there should be no teacher-to-teacher transmission. If that is a problem in a school, the school isn't following the guidelines.

But how come its inadvisable for me to have even one person from one house come to visit and its fine to have 30 people from 30 houses in a classroom? Id be happy to have some human company and follow any protocols you want

meeeeh

JimmyVik wrote: »

Just answer the question. How many have nphet detected? Doesnt have to be the exact number. Just has top be the number that nphet reckon it is.
Do you think they arent recording those numbers?


Simple question. Should be easy to get the answer right?
But you cant. Its been hidden, so you cant get it.
Yet you think thats ok and make excuses for it.
There are no excuses for hiding that data. None.



So why do you think the data is being hidden?
Why all the resistance to informing the citizens of this country of the numbers?
Such an easy thing to do to release the dataset.
Fcuk if I got 5 minutes in the database I could get 50 different useful reports. Give me another hour and I could make it so you could get any stat you wanted out by clicking a few buttons.

I very much doubt that since you didn't know what something as basic as positivity rate means.

I don't get it, why would you want individual data on children? On average it is clear from the numbers that each child infects far less than one other person in school. In primary schools the average rate is 0.48 and in secondary school is 0.42. However if you are asking me how many children were infected by Jimmy Mack then yeah you can't find that.

HerrKuehn

frank8211 wrote: »

But how come its inadvisable for me to have even one person from one house come to visit and its fine to have 30 people from 30 houses in a classroom? Id be happy to have some human company and follow any protocols you want

Jesus, at this point I am wondering if posters are being disingenuous or if they actually really don't understand. It is about reducing contacts as much as possible and keeping the most important ones. The rules don't mean that everything is perfectly safe if you follow them. For example, it isn't the case that 2m is totally safe, whereas 1.9m puts you in mortal danger. Or previously having 6 guests to your house is completely safe, whereas inviting an extra person makes it unsafe!

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Given your 1 in 30 answer above for the positivity rate, it is clear you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. I'm beginning to think you are trolling

That made me laugh thanks

HerrKuehn

khalessi wrote: »

That made me laugh thanks

Well you were completely caught out there. They test 1 child and they are positive and the positivity rate is 1 in 30 FFS.

meeeeh

frank8211 wrote: »

But how come its inadvisable for me to have even one person from one house come to visit and its fine to have 30 people from 30 houses in a classroom? Id be happy to have some human company and follow any protocols you want

You might but many don't follow the protocols. As it happens you will be probably allowed what you are looking for because that's one of the changes that they are discussing at the moment. A single person could be part of a bubble they are allowed to see but they couldn't be members of multiple bubbles. That's actually one of the rules we deliberately broke in first lock down. I'm not going into detail but benefit of that for the person was much greater than the risk it brought.

Icyseanfitz

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54598136

So wales are only bringing back 2 years of secondary after midterm, must just be a different virus.

JimmyVik

meeeeh wrote: »

I very much doubt that since you didn't know what something as basic as positivity rate means.

I don't get it, why would you want individual data on children? On average it is clear from the numbers that each child infects far less than one other person in school. In primary schools the average rate is 0.48 and in secondary school is 0.42. However if you are asking me how many children were infected by Jimmy Mack then yeah you can't find that.

Thats not an answer to the simple question I asked you.



Its not your fault you cant answer it. They havent supplied you with very simple data to allow you to answer that very simple question.



But instead of just acknowledging that there are gaping gaps in the data so, much you cant answer the question and resort to insults and answer a totally different question instead.
Tells me everything i need to know.

Seriously, does the fact you cant locate a simple figure like that in all of their reports not bother you?

FeirmeoirtTed

blanch152 wrote: »

Wow, just wow, look at the entitlement culture from the INTO - see piece in bold.

They want more than people working in meat factories get, more than people working in hospitals get, more than people working in care homes, direct provision centres, prisons get etc. and all of those people are in much more dangerous situations than teachers.

People in the high-risk category are out there in the health service putting their lives at risk every day to save teachers and their families and everyone else, yet the teachers want special measures for themselves.

teachers and their families and everyone else, yet the teachers want special measures for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Will you ever give over with your ranting and raving about teachers, I'm sick to the teeth of listening to the same rubbish from people on here, entitlement my absolute arse. If covid gets into a school its the schools and teachers fault for not following the guidelines??? Good one

meeeeh

JimmyVik wrote: »

Thats not an answer to the simple question I asked you.



Its not your fault you cant answer it. They havent supplied you with very simple data to allow you to answer that very simple question.



But instead of just acknowledging that there are gaping gaps in the data so, much you cant answer the question and resort to insults and answer a totally different question instead.
Tells me everything i need to know.

Seriously, does the fact you cant locate a simple figure like that in all of their reports not bother you?

What kind of stasi organization do you want them to become? Do you want name of the school, names and addresses? That is not simple, that's keeping a tap on individual people and tracking them? What you are asking is a list of children, if not listed by names, listed by some sort of id number and list of cases connected to them. That's fine for contact tracers but not for anyone else. I actually can't believe anyone would demand that. And frankly I don't know what relevance or need is for that. Do you want to show up with pitch forks at their house.

The reason you are not getting that information is that no democratic state would provide that. You are getting averages but there is no reason to personalize that. I actually think you are just deflecting to cover up nonsense you wrote earlier. Sometime it is ok to admit you don't understand basics.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

What kind of stasi organization do you want them to become? Do you want name of the school, names and addresses? That is not simple, that's keeping a tap on individual people and tracking them? What you are asking is a list of children, if not listed by names, listed by some sort of id number and list of cases connected to them. That's fine for contact tracers but not for anyone else. I actually can't believe anyone would demand that. And frankly I don't know what relevance or need is for that. Do you want to show up with pitch forks at their house.

The reason you are not getting that information is that no democratic state would provide that. You are getting averages but there is no reason to personalize that. I actually think you are just deflecting to cover up nonsense you wrote earlier. Sometime it is ok to admit you don't understand basics.

That poster said FIGURES. A number. You're dodging and insulting and embellishing the original question because that's all you can do at this point.

Edited to add: you can't believe anyone would demand to know connected cases? Then why do we know exactly how many people were infected from a single traveler from abroad and the chain reaction?

Icyseanfitz

So its looks likely that level 5 is coming, will anything, any bloody thing at all be done to make schools safer

JimmyVik

meeeeh wrote: »

What kind of stasi organization do you want them to become? Do you want name of the school, names and addresses? That is not simple, that's keeping a tap on individual people and tracking them? What you are asking is a list of children, if not listed by names, listed by some sort of id number and list of cases connected to them. That's fine for contact tracers but not for anyone else. I actually can't believe anyone would demand that. And frankly I don't know what relevance or need is for that. Do you want to show up with pitch forks at their house.

The reason you are not getting that information is that no democratic state would provide that. You are getting averages but there is no reason to personalize that. I actually think you are just deflecting to cover up nonsense you wrote earlier. Sometime it is ok to admit you don't understand basics.

And you are off again.
Off on a totally different tangent to what we are discussing. Trying to deflect by stating that I am asking a different question than the one I am asking.

We are discussing very simple things and you are going off on weird tangents.
Why even bother trying to engage with people in the thread?
Let me state the question again.



How many children in primary schools who have tested positive for the virus have passed the virus to someone else?



So to keep the answer simple for you, to prevent you going off on another pointless ramble, as you keep doing.


Do you think that that information should be available?
Do you think perhaps the people of Ireland might be interested in the answer to it?
Do you think it they are recording this data or not?
If they arent why not record something so simple (please dont go off an a trip about stazi or GDPR or whatever your chosen misdirection is for your next post. These are simple numbers. They dont require breaking the law or having guns to record)



If you dont know the answers, keep it simple and just say you dont know.
Dont go off trying to muddy the waters again.


I'll check back tomorrow to see if you actually answered the simple question or if you went off on another one.

Do you understand the point people are making that it is easier for nphet, to just give straight answers and publish simple numbers than obscuring the numbers in the reports they have designed?
Hint : its exactly what you are doing when asked a simple question.

Do you think simple answers to simple questions are better for all?

Mrsmum

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

So its looks likely that level 5 is coming, will anything, any bloody thing at all be done to make schools safer

Going to level 5 does make schools safer. You are more at risk today with everybody free to do lots of stuff than you will be when those freedoms are taken away at level 5 from your colleagues, your students and their families and the wider public.

Icyseanfitz

Mrsmum wrote: »

Going to level 5 does make schools safer. You are more at risk today with everybody free to do lots of stuff than you will be when those freedoms are taken away at level 5 from your colleagues, your students and their families and the wider public.

So long as people obey the new guidelines, we are taking it on blind faith people are going to do what they should, and who's to say schools won't continue the growth or stabilization of the virus. We all like to believe schools aren't adding to the transmission, we will sure as **** know in a few weeks if everything is level 5 bar schools.

Mrsmum

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

So long as people obey the new guidelines, we are taking it on blind faith people are going to do what they should, and who's to say schools won't continue the growth or stabilization of the virus. We all like to believe schools aren't adding to the transmission, we will sure as **** know in a few weeks if everything is level 5 bar schools.

Imo people will follow the guidelines simply because they will want to get back to 'normal' as soon as possible. Other people have the opposite problem to you. They will be forced to stop working and will be trying to get back to business as quickly as possible. Anyway would you not like to prove your case at this point.

MOH

blanch152 wrote: »

Take the example earlier in this thread where it was stated that 30 teachers in a school showed up as close contacts on the app. That shouldn't happen if the school was following the rules laid down by the Department. Breaks should be staggered, social distancing between teachers at all times etc.

How were 30 teachers in a school identified as being close contacts on an app that doesn't provide any identifying data?

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Well you were completely caught out there. They test 1 child and they are positive and the positivity rate is 1 in 30 FFS.

Still making me laugh thanks.

Love to know what you think you caught me out on lol

Icyseanfitz

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo people will follow the guidelines simply because they will want to get back to 'normal' as soon as possible. Other people have the opposite problem to you. They will be forced to stop working and will be trying to get back to business as quickly as possible. Anyway would you not like to prove your case at this point.

Stupid comment, all im saying is its a gamble banking everything on schools not spreading it when we know that we aren't contact tracing correctly in schools and in other countries it has been proven that schools are a danger.

downthemiddle

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, in many cases, if the school is doing its job properly, if all the protocols have been followed correctly, there shouldn't be any close contacts, certainly there should be no teacher-to-teacher transmission. If that is a problem in a school, the school isn't following the guidelines.

I presume you feel the same way about hospitals, care homes, meat plants, restaurants and people's homes? The virus is only spreading because people aren't following the guidelines in all locations based on your argument.

downthemiddle

blanch152 wrote: »

Wow, just wow, look at the entitlement culture from the INTO - see piece in bold.

They want more than people working in meat factories get, more than people working in hospitals get, more than people working in care homes, direct provision centres, prisons get etc. and all of those people are in much more dangerous situations than teachers.

People in the high-risk category are out there in the health service putting their lives at risk every day to save teachers and their families and everyone else, yet the teachers want special measures for themselves.

The union wants the exact number of school staff who have tested positive since September to be published with a breakdown by job and school type.

It has called for the publication of medical evidence to support the continuation of attendance in schools of staff who are pregnant or in the high-risk health category.
Wow just wow. They want clear information on infection rates in school and clarification on high risk members. How dare they upset you like that.

Smacruairi

No one wants the schools to close, not teachers, not parents, not students. However, I do not feel it is unrealistic nor unreasonable for school communities to be asking for added protections given as we are moving the country to the highest level we have, and given that when the Roadmap for Return to schools was devised it didn't identify that the virus spreads so readily through the air.

The original document which still covers all schools to date insists 1m is fine (we now know that that is fine for 15mins max). It didn't advise the wearing of masks, masks are now mandatory throughout all retail outlets which are running at reduced capacity etc. The documents defined close contacts as everyone in a pod, this has now been changed seemingly as hoc to those to the left and right of the child alone, without official guidance delivered to parents and students.

We have learned a lot more in a month about the virus, and the distinct lack of clarity surrounding the data (the need for 100k ppl to join a Facebook group as there is no breakdown even on a weekly basis when we were getting daily news reports about factories and gaa teams), all suggests a rethink of the way we certify the safety of schools and the way we do schooling.

It is extremely worrying the amount of people who don't think that a rethink about putting everyone together in the one building as per usual is needed. There are many many many alternatives and alterations being suggested. You have seen parents and a very eloquent student articulate their beliefs and their needs,and they reflect the concern that is out there. I have students in my class very concerned at bringing home the virus, but feel they are in a Sophies choice scenario because they don't want to miss teaching - that is extremely damaging to a child's sense of civic responsibility.

To reduce arguments to "teachers want schools closed, screw em" does no benefit to any form of social cohesion.

meeeeh

JimmyVik wrote: »

And you are off again.
Off on a totally different tangent to what we are discussing. Trying to deflect by stating that I am asking a different question than the one I am asking.

We are discussing very simple things and you are going off on weird tangents.
Why even bother trying to engage with people in the thread?
Let me state the question again.



How many children in primary schools who have tested positive for the virus have passed the virus to someone else?



So to keep the answer simple for you, to prevent you going off on another pointless ramble, as you keep doing.


Do you think that that information should be available?
Do you think perhaps the people of Ireland might be interested in the answer to it?
Do you think it they are recording this data or not?
If they arent why not record something so simple (please dont go off an a trip about stazi or GDPR or whatever your chosen misdirection is for your next post. These are simple numbers. They dont require breaking the law or having guns to record)



If you dont know the answers, keep it simple and just say you dont know.
Dont go off trying to muddy the waters again.


I'll check back tomorrow to see if you actually answered the simple question or if you went off on another one.

Do you understand the point people are making that it is easier for nphet, to just give straight answers and publish simple numbers than obscuring the numbers in the reports they have designed?
Hint : its exactly what you are doing when asked a simple question.

Do you think simple answers to simple questions are better for all?

I think simple answers are not possible and the simple answer you want is irrelevant, it won't be reliable (I'll let you think about that), intrusive and it will add no particular value. But yes nobody is answering the question nobody else except you posed then yes you are correct. But that's the plan anyway isn't it? Demand an answer to obscure question to disregard separate valid points.

khalessi

MOH wrote: »

How were 30 teachers in a school identified as being close contacts on an app that doesn't provide any identifying data?

I presume the app gives a location, anyway the HSE got involved checked out location and discovered it was a secondary school and that 30 of the people contacted were teachers out 120 staff.

Why do teachers get blamed for sd, it may or may not be true? It could have been a student moving around the school. Point being the HSE told them it was a glitch in the app. There have been no glitches before or since.

solerina

frank8211 wrote: »

But when a case emerges in a school, the hse determines usually that there are no close contacts so no one to test. Like St Munchins today

This is the only reason the numbers don’t look catastrophic in relation to schools, they are simply not testing so they can’t find cases itpf they don’t test !! We have had a few cases in my school and in each instance no close contacts were identified even when the class group had spent all day together

wirelessdude01

khalessi wrote: »

I presume the app gives a location, anyway the HSE got involved checked out location and discovered it was a secondary school and that 30 of the people contacted were teachers out 120 staff.

Why do teachers get blamed for sd, it may or may not be true? It could have been a student moving around the school. Point being the HSE told them it was a glitch in the app. There have been no glitches before or since.

I fully expect them to disable the app later this week anyway. I've heard of people over the last few days who were pinged but never contacted. They rang their GP who said that the app is now pretty much being ignored unless you are displayed symptoms. So much for all those positive asymptomatic cases.

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

Great example of whatabouttery. Maybe they all deserve better.

Yeah, look at the entitlement! Did it ever occur to you that sometimes there actually is an entitlement? It's not the dirty word you make it out to be.

Look the teacher unions are a joke, they are proving it with this kind of stuff.

niamh247

downthemiddle wrote: »

The union wants the exact number of school staff who have tested positive since September to be published with a breakdown by job and school type.

It has called for the publication of medical evidence to support the continuation of attendance in schools of staff who are pregnant or in the high-risk health category.[/B]
Wow just wow. They want clear information on infection rates in school and clarification on high risk members. How dare they upset you like that.

I think your comments are just feeding someone to argue their way ...

Icyseanfitz

blanch152 wrote: »

Look the teacher unions are a joke, they are proving it with this kind of stuff.

yeah feck them, legitimately worried about the safety of their members, monsters :rolleyes: