Schools closed until February? (part 3)

irishblessing

Mrsmum wrote: »

You really should learn to have a civil conversation. What age are you ?

I am perfectly civil. And what age are you (was that an example of civility yourself?) that you cannot read posts and properly extract the information from them, instead arguing your own point that doesn't even apply.

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

The parent's job might involve more than sending an email on Monday though.

Not all teachers did that some taught and if you are unsure, rather than hashing it up read the previous threads.

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

And because every parent naturally and rightly cares the most about their own kids that means those 25 kids will be disadvantaged.

Some of us were able to do both, it is called being professional and multitasking again read previous threads rather than rehashing this.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Newsflash just finding any report and hoping nobody else will read it. I suspect you actually read the report only when you were challenged on your claims about the report. You still didn't explain what is it's relevance in relation to your claims.

I already did. And at the time it was posted it the conversation was already had. I'm not rehashing an entire conversation for you, go back and read it the posts are all there if you want to find them. Once again, I made my point about remote learning plans being a valid and useful tool used the world over during this pandemic. The value is also seen here in our Uni's, our schools who already did so back in March, and now from our DES who issued a directive for all schools to implement (fully remote though). If you can't understand that, and expect me to spend hours of my time answering your own questions which are not central to the point being made then I don't know what to say at this point. Again, I made my point. I am not interested in comparing/contrasting specific remote plans in over 60 countries but if you are knock yourself out.

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

The kids who are at risk of leaving school are less likely to re-engage when the schools come back. They are also a lot less likely to do home schooling.

Is this specific for poor families only?

What in particular they lose if all schools will be closed for 1.5 months?

Should not school summer holidays be prohibited because of such damage?

Mrsmum

irishblessing wrote: »

I am perfectly civil. And what age are you (was that an example of civility yourself?) that you cannot read posts and properly extract the information from them, instead arguing your own point that doesn't even apply.

My last word on it but you are most certainly not civil. Or perhaps your version of civil falls way short of mine. You use capitals which stands for shouting , use doh, Jesus wept and other teenage ridiculing & goading language at posters who simply have a different opinion from you. And for the record people were using the example of colleges going remotely as a justification for schools doing the same so it was very relevant, thank you very much. Now ignore me as I will you.

wirelessdude01

At some stage the Govt/department will have to amend how schools are operating, I really do think that is a given. Parents and the general population have a choice to make now with regards to their priorities and how their actions are impacting. You can't have it both ways. If they want schools to remain fully operational then things can't remain as they are.

The choice is theirs. Their actions will direct what happens next.

irishblessing

Mrsmum wrote: »

My last word on it but you are most certainly not civil. Or perhaps your version of civil falls way short of mine. You use capitals which stands for shouting , use doh, Jesus wept and other teenage ridiculing & goading language at posters who simply have a different opinion from you. And for the record people were using the example of colleges going remotely as a justification for schools doing the same so it was very relevant, thank you very much. Now ignore me as I will you.

Capitals are for emphasis AS WELL which was my intention so reign it in there, and I will use any phrases I like that illustrate my lack of patience and quite frankly lack of will to even entertain the constant nonsense and disingenuousness here. Backseat modding is not allowed I will also point out.

For the record, colleges also have HYBRID remote learning plans actually. There are labs and practicals that are still being done inside of classrooms, thank you very much yourself.

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

Is this specific for poor families only?

What in particular they lose if all schools will be closed for 1.5 months?

Should not school summer holidays be prohibited because of such damage?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-52701850

I think you don't understand that kids will compete with their peers for positions in universities and jobs. The bigger the gulf harder it is to catch up.

LittleBrick

An online approach for a few weeks now could prevent another widespread school closure from December through to Spring. While not hard to understand, we as humans like routine, and are generally resistant to change, and this would be a huge societal change! Pasting an old post by me to try and explain what I would be suggesting.

Nationwide level 5 lockdown.

Teachers continue teaching online. 3x30 minute lessons a day. Sample timetable:

Junior and Senior Infants Maths: 9:00-9:30
First and Second Class Maths: 9:30-10:00
Third and Fourth Class Maths: 10:00-10:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Maths: 10:30-11:00

Junior and Senior Infants English: 11:00-11:30
First and Second Class English: 11:30-12:00
Third and Fourth Class English: 12:00-12:30
Fifth and Sixth Class English: 12:30-13:00

Junior and Senior Infants Gaeilge: 13:00-13:30
First and Second Class Gaeilge: 13:30-14:00
Third and Fourth Class Gaeilge: 14:00-14:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Gaeilge: 14:30-15:00

Children who receive support would have their support classes timetabled around these times by their support teacher.
Work is assigned to be done after each lesson so the children can work on that while waiting.
By grouping it by classes, it should near eliminate the need of more than one device, as most siblings are not in the same class bracket (some are, I know).
Teachers can choose to work from the school or from home, depending on their circumstances regarding internet/childcare etc.

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

I've already addressed those points.

So what's your answer- let the students and families and schools flop around with constant closures and quarantines, each time disrupting learning? Continue to ignore lessons from other countries about transmission and lack of safety in crowded classrooms? Extremely short-sighted.

The lessons from other countries is that classrooms are low-risk environments for the transmission of the virus.

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-52701850

I think you don't understand that kids will compete with their peers for positions in universities and jobs. The bigger the gulf harder it is to catch up.

Question was: "what in particular poor people will lose if schools will be closed for 1.5 month [as part of full lockdown]?".

JimmyVik

khalessi wrote: »

Some of us were able to do both, it is called being professional and multitasking again read previous threads rather than rehashing this.

You cant win.
Some people have only one job. Teacher bashing. They literally have nothing else to do in their lives. So they spend their days on the internet trolling teachers. They are relentless with lots of time on their hands.
You are best ignoring them.

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

That you know of. (Are you being told of all the cases?) You also don't know of any more because children tend to be asymptomatic, can spread the virus at least as well as adults do according to large studies and also Dr. Mike Ryan of WHO, and aren't being 'mass tested' as was claimed by government yesterday. So of course there would be more cases. Saying there is 'no risk' is just ridiculous. Doctors and scientists have acknowledged this in many of the research papers I've read- that it's difficult to establish where transmission first occurred because it was assumed it came first from the parents or home or community as initially there were many assumptions about children and this virus. "Overlooked" is a word I often saw in this context.

Edited here to add: the only people I know (here in Ireland) personally who have been sick with the virus is my cousin and his wife. They were both very sick for a few weeks back in March, tested positive. Their two young kids were never tested, so they are in no data base. However about a week before they were sick, myself and my two kids bumped into them outside the shops and their oldest child had "a cold" and his wife told me she had a fever that's gone... As I said the kids were never tested but one of them was sick before the parents and it was assumed at that time children didn't catch or spread it so they were "overlooked."

Personally I am very disappointed there was not an extended midterm break, and an announcement to implement a hybrid remote learning plan. Some learn from home full time, some in school full time (all depending on need) and the rest on a rotating schedule so as to reduce class size numbers.

I feel like this has been pointed out enough. Other countries are doing it. The fact that it isn't even being TALKED about by government to me shows they're just to g-d lazy or inept to consider it and put in the work it would take to support this model for only what, less than a million households if you remove 3rd level who are already doing this here? Joke. :mad:

irishblessing wrote: »

Jesus, it's getting extremely tiresome and irritating to keep saying things over and over.
Take off your privileged glasses for a moment, just a moment, and realise there are ALOT of high risk individuals out there. Students and families that they live with and they currently have no other option. There is one of these such students right here on this very thread and who has spoken about the impact on their mental health and you're still going to dismiss them so easily? Wow.

Secondly, classes and schools closing and quarantines are happening EVERYWHERE, all over the country. It will continue to happen, this is a problem we have CURRENTLY so you're wrong there. And as things go one it will only get worse and there is a lack of subs at the moment too. Probably why the testing is such a farce- the government know there aren't enough subs to step in during quarantines to keep the classes going. Our teachers are being sacrificed and students and their families as well because the gov't and DES were too g-d lazy and inept to get off their backsides the last 7 months and come up with better plans and safety measures as other countries have done.

If kids are still receiving an education mixed with in-person learning then they aren't going to be damaged in the long term. Teacher unions... should have had more back bone much earlier but better late than never. I wouldn't be surprised to see a strike. It isn't about scoring points, but you're obviously trying to with a disingenuous comment like that. This is a needlessly dangerous situation with solutions they don't even care to implement.

I don't believe you understand the statistics around the testing.

Tests in schools have found very low positivity rates (1.7% according to one report) compared to tests in the community (7% positivity rates). That indicates two possibilities - either too many are being tested and are not really close contacts, or there is limited transmission in schools.

Given that the complaints from posters on here are that there are too few being tested, then the likely explanation is the latter one - transmission in schools is low.

That means that there is no need to close schools. Furthermore, with other workplaces being closed down, and clusters reduced, that gives the opportunity over the next few weeks to increase the testing in schools. If that shows increased transmission, above the community rate, the question can be revisited at that time.

MOH

khalessi wrote: »

I presume the app gives a location, anyway the HSE got involved checked out location and discovered it was a secondary school and that 30 of the people contacted were teachers out 120 staff.

Why do teachers get blamed for sd, it may or may not be true? It could have been a student moving around the school. Point being the HSE told them it was a glitch in the app. There have been no glitches before or since.

The app is supposed to give nothing apart from uploading anonymised tokens when someone tests positive, which other copies of the app then check against to see if they have a copy of that token from being in close contact, and then alert the user that they were in close contact at some point with someone who tested positive. No location, no detail of where or when the contact was.

There should be absolutely no way for the HSE or anyone else to determine location, who the positive case was, or even how many of the 30 people were close contacts of the same person.

It's obviously possible that when 30 teachers individually each received close contact notifications and notified the school, the school contacted the HSE who investigated in more detail and determined common links through followup questions.

But if the information was derived solely from "a glitch in the app" then there are massive privacy issues with it and it needs to be pulled immediately.

blanch152

JimmyVik wrote: »

You cant win.
Some people have only one job. Teacher bashing. They literally have nothing else to do in their lives. So they spend their days on the internet trolling teachers. They are relentless with lots of time on their hands.
You are best ignoring them.

Stating that there are no public health reasons to close schools and that children are better served by schools remaining open is not teacher bashing (unless you are part of some victim culture).

blanch152

MOH wrote: »

The app is supposed to give nothing apart from uploading anonymised tokens when someone tests positive, which other copies of the app then check against to see if they have a copy of that token from being in close contact, and then alert the user that they were in close contact at some point with someone who tested positive. No location, no detail of where or when the contact was.

There should be absolutely no way for the HSE or anyone else to determine location, who the positive case was, or even how many of the 30 people were close contacts of the same person.

It's obviously possible that when 30 teachers individually each received close contact notifications and notified the school, the school contacted the HSE who investigated in more detail and determined common links through followup questions.

But if the information was derived solely from "a glitch in the app" then there are massive privacy issues with it and it needs to be pulled immediately.

If that story is true, that 30 teachers in one school were notified as close contacts, then the school's implementation of the Department's regulations on Covid was deeply flawed. The Board of Management and the Principal need to answer for that.

Unless it was the teachers having a house party to mark being back at school.

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe you understand the statistics around the testing.

Tests in schools have found very low positivity rates (1.7% according to one report) compared to tests in the community (7% positivity rates). That indicates two possibilities - either too many are being tested and are not really close contacts, or there is limited transmission in schools.

Given that the complaints from posters on here are that there are too few being tested, then the likely explanation is the latter one - transmission in schools is low.

That means that there is no need to close schools. Furthermore, with other workplaces being closed down, and clusters reduced, that gives the opportunity over the next few weeks to increase the testing in schools. If that shows increased transmission, above the community rate, the question can be revisited at that time.

Do you understand the many failings around testing and contact tracing already stated here which ultimately makes the data unreliable? Do you believe the statement made by gov't yesterday that they have done "mass testing" in the schools is factual?

Schools and classes are already being closed due to lack of HSE contact and lack of subs which is interrupting learning. Do you believe that testing is going to increase in the schools then?

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

Question was: "what in particular poor people will lose if schools will be closed for 1.5 month [as part of full lockdown]?".

Knowledge.

LittleBrick

Irishblessing, I do not think you're approach is helping your message, which I mostly agree with.

The facts are that testing in schools shows that they maynot be contributing to the spread. However, as studies have also shown, children rarely show symptoms and can carry it asymptomatically. As such, we cannot definitely state they aren't contributing unless every child in the country is tested, which is not going to happen any time soon.

Teachers are worried, understandably so. Teachers are annoyed at the lack of PPE, testing and protective measures put in place, again understandably so. But we have a job to do and, even if we disagree with the guidelines, we must follow them. If you do have a major issue with them, I urge you not to argue with people on board, but e-mail TDs, ministers, newspapers, media or someone that can actually do something to address the situation.

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

Knowledge.

Thanks. In relation to knowlege:

1. Is this specific for poor families only? Middle class has children of different pedigree?
   
2. Should not school summer holidays be prohibited because of such damage?
   
3. If some child cannot keep their knowlege for duration of 1.5 months - does it matter to spend effort on their education at all?

eagle eye

blanch152 wrote:

I don't believe you understand the statistics around the testing.

I don't believe you understand how messed up testing is and how much they are ignoring. I'm aware of three different families whose kids ere not sent home after a child in their kids pods tested positive where they were s not home when a second child tested positive.
I'm aware that no cases in the home have been traced back to schools even though the parents were adamant that there was no other way it could have gotten into their home.
As a result the school numbers are skewed in favour of what idiots like the minister for education want you to believe.

Boggles

Norma doing her best to say it was completely Public healths decision to keep schools open all though it's a cabinet core priority.

Distancing herself from the shít storm before it was even announced.

Fair play to you Norma.

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

Thanks. In relation to knowlege:

1. Is this specific for poor families only? Middle class has children of different pedigree?
   
2. Should not school summer holidays be prohibited because of such damage?
   
3. If some child cannot keep their knowlege for duration of 1.5 months - does it matter to spend effort on their education at all?

no
no
yes

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

Do you understand the many failings around testing and contact tracing already stated here which ultimately makes the data unreliable? Do you believe the statement made by gov't yesterday that they have done "mass testing" in the schools is factual?

Schools and classes are already being closed due to lack of HSE contact and lack of subs which is interrupting learning. Do you believe that testing is going to increase in the schools then?

No, I don't accept those failings, and I don't accept their relevance.

The argument being put forward here is that the HSE are not testing all kids in a pod, just those with the closest contact with the infected child. If this were true, it would have the following effects:

(1) The postivity rate for schools would be way higher than the positivity rate for the community - the opposite is being seen

(2) Significant numbers of cases would be missed, and cases of Covid-19 in schools would exponentially grow over a short framework of two weeks - again, the schools are back six weeks and we are not seeing that happen.

There is still time for these trends to change, but they are not being seen. The two biggest risks in a school environment are firstly teachers not respecting social distancing between each other and transmission taking place in staff rooms and staff canteens, and secondly, parents at the school gate not social distancing and not ensuring that their children socially distance outside the school environment.

wirelessdude01

blanch152 wrote: »

If that story is true, that 30 teachers in one school were notified as close contacts, then the school's implementation of the Department's regulations on Covid was deeply flawed. The Board of Management and the Principal need to answer for that.

Unless it was the teachers having a house party to mark being back at school.

Do keep up. The HSE stated it was a 'glitch' and to just ignore. Said 'glitch' has never been properly explained. Union, BOM and also a local TD asked for an explanation and none was forthcoming. Take what you want from that silence. There have been plenty of student cases in that school since.

wirelessdude01

Boggles wrote: »

Norma doing her best to say it was completely Public healths decision to keep schools open all though it's a cabinet core priority.

Distancing herself from the shít storm before it was even announced.

Fair play to you Norma.

Fionna Sheahan on CB this morning said that Norma's thoughts were ignored at the cabinet table for the same reason that the original level 5 recommendation was, it hadn't been discussed or raised by her prior to this.
He also said that her office has been bombarded by schools, teachers and parents raising concerns over the utter lack of testing and tracing when it comes to schools.

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

no
no
yes

So if some specific issues of poor people is not a problem, termination of education for month or two is not a problem as in case of summer holidays, and you think even those who cannot learn should be educated as any other pupil - then what is the problem to close schools for period of lockdown? Incomplete lockdown will only extend struggle of economics - nobody will benefit from it.

irishblessing

LittleBrick wrote: »

Irishblessing, I do not think you're approach is helping your message, which I mostly agree with.

The facts are that testing in schools shows that they maynot be contributing to the spread. However, as studies have also shown, children rarely show symptoms and can carry it asymptomatically. As such, we cannot definitely state they aren't contributing unless every child in the country is tested, which is not going to happen any time soon.

Teachers are worried, understandably so. Teachers are annoyed at the lack of PPE, testing and protective measures put in place, again understandably so. But we have a job to do and, even if we disagree with the guidelines, we must follow them. If you do have a major issue with them, I urge you not to argue with people on board, but e-mail TDs, ministers, newspapers, media or someone that can actually do something to address the situation.

There's no need to be so condescending, LittleBrick. I largely agree with your posts as well. What you may be missing is the history of this thread going back to a previous one and the same points have been hashed out with the same posters multiple times. There are posters who seem to deliberately and disingenuously mischaracterise a point - such as the very tired argument that we just want schools to close despite numerous solutions to the opposite and the responses continue to be along the vein of "why it's bad for schools to close." It's very irritating.
It's not your place to urge me or anyone not to debate amongst ourselves here, and also to assume those actions you mention haven't been done already. Perhaps if you had been on these threads for months or read back to the very start (as I did) you would know that myself and others have done this.

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

So if some specific issues of poor people is not a problem, termination of education for month or two is not a problem as in case of summer holidays, and you think even those who cannot learn should be educated as any other pupil - then what is the problem to close schools for period of lockdown? Incomplete lockdown will only extend struggle of economics - nobody will benefit from it.

The problem:
home abuse
lower referrals to social services
non engagement with home schooling
hunger
neglect

Those problems are not exclusive to poorer people but are more prevalent for that socio economic group. If you can't see how school closure is harming kids you probably never saw much value in school anyway.