Schools closed until February? (part 3)

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I don't accept those failings, and I don't accept their relevance.

The argument being put forward here is that the HSE are not testing all kids in a pod, just those with the closest contact with the infected child. If this were true, it would have the following effects:

(1) The postivity rate for schools would be way higher than the positivity rate for the community - the opposite is being seen

(2) Significant numbers of cases would be missed, and cases of Covid-19 in schools would exponentially grow over a short framework of two weeks - again, the schools are back six weeks and we are not seeing that happen.

There is still time for these trends to change, but they are not being seen. The two biggest risks in a school environment are firstly teachers not respecting social distancing between each other and transmission taking place in staff rooms and staff canteens, and secondly, parents at the school gate not social distancing and not ensuring that their children socially distance outside the school environment.

Why don't you accept those failings? The HSE are at times not testing anyone else in fact, aren't gathering all the relevant data and picture inside the classroom to even make that informed determination, have changed and moved the goalposts, and in some instances are not engaging at all with school's leaving the BOM and principals to make the call. You won't accept those failings? You believe that the statement they made saying that they have conducted 'mass testing' in the schools to be a true statement?

As a result of those failings already outlined all over this thread, cases are in fact being missed. Children tend to be more asymptomatic and therefore not tested in the school system so the 'community spread' (of which schools are a part) could also be attributed in that category. Hasn't the child age groups increased significantly regardless of these failings?

I believe the biggest risks in the school environment are the crowded classrooms and lack of social distances, lack of mask wearing in primary though children age 10 and older are known to contract and spread the virus at least as well as adults do, a lack of proper ventilation, and a lack of social distancing in the traveling to/from school and on the play yard.

HerrKuehn

irishblessing wrote: »

Why don't you accept those failings? The HSE are at times not testing anyone else in fact, aren't gathering all the relevant data and picture inside the classroom to even make that informed determination, have changed and moved the goalposts, and in some instances are not engaging at all with school's leaving the BOM and principals to make the call. You won't accept those failings? You believe that the statement they made saying that they have conducted 'mass testing' in the schools to be a true statement?

As a result of those failings already outlined all over this thread, cases are in fact being missed. Children tend to be more asymptomatic and therefore not tested in the school system so the 'community spread' (of which schools are a part) could also be attributed in that category. Hasn't the child age groups increased significantly regardless of these failings?

I believe the biggest risks in the school environment are the crowded classrooms and lack of social distances, lack of mask wearing in primary though children age 10 and older are known to contract and spread the virus at least as well as adults do, a lack of proper ventilation, and a lack of social distancing in the traveling to/from school and on the play yard.

Do you think it is possible that maybe NPHET and the HSE know a bit more about how to effectively test than you do? I would be the first to admit I don't know how they should be testing to ensure they catch as many cases as possible, while also trying to stay within the testing capacity.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

Why don't schools (who have the technology) live stream their classes and give kids the choice (if they have the technology at home) whether or not they want to physically attend the school.

Even if it reduces classroom occupation by 25% it'll help the cause.

xhomelezz

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Why don't schools (who have the technology) live stream their classes and give kids the choice (if they have the technology at home) whether or not they want to physically attend the school.

Even if it reduces classroom occupation by 25% it'll help the cause.

I believe that decision is not up to schools.

8k71ps

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I don't accept those failings, and I don't accept their relevance.

The argument being put forward here is that the HSE are not testing all kids in a pod, just those with the closest contact with the infected child. If this were true, it would have the following effects:

(1) The postivity rate for schools would be way higher than the positivity rate for the community - the opposite is being seen

(2) Significant numbers of cases would be missed, and cases of Covid-19 in schools would exponentially grow over a short framework of two weeks - again, the schools are back six weeks and we are not seeing that happen.

There is still time for these trends to change, but they are not being seen. The two biggest risks in a school environment are firstly teachers not respecting social distancing between each other and transmission taking place in staff rooms and staff canteens, and secondly, parents at the school gate not social distancing and not ensuring that their children socially distance outside the school environment.

Or that there is a bias due to a lack of systemic testing or lop sided contact tracing, ie in certain cases everyone in a class gets tested, or almost nobody is. Based off of albeit anecdotal reports amongst teachers that seems to be the case. Also there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Children are somehow immune or can't infect people when in the premises of a school, as seen in studies like https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-08/mgh-rsc081720.php, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2768952, https://www.luriechildrens.org/en/news-stories/young-kids-could-spread-covid-19-as-much-as-older-children-and-adults/ , all of these indicate that also the symptoms in children are very similar to the common cold / are atypical compared to the rest of the population, which is also possibly a secondary reason as to why there is apparently fewer contacts.Also considering that X-rayed children seem to have similar lung damage as adults despite being asymptomatic. That combined with known neurological symptoms (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/2767979), the outlook looks both unknown and grim, not exactly the conditions you want for cowboys to be reopening them in.




Most of our governments evidence seems to come when reports like https://outline.com/X4jbkj were being published, however pretty much all of them seem to be false. There is nothing more dirty and germ ridden as a kid, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that they are less efficient carriers or for schools to remain completely open from a health perspective.

wirelessdude01

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Why don't schools (who have the technology) live stream their classes and give kids the choice (if they have the technology at home) whether or not they want to physically attend the school.

Even if it reduces classroom occupation by 25% it'll help the cause.

I believe we don't currently have that option. It's either all in or all out at the moment. No choice allowed for hybrid teaching.

8k71ps

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Why don't schools (who have the technology) live stream their classes and give kids the choice (if they have the technology at home) whether or not they want to physically attend the school.

Even if it reduces classroom occupation by 25% it'll help the cause.

The institute of education in Dublin asked to do just this and the Department didn't allow them.

HerrKuehn

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I believe we don't currently have that option. It's either all in or all out at the moment. No choice allowed for hybrid teaching.

I think ASTI also stated that teachers should not engage in live streaming. So it is off the cards anyway.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

xhomelezz wrote: »

I believe that decision is not up to schools.

Whomever the decision lies with, it's one that could easily be implemented.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I think ASTI also stated that teachers should not engage in live streaming. So it is off the cards anyway.

Why would the union take such a stance?

eagle eye

Any word from the teachers unions today?
Gotta be demanding the closure of schools to protect the teachers I'd imagine.

wirelessdude01

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I think ASTI also stated that teachers should not engage in live streaming. So it is off the cards anyway.

Have you a link to that?

Funny how you don't mention that the TUI position is also to not allow live streaming outside of the school building. You obviously only have a hard on for the ASTI.

irishblessing

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Do you think it is possible that maybe NPHET and the HSE know a bit more about how to effectively test than you do? I would be the first to admit I don't know how they should be testing to ensure they catch as many cases as possible, while also trying to stay within the testing capacity.

They're not even following their own guidelines, HerrKuehn.

We also would have thought that NPHET and other science led bodies around the world should have known the simple effectiveness of masks on a respiratory virus but we all know how that story played out, don't we? Agenda's get in the way.

LittleBrick

irishblessing wrote: »

There's no need to be so condescending, LittleBrick. I largely agree with your posts as well. What you may be missing is the history of this thread going back to a previous one and the same points have been hashed out with the same posters multiple times. There are posters who seem to deliberately and disingenuously mischaracterise a point - such as the very tired argument that we just want schools to close despite numerous solutions to the opposite and the responses continue to be along the vein of "why it's bad for schools to close." It's very irritating.
It's not your place to urge me or anyone not to debate amongst ourselves here, and also to assume those actions you mention haven't been done already. Perhaps if you had been on these threads for months or read back to the very start (as I did) you would know that myself and others have done this.

If you read my post as condescension that is not what I intended.



I'm just choosing to not get worked up or engage with people who never have and never will have any respect teachers. It only brings undue stress and pressure on you and you will never win, as logic goes out the window in the face of dislike.

HerrKuehn

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Have you a link to that?

Funny how you don't mention that the TUI position is also to not allow live streaming outside of the school building. You obviously only have a hard on for the ASTI.

I was not aware that both secondary unions had the same policy. Of course I don't have a hard on for ASTI, that is a bit strange is it not?

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

The problem:
home abuse
lower referrals to social services
hunger

Not specific to lockdown. I do not see how it can be different to summer holidays.

meeeeh wrote: »

non engagement with home schooling

AFAIK, there is no working methods to teach youngsters this way. Therefore remote education is not considered. Simple shut schools down for 1.5 months as it would be additional holyday.

meeeeh wrote: »

neglect

Could not this be addressed somehow? Donate computer and/or internet access to children whose families cannot afford it on their own and let them communicate with their class mates, may be some teachers would like to contact them virtually. As side effect - they may be will get some interest in their new toy and would get stimulus to learn technogy.

meeeeh wrote: »

Those problem are not exclusive to poorer people but are more prevalent for that socio economic group. If you can't see how school closure is harming kids you probably never saw much value in school anyway.

I just comparing 1.5 month of lockdown with summer holidays. I see only two differences: there is no summer and no contacts outside of house can be made. While former obstacle cannot be worked around, impact of the latter could be mitigated to some degree.

Partial lockdown unlikely can be effective enough, it will just extend duration of period of business struggles - may be up to the point when government will spend all their money and will not be able to pay PUPs and other compensation.

ruwithme

eagle eye wrote: »

Any word from the teachers unions today?
Gotta be demanding the closure of schools to protect the teachers I'd imagine.

That's a good one. Sure the children are the lepers.

eagle eye

ruwithme wrote:

That's a good one. Sure the children are the lepers.

I never mentioned children. I spoke about teachers only.

I believe schools should be closed

wirelessdude01

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I was not aware that both secondary unions had the same policy. Of course I don't have a hard on for ASTI, that is a bit strange is it not?

Again have you a link to that ASTI position as I can't find one?

Would indeed be strange for both those unions to actually have the same view point on anything.

I see the INTO have finally awoken from their slumber. John Boyle really is a dose. Can't stand the man but for me it's kinda personal as I had a run in with him when he just a CEC rep.

wirelessdude01

eagle eye wrote: »

Any word from the teachers unions today?
Gotta be demanding the closure of schools to protect the teachers I'd imagine.

Haven't heard any teachers or teacher unions asking for school closures. Easy for people to talk nonsense.

HerrKuehn

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Again have you a link to that ASTI position as I can't find one?

Would indeed be strange for both those unions to actually have the same view point on anything.

I see the INTO have finally awoken from their slumber. John Boyle really is a dose. Can't stand the man but for me it's kinda personal as I had a run in with him when he just a CEC rep.

I don't have a link, just remember reading it somewhere. In any case one of the secondary unions doesn't want streaming, so I suppose it is off, that was really my point initially. I may have thought it was ASTI due to them usually being the more difficult union.

Thats me

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Why don't schools (who have the technology) live stream their classes and give kids the choice (if they have the technology at home) whether or not they want to physically attend the school.

What i heard there were efforts, but there was no success. Remote education requires higher discipline and motivation in children than they have at this age.

eagle eye

wirelessdude01 wrote:

Haven't heard any teachers or teacher unions asking for school closures. Easy for people to talk nonsense.

What do you mean talk nonsense?

Most of them are working in poorly ventilated buildings. Hardly a good place to be in a pandemic.

8k71ps

Thats me wrote: »

What i heard there were efforts, but there was no success. Remote education requires higher discipline and motivation in children than they have at this age.

From what I've seen it highly depends on the age of the kid. Primary schools probably make the most sense to open, but especially above a junior cert level they seem to be perfectly capable of handling a hybrid system at the very least.

wirelessdude01

eagle eye wrote: »

What do you mean talk nonsense?

Most of them are working in poorly ventilated buildings. Hardly a good place to be in a pandemic.

Nonsense about closing schools. If you actually listen to teachers a high majority of them don't want to have to revert to full-time online.

meeeeh

I must say I am very grateful to the work school my kids go is doing and this is part of their newsletter to the parents:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.Our staff too, each and every one of us, want to be here in xxxx. We are making a conscious effort as a staff to shut out the ramblings of the media and some of our own spokespeople and just simply… get on with our job. If you hear people whinging on the media about closing schools, know that they are not speaking for the staff of this school.

Just in case people think attitudes in this thread reflect attitudes of all teachers. i would be surprised if they reflect majority of teachers. All I spoke to don't want to go to homeschooling.

mvl

meeeeh wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-52701850
I think you don't understand that kids will compete with their peers for positions in universities and jobs. The bigger the gulf harder it is to catch up.

I don't agree with what you are on about here.
The thing is that as a parent I have made no contract with the school that my child has to graduate within certain time frame - have you ? My child has plenty of time allocated for education from where I am concerned, we are in no hurry; I am sure having the option, more parents (from same socio-economic background) would say the same thing.
My expectation is that if important for curricula, whatever is missed due to lockdown can be rolled over next year, or year after from where I am concerned. We should be aiming for agility in education, rather than be stuck with old methods.

JDD

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/union-cannot-be-convinced-children-will-safely-return-to-school-after-mid-term-1.4385949

It certainly looks like the unions are ramping up the pressure.

Our Parents Association is asking the school can the children take their books home this Friday before the mid-term break. Parents seem to be coming around to the idea, however reluctantly, that mid-term may be extended. While we have used seesaw during the last lockdown and for occasional homework items in the last three weeks, everyone agrees that completing exercises in a physical copybook is much easier than trying to do it on an app.

I do think that the Level 5 restrictions won't show any results by 29/30 October, the last couple of days of the mid term break. We may well be up to 2,000 new cases a day at that stage. I think the government will come under a lot of pressure to extend out the reopening date, especially with schools closed in the North. I suppose they've resisted pressure this far so maybe they'll continue to do so, we'll see.

blanch152

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Fionna Sheahan on CB this morning said that Norma's thoughts were ignored at the cabinet table for the same reason that the original level 5 recommendation was, it hadn't been discussed or raised by her prior to this.
He also said that her office has been bombarded by schools, teachers and parents raising concerns over the utter lack of testing and tracing when it comes to schools.

You don't need testing and tracing where cases are not arising.

Someone catches the virus at home, informs the school, and the parents want everyone for 20 miles around tested. That is not the way to manage a pandemic.

More than anyone else, teachers should understand that this should be left to the public health experts. No more than teachers need to be told how to do their job, neither do the public health experts.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

I must say I am very grateful to the work school my kids go is doing and this is part of their newsletter to the parents:



Just in case people think attitudes in this thread reflect attitudes of all teachers. i would be surprised if they reflect majority of teachers. All I spoke to don't want to go to homeschooling.

Think you'll find the actual teachers on here, majority of us want schools to remain open. However for this to occur there will need to be drastic improvements in testing, track and trace to ensure this. The current ad-hoc system whereby schools are having to take the place of public health when it comes to making decisions that they shouldn't have to be is wrong.