Schools closed until February? (part 3)

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

If we worked in meat factories and said this is what was going on would you describe it as nonsense?

Do you have any proof for this kind of actions? I posted the link with breakdown of numbers now you can pist some proof of that kind of statistical fraud.

You didn't even understand what positivity rate means and were happy to make all sorts of conclusions. When that was rebuffed suddenly we are talking about intentional massaging of numbers. What that has to do with meat plants I don't know. And no numbers shouldn't be massaged anywhere and there is no proof that I know that they are.

You can prove me wrong with some hard data if you want but with what you or JimmyVik like to believe.

HerrKuehn

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Can some teachers confirm whether they are being told to turn off their Covid19 app?

I know in at least some hospitals that nurses have been told to turn it off.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think I saw that RTE said that their information had been confirmed by numerous different Govt sources.

The leaks are total kite flying, a particular like for one faction of this Govt.

Confirming the story is not the same to leaking it.

blanch152

JimmyVik wrote: »

If you want to manipulate the figures in schools...
You change the rules for close contacts in schools.
You can just not consider people close contacts so that you dont have to test them. Or pick people from other classrooms to test.
If you do have to test them You just move the classification of the tests from schools to homes when you get a positive test back.
So many ways to manipulate the results the way you want.

But the biggest way to manipulate them.
Is to hide the stats in your reports. Pick obscure meaningless age ranges. You know things like that and many more.

And of course, none of those scenarios or any others are happening in schools.

Look at the reports they publish about the virus spreading from an index case. Lots of pretty little graphs and pictures to show us how one person spread the virus to 30 or so others showing pubs, reteraunts, family homes, men, women, gaa matches and much more.
Not a mention of children of all of those people or who may have been in those houses. Children stats washed right out of the their pretty little diagrams.

Transparency please nphet. Thats all people want. Its harder to expose the data to the public in the way you are doing it, than to expose it to them in a transparent manner.

Occam's Razor applies here.

The reason that children don't feature in those little diagrams showing how one person spread the virus to 30 others in pubs, restaurants, family homes, gaa matches etc. is that children didn't spread the disease.

The virus is not spreading in controlled structured situations. It is spreading where people don't obey the rules.

Take the example earlier in this thread where it was stated that 30 teachers in a school showed up as close contacts on the app. That shouldn't happen if the school was following the rules laid down by the Department. Breaks should be staggered, social distancing between teachers at all times etc.

blanch152

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I know in at least some hospitals that nurses have been told to turn it off.

Well, that makes sense for anyone wearing full PPE. The reason you wear full PPE is to protect you when you are in close contact situations with confirmed cases. If the app was on, it would be telling you that you were in a close contact situation with a confirmed case.

newuser99999

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that makes sense for anyone wearing full PPE. The reason you wear full PPE is to protect you when you are in close contact situations with confirmed cases. If the app was on, it would be telling you that you were in a close contact situation with a confirmed case.

Why do you assume nurses are wearing full PPE?

blanch152

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1019/1172454-teachers-schools-coronavirus/

The whole pregnancy thing is one that I've been watching since the start. Officially they say there is nothing to be worried about yet on the HSE letter it tells children who are positive to stay away from pregnant women.

That is precautionary and not based on any firm scientific evidence.

The disease was confirmed in January, nine months ago, the first people to have become pregnant while exposed to the disease are only giving birth now, and apart from China, they would be extremely few in number. Any issues for newborns may not become apparent for several years as they develop, so nobody can say whether the disease is safe or not for pregnant women. There just hasn't been enough time to find out.

HerrKuehn

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that makes sense for anyone wearing full PPE. The reason you wear full PPE is to protect you when you are in close contact situations with confirmed cases. If the app was on, it would be telling you that you were in a close contact situation with a confirmed case.

Sure, I just posted to point out that it isn't unique to teachers

blanch152

newuser99999 wrote: »

Why do you assume nurses are wearing full PPE?

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I know in at least some hospitals that nurses have been told to turn it off.

The poster didn't claim every nurse in every hospital, but we know that nurses in certain situations are wearing full PPE. They would be told to turn off the App for the reasons I explained.

wirelessdude01

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Can some teachers confirm whether they are being told to turn off their Covid19 app?

I know some that have been told to.

meeeeh

newuser99999 wrote: »

Why do you assume nurses are wearing full PPE?

If nurses are working with possible Covid patients zhey will be closed contacts anyway. I hope some regular testing is done in hospitals and nursing homes in any case.

blanch152

eagle eye wrote: »

So if one child is tested in every school in the country and they all test positive we will be told that there's a 100% positivity rate in schools?

Yes, that is the meaning of the positivity rate.

eagle eye wrote: »

Or will we be told that it's under 1% because they use the full number of students in schools?

No, that is not the positivity rate, that is the testing rate. Two very different statistics.

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

Confirming the story is not the same to leaking it.

Black birds are not white.
Do you want to pick holes in that statement too?

blanch152

frank8211 wrote: »

So that's the trick being used to hide them

To hide what?

They are testing loads of people in schools and the positivity rates are very low - below the rate in the general population.

meeeeh

eagle eye wrote: »

Black birds are not white.
Do you want to pick holes in that statement too?

I'm not picking holes. There is a huge difference between leaking and confirming the story. Every journalist has to confirm information they have is true and they would contact someone in government who would confirm that. It does not imply that that person leaked the information. However they can't deny something that is clearly true, no government official would be stupid enough to do that for relatively insignificant stuff.

That is normal procedure for journalists and that's why getting information from traditional media is a lot more reliable than getting info from Joe Blogs on Twitter.

average_runner

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not picking holes. There is a huge difference between leaking and confirming the story. Every journalist has to confirm information they have is true and they would contact someone in government who would confirm that. It does not imply that that person leaked the information.

That is normal procedure for journalists and that's why getting information from traditional media is a lot more reliable than getting info from Joe Blogs on Twitter.

Last time a journalist confirm its information was in the 90's

meeeeh

average_runner wrote: »

Last time a journalist confirm its information was in the 90's

One would hope not. It can be very expensive when they don't.

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

Occam's Razor applies here.

The reason that children don't feature in those little diagrams showing how one person spread the virus to 30 others in pubs, restaurants, family homes, gaa matches etc. is that children didn't spread the disease.

The virus is not spreading in controlled structured situations. It is spreading where people don't obey the rules.

Take the example earlier in this thread where it was stated that 30 teachers in a school showed up as close contacts on the app. That shouldn't happen if the school was following the rules laid down by the Department. Breaks should be staggered, social distancing between teachers at all times etc.

No. The reason is children are not being comprehensively tested.

irishblessing

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1019/1172454-teachers-schools-coronavirus/

"The primary teachers' union INTO has called for the publication of a detailed breakdown of the incidence of Covid-19 in schools amid what it said is increasing concern that public health measures to protect teachers are inadequate.

The union wants the exact number of school staff who have tested positive since September to be published with a breakdown by job and school type.

It has called for the publication of medical evidence to support the continuation of attendance in schools of staff who are pregnant or in the high-risk health category.

The union has also asked for a clear explanation of the difference between a close contact and casual contact in a school setting.

It said when a HSE risk assessment is conducted following confirmation of a positive case then there must be direct consultation with all staff associated with the class in which the case is based.

In a statement, INTO General Secretary John Boyle said the Government had failed to deliver a fit for purpose, fast-tracked, sector-specific testing and tracing system in the seven weeks since schools reopened.

The INTO has called for any moves to Level 4 to be accompanied by additional protective measures for primary and special schools.

These include the immediate banning of extra-curricular activities, the restriction of parents and guardians congregating at school grounds, a strict no-visitor policy for all schools, and the provision of funding to ensure that teachers and pupils can engage with remote learning."

I can hardly believe this shít-that they are only NOW calling for a provision of funding for remote learning. We on boards (and in real life with friends and family) have seen this coming miles off earlier this summer. It couldn't have been more obvious. But no. The government and Dept of education wasted all that time that could have been spent preparing instead they disappeared and/or stuck their heads in the sand.

I'm FUMING. I also feel very sorry for the horrible stress and anxiety and now illness that they thoughtlessly put students, families, and school staff through - especially those at higher risk who had NO choice unless they undertook homeschooling.

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

I'm not picking holes. There is a huge difference between leaking and confirming the story. Every journalist has to confirm information they have is true and they would contact someone in government who would confirm that. It does not imply that that person leaked the information. However they can't deny something that is clearly true, no government official would be stupid enough to do that for relatively insignificant stuff.

That is normal procedure for journalists and that's why getting information from traditional media is a lot more reliable than getting info from Joe Blogs on Twitter.

I've often heard/read news stories on every media platform where the information came from a source.

Also in this instance it was made perfectly clear that the source was a government one, just that there were multiple government sources.

Nothing to do with NPHET, no claim anywhere that an NPHET source said anything.

frank8211

blanch152 wrote: »

To hide what?

They are testing loads of people in schools and the positivity rates are very low - below the rate in the general population.

But when a case emerges in a school, the hse determines usually that there are no close contacts so no one to test. Like St Munchins today

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1019/1172454-teachers-schools-coronavirus/

"The primary teachers' union INTO has called for the publication of a detailed breakdown of the incidence of Covid-19 in schools amid what it said is increasing concern that public health measures to protect teachers are inadequate.

The union wants the exact number of school staff who have tested positive since September to be published with a breakdown by job and school type.

It has called for the publication of medical evidence to support the continuation of attendance in schools of staff who are pregnant or in the high-risk health category.

The union has also asked for a clear explanation of the difference between a close contact and casual contact in a school setting.

It said when a HSE risk assessment is conducted following confirmation of a positive case then there must be direct consultation with all staff associated with the class in which the case is based.

In a statement, INTO General Secretary John Boyle said the Government had failed to deliver a fit for purpose, fast-tracked, sector-specific testing and tracing system in the seven weeks since schools reopened.

The INTO has called for any moves to Level 4 to be accompanied by additional protective measures for primary and special schools.

These include the immediate banning of extra-curricular activities, the restriction of parents and guardians congregating at school grounds, a strict no-visitor policy for all schools, and the provision of funding to ensure that teachers and pupils can engage with remote learning."

I can hardly believe this shít-that they are only NOW calling for a provision of funding for remote learning. We on boards (and in real life with friends and family) have seen this coming miles off earlier this summer. It couldn't have been more obvious. But no. The government and Dept of education wasted all that time that could have been spent preparing instead they disappeared and/or stuck their heads in the sand.

I'm FUMING. I also feel very sorry for the horrible stress and anxiety and now illness that they thoughtlessly put students, families, and school staff through - especially those at higher risk who had NO choice unless they undertook homeschooling.

Wow, just wow, look at the entitlement culture from the INTO - see piece in bold.

They want more than people working in meat factories get, more than people working in hospitals get, more than people working in care homes, direct provision centres, prisons get etc. and all of those people are in much more dangerous situations than teachers.

People in the high-risk category are out there in the health service putting their lives at risk every day to save teachers and their families and everyone else, yet the teachers want special measures for themselves.

blanch152

frank8211 wrote: »

But when a case emerges in a school, the hse determines usually that there are no close contacts so no one to test. Like St Munchins today

To be honest, in many cases, if the school is doing its job properly, if all the protocols have been followed correctly, there shouldn't be any close contacts, certainly there should be no teacher-to-teacher transmission. If that is a problem in a school, the school isn't following the guidelines.

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, in many cases, if the school is doing its job properly, if all the protocols have been followed correctly, there shouldn't be any close contacts, certainly there should be no teacher-to-teacher transmission. If that is a problem in a school, the school isn't following the guidelines.

In some schools the guidelines are literally impossible to implement hence the use of the phrase "where possible" throughout.

Boggles

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, in many cases, if the school is doing its job properly, if all the protocols have been followed correctly, there shouldn't be any close contacts, certainly there should be no teacher-to-teacher transmission. If that is a problem in a school, the school isn't following the guidelines.

There doesn't seem to be, but that is down to the defined parameters of what is deemed a close contact.

An SNA that tests positive who gave intimated care to several children, those children are not deemed a close contact because she wore a mask, the policy also includes that those children and their parents are not informed.

So they bar is quite high and quite a sneaky one at that.

meeeeh

In fairness it seems schools are doing fairly good job considering the low rate of transmission.

eagle eye

Boggles wrote:

So they bar is quite high and quite a sneaky one at that.

Yeah, and if a member of that family tests positive then it goes down as an in the home case and I'd never tried back to the school.

meeeeh

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah, and if a member of that family tests positive then it goes down as an in the home case and I'd never tried back to the school.

Or how interesting. Are you processing the results or did you see any instructions how to classify data or did you just dream it up because that suits the narrative.

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

Wow, just wow, look at the entitlement culture from the INTO - see piece in bold.

They want more than people working in meat factories get, more than people working in hospitals get, more than people working in care homes, direct provision centres, prisons get etc. and all of those people are in much more dangerous situations than teachers.

People in the high-risk category are out there in the health service putting their lives at risk every day to save teachers and their families and everyone else, yet the teachers want special measures for themselves.

Great example of whatabouttery. Maybe they all deserve better.

Yeah, look at the entitlement! Did it ever occur to you that sometimes there actually is an entitlement? It's not the dirty word you make it out to be.

JimmyVik

meeeeh wrote: »

You won't get exact number because one child could transmit to 3 and another to none but there is a good breakdown bellow.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/coronavirus-schools-safer-than-wider-community-officials-say-1.4384292

Just answer the question. How many have nphet detected? Doesnt have to be the exact number. Just has top be the number that nphet reckon it is.
Do you think they arent recording those numbers?


Simple question. Should be easy to get the answer right?
But you cant. Its been hidden, so you cant get it.
Yet you think thats ok and make excuses for it.
There are no excuses for hiding that data. None.



So why do you think the data is being hidden?
Why all the resistance to informing the citizens of this country of the numbers?
Such an easy thing to do to release the dataset.
Fcuk if I got 5 minutes in the database I could get 50 different useful reports. Give me another hour and I could make it so you could get any stat you wanted out by clicking a few buttons.