Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118681546#Comment_118681546

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118683277#Comment_118683277

Google says 12 mins from car park to car park

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118712497#Comment_118712497

That's a catch 22, which I suspect you know (not without your own bias perhaps :) ). We don't keep proper accident statistic on cycling accidents, or injuries. They are both massively under reported but also mis-reported by merging hospital data with other stats. So an accident off road will be presented as on road cycling in some stats. Which will then be misreported in the media. That's why there a giant thread of cycling reporting in the media. Whereas there a lot of more reporting of accidents with cars. So its not similar comparison.

https://tinyurl.com/22vyu4j2

I didn't say all cyclists. I said "some" cyclists. Someone asked about speed. I just quoted the text of the fixed penalty fine, as thats how its phrased. Regardless itts not about speed, its about appropriate speed. Someone mentioned some people treat it like a race track I only agreed, that being my experience.

A speed limit is not a target. It is simply the maximum speed you are legally entitled to drive at on a stretch of road. You must drive at a speed appropriate to road and weather conditions, volumes of traffic present and likelihood of hazards. These are all vital ingredients which drivers must factor in every time they drive. When drivers ignore these factors, even travelling below a particular speed limit, they could very easily find themselves in a potential crash scenario. A small reduction in your speed could have a massive effect on the outcome for you or others.

How on earth is anyone meant to answer for you. Only you can do that. I certainly don't feel the need to defend bad drivers or cyclists, and I don't associate myself with either group. If you want to identify with or defend "all drivers or cyclists" thats nothing to do with my comments.

if you have links to good quality data on accidents stats in the Park, please share. There are self reported stats, which are not that useful.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713956#Comment_118713956

Well thats literally the driveway to the car park. Maybe your suggesting we drop granny and the walker off in the middle of the road, or park in the entrance and have a picnic right there in the entrance?

If we cycle it its 4 mins. So say 8min if granny or the toddlers break into a run. Or just bring bicycles for everyone. Maybe congestion is a factor. if we do it at 4am it could be quicker again.

Flinty997

How about a obstacle course to get into the park. if you can't get over it, you can't use the park.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713961#Comment_118713961

So you've no data to back up your assertion. You referred to cyclists travelling at an inappropriate speed. I'm trying to understand how you have decided that they were travelling at an inappropriate speed. Roughly, how fast were they going? Did they hit someone?

The cycle path along the road sees cyclists of differing speeds pretty much all of whom are travelling much slower than the adjacent traffic. But I don't see you referring to the drivers as travelling at an inappropriate speed so you'll understand my confusion. What makes a cyclists travelling at n inappropriate speed despite being slower than traffic right beside them?

What makes it inappropriate?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714110#Comment_118714110

1. I didn't pick that spot, I typed "ashtown castle" into Google, if I'd known you were going to be so anally retentive about the whole thing I'd have used exact measurements
2. Exact measurements: it is 90 metres from the nearest parking spot, hardly unrepresentative of the actual journey times
3. When you manage to get a space near the "driveway to the car park", how do you manage to make it to the actual amenities? Do you teleport there, or do you....ummmmmm....I dunno....maybe walk there?
4. Bottom line: You called it a 40 minute walk, round trip. It's not even a 15 minute walk each way.
5. I count 125 parking spots there. How many should be provided, in your opinion?
6. We were primarily talking about kids and toddlers when the issue of Ashtown Castle came up....it was you who brought up Granny and her walker. She'll be doing well to make it round the hedge maze, but I'd say she's great craic on the slides
7. There is a finite amount of parking available everywhere. If you can't get parking, instead of taking responsibility that you didn't get there earlier enough, sucking it up and going somewhere else, your solution is to make the car park bigger....correct? a) how much bigger, b) what happens when the bigger car park gets full.....go bigger again? c) where does this end?
8. Yes, dropping those with limited mobility off while you go park the car is a thing that has been done for decades. I've no idea what your issue is with doing just that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714171#Comment_118714171

Translation "waaaaahhhhh wahhhhhhhh, I didn't get to park right outside my destination like some sort of moviestar.....woe is me, won't someone think of the fictional horde of grannies in wheelchairs who can't move a total of *checks notes* 92 metres....waaaaaahhhhhhhh!"

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714208#Comment_118714208

More like you've no data for your bias. Least I proved a link to a study, you provided diddly.

Faster then me on the bike, around 15kmph, faster than cars on the road doing around 30kmph. I think that excessive on a cycle/footpath passing other cyclists (and pedestrians) with no margin for error. Faster then me in the car.

I didn't refer to drivers inappropriate speed because we were talking about cyclists. I'm not defending drivers. That's a false equivalence.

The argument here is that the park is for people walking around, family, children. These even closed roads to facilitate this. Somewhat contradictory we have no problem with high speed cycling through the same pedestrians, families and children, or tourists on leisurely cycle. No bias there at all.

Obviously struck a nerve with this one. We'll see a 5% jump in Strava times this evening.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714272#Comment_118714272

Context...

its been said it never busy except if there's an event on, or at the hottest day of the summer. I just pointed out its been full more than once in the middle of winter very much off peak. I was just pointing out there's all types of people using the park facilities, often with limited mobility. Often needing supervision, dropping off isn't always possible.

If you are going to guesstimate journey times to the best case scenario (not even into the car park in this case) you can hardly complain if some takes a more realistic measurement, even a worst case scenario.

If you only want to suit yourself no compromises fine. OPW has been here many times before and had to roll back due to public and political pressure. They've done this already with the roll back of cul de sac on North road back to one way. Closed gates only to have to reopen them.

As for the visitor centre parking. They could validate parking, so only those using the facilities can park there. No ones likely to pay for parking if they didn't were going there specifically for the facilities there. If they are going for a walk or unloading a bike they will go elsewhere.

Wikidy

But no matter what they do inside the park, I am not keen on cycling the short distance from the Halfway house to the Ashtown Gate, especially with kids.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713956#Comment_118713956

Again. Small children walk more slowly. Especially on the return leg.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714312#Comment_118714312

LOL.

I suggest you a new thread on needy entitled wheelchair users. Bound to be popular.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714635#Comment_118714635

its been said it never busy except if there's an event on, or at the hottest day of the summer. I just pointed out its been full more than once in the middle of winter very much off peak. 

It has been said that the entire park, not just Ashtown Castle car park, is only ever really busy when events are taking place. You pointed out that one particular corner of the park, one car park, was full on a couple of occasions when that might be the most attractive corner of the park due to the amenities available at that time. There's a huge difference between those sentences and what you're claiming. It's not like you can sit and have a picnic when the grass is wet, better stick to the enclosed areas with hot drinks, toilets etc.

Your failure to answer the other questions asked of you speaks volumes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714745#Comment_118714745

Jaysus, this granny has gone from a walker to a wheelchair in a matter of hours. I'd suggest you have bigger issues than getting parking near the playground.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714708#Comment_118714708

Fair enough. Get up earlier, so, or go somewhere else.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714745#Comment_118714745

Question: Were all the wheelchair spots taken up on those times the car park was full?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714910#Comment_118714910

Yes.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714896#Comment_118714896

Some wheelchair users can walk a short distance, or use a rollator. You've a very blinkered view point.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714887#Comment_118714887

You're conflating different issues into one.

Expecting someone to answer a vexatious strawman, says more about the person asking the question.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714485#Comment_118714485

ok so let's look at this piece by piece:

More like you've no data for your bias. Least I proved a link to a study, you provided diddly.

You provided a link to a study which goes nowhere towards backing up your claim that some cyclists travel at inappropriate speeds in the park. In fact, you still have not defined what you believe is an inappropriate speed.

Faster then me on the bike, around 15kmph, faster than cars on the road doing around 30kmph. I think that excessive on a cycle/footpath passing other cyclists (and pedestrians) with no margin for error. Faster then me in the car.

Who is talking about cyclists on the footpath? The discussion is about cyclists in the cycle lane or on a road. The old CA cycle path is long gone. Anyone in recent times I've seen cycling on a footpath are children or elderly people at a snails pace. I don't recall seeing anyone else.

As for cars doing 30km/h, the reality is that most drivers were not abiding by the 50km/h limit weren't which is why there have been tantrums in some circles over the new speed limits.

I didn't refer to drivers inappropriate speed because we were talking about cyclists. I'm not defending drivers. That's a false equivalence.

You were making the allegation about some cyclists travelling at inappropriate speeds and I challenged you to back it up (which you have yet to do) and for comparative purposes why you weren't mentioning drivers who travel along the same stretch of tarmac at far greater speeds than anynone one a bike. it is not a false equivalence - surely the people put at risk by the dangerous cyclist are more likely to face injury from drivers travelling at a greater speed?

The argument here is that the park is for people walking around, family, children. These even closed roads to facilitate this. Somewhat contradictory we have no problem with high speed cycling through the same pedestrians, families and children, or tourists on leisurely cycle. No bias there at all.

Where did I mention it is ok to cycle through pedestrians?

Obviously struck a nerve with this one. We'll see a 5% jump in Strava times this evening.

My nerves are fine, thanks.

Flinty997

I see. You want me to show you the data that I've demonstrated isn't collected. The theory being if there's no data on something it doesn't exist. Makes sense.

I quoted the Garda statement on their definition on inappropriate speed. Do you not believe the Garda? How about Richmond Park example.

The speed limit on the outer roadway is 20mph. It applies to all road users. Sensible speeds create a more welcoming environment for everyone.

The speed limit on the quietway is 10mph. Please pay special attention to children, walkers and learner cyclists who frequent this mostly car-free area which runs through the centre of the park between Ham Cross and Sheen Cross.

Never race or time trial. Doing so creates a shorter time for you to react to hazards, less time for others to see you, and you are likely to exceed the speed limit. If you want to ride within the speed limit without being impeded by so much traffic, consider visiting the park when its roads are quieter.

They actually banned cyclists for a while.

Poor obedience with regards to Park bylaws was also a cited issue: ‘Sports cyclists were gauged as reaching up to 34mph on several occasions.’ Richmond Park has a speed limit for bicycles of 20mph, and cyclists have historically been fined for being recorded over this limit.

The letter also mentions fast pelotons of riders passing ‘less experienced cyclists on shopping bikes with no safety helmets.’

They put speed cameras on the cyclists in case anyone's wondering. But there no speeding defined in law for cyclists. But thats a whole different issue.

Maybe you'll back up your allegation that drivers speed in the phoenix park, with some links to some peer reviewed studies that have captured statistics on speeding in the phoenix park, captured in the last 12 months.

em_cat

I was in the park today as per usual around mid day & no one, not even the park rangers, obeyed the new speed limit. Nor was there a Garda in sight attempting to enforce it.

The new 30kph along Chesterfield Ave is frustrating tbh.

In normal circumstances I can see a need for the 30kph and on residential roads & I support it.

I also support improved cycling infrastructure in the park, however forgetting that the park is to be accessed for all is beginning to feel like a siege on anyone who dares to use a car to get there.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714904#Comment_118714904

Ah jaysus. You should have just told us you never go to the park and you're only on this thread for a row, could have saved us all some time.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715628#Comment_118715628

I expect some Cinderella period when they enforce it for a little while then go back to ignoring it.

It is habit though. We have lot of driver aids these days to stick to limits if people want to.

I don't think its a siege. Discouraging car use is inevitable. Its unsustainable.

Shifty summed up it nicely by telling us just to go away somewhere else. So we've basically done that a lot more often.

Phil.x

I've been hitting 46km/h on they pushbike this week on Chesterfield avenue, much faster than the speed limit and most cars, I love how I'm above the law!!

30km is way too slow for that road. 50 was actually too slow also. It should be 60 at the very least

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715596#Comment_118715596

What Garda statement did you link? I just missed it

The new parking spots along the North road are great, well marked out too, which means (hopefully) no crappy parking!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715806#Comment_118715806

Yup, speeding doesn't apply to bicycles :)

There are fixed penalty fines, but barely enforced. :)

Flinty997

I came through tonight just to see what it was like. No one doing 30. Very weird in the dark and almost no cars. Passed by one bike. They are burning off the old road markings. Interesting to see how it works out.