How will schools be able to go back in September?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

THis point could equally apply to every person on this thread who has said schools are not willing to be reopened and that nothing is being done.

I didn't see anyone saying that here.

I see a lot of ideas, options and plenty of resistance to change but maybe I need to re-read the thread.

Sammy2012

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The Dept of Education is working regularly with a number of different groups including the parents council and NPHET at the moment.

Just because you didn't get a circular on it doesn't mean it's not happening.

They are looking at several proposals to get the schools back in September, I presume they won't issue concrete guidelines until these have been ironed out.

Well the sooner they get on with issuing guidelines the sooner schools can start planning reopening.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I didn't see anyone saying that here.

I see a lot of ideas, options and plenty of resistance to change but maybe I need to re-read the thread.

The only person I see going on about resistance to change is you, pushing that idea down the road You keep saying it over and over despite the fact teachers keep saying they are happy to go back. But you have one idea and as as Maggie says are not for changing.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Well the sooner they get on with issuing guidelines the sooner schools can start planning reopening.

I'd say any guidelines will be very fluid (depending on cases and testing etc) so will probably be quite close to September before there's anything solid released.

If things keep going as they are then there might only be minimal changes and that would probably be just to satisfy insurance companies.

If we had a couple of months of zero community transmission (here's hoping) then we could return to normal with a close eye on new illness policies, hygiene standards and fast testing/contact tracing.

Heres hoping anyway!

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

The only person I see going on about resistance to change is you, pushing that idea down the road You keep saying it over and over despite the fact teachers keep saying they are happy to go back. But you have one idea and as as Maggie says are not for changing.

I never once said it's because teachers won't go back. I said if they decide for themselves that they can't go back (through their own personal choice).

Punctuation and grammar who's Maggie?

Higgins5473

daydorunrun wrote: »

Because somebody is called out saying they can't be as busy as they claim because they spend so much time on boards. I just find you thanking that calling out is ironic given your impressive posting record.

Unless the poster was on banging their own drum about their home schooling capabilities whilst juggling a job also then your post is a bit odd.

iamwhoiam

The rest of Europe will probably be back at school doing what they do best while the Department here still dither and write reports and find stumbling blocks

ldy4mxonucwsq6

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The rest of Europe will probably be back at school doing what they do best while the Department here still dither and write reports and find stumbling blocks

Well given the reaction here I'd say you're probably right about that.

The difference is that it won't be tolerated any more, they need to get their act together.

selectamatic

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Getting a sub will always be harder than placing someone in a permanent position, there is an excess of qualified teachers currently available.

More and more far exceeding those retiring are graduating every year. They'll be more than happy to fill the positions for those who choose not to work.

Certainly didn't appear to be an excess of unemployed primary teachers looking for work or graduates in the last few years.

It was extremely hard get subs and a number of schools in Dublin struggled massively with filling maternity leave positions. So I dunno where you're getting this from.

There were lots of graduates and a bit of a surplus about 6 or 7 years ago but that has long since changed.

As pointed out already many subject areas at secondary level are struggling big time with finding teachers too.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

If teachers won't or can't return through their own choice and there aren't enough to fill those positions then yes they will have to do some new thinking in the interim.

I don't think it would be as bad as having nobody to teach at all, certainly not a disaster.

I'm an unqualified brain surgeon. Would you like me to perform a lobotomy on you?

downthemiddle

Dayo93 wrote: »

The point has been driven home here , unqualified teachers cannot teach children , so we cannot have mass home schooling , get the schools back open in September , the kids are the ones suffering here ...

You'll struggle to find a teacher anywhere in the country who would prefer what they are doing at the moment to direct contact with their students. Teachers want schools to reopen. However there are genuine concerns about how it can be done in a safe environment. School communities are complex. Rest assured, though, that principals are already exploring ways of maximising pupil numbers within current guidelines. The issue is nobody knows what the guidelines will be in September making planning more difficult.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

selectamatic wrote: »

Certainly didn't appear to be an excess of unemployed primary teachers looking for work or graduates in the last few years.

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

There are no jobs for hundreds of teaching graduates every year along with redeployment of surplus existing teachers too.

If the report is correct then it's good news for class sizes (which are naturally decreasing due to less students/population commencing primary now anyway), that's if the infrastructure can keep up with the growth.

Of course the report was rubbished by the unions, but thats to be expected.

Jim Root

Could we not do a few hours on a Saturday morning?

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

There are no jobs for hundreds of teaching graduates every year along with redeployment of surplus existing teachers too.

If the report is correct then it's good news for class sizes, that's if the infrastructure can keep up with the growth.

Of course the report was rubbished by the unions, but thats to be expected.

Perhaps you should read the report again.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the report again.

I have read it and what posters are saying here supports that there's too many teachers for the number of positions available.

Team that with the fact that very few will be emigrating in the next while and a lot abroad will have returned. We'll have a huge pool of qualified teachers available.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

It's one possibility indicated in a submission that's been made to the Department of Education outlining plans to reopen schools in September.

Submitted by whom?

daydorunrun

downthemiddle wrote: »

I'm an unqualified brain surgeon. Would you like me to perform a lobotomy on you?

Most ridiculous analogy winner 2020.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

I mentioned this and it is not becuase of an over abundance of teachers though I do expect you to disagree as you have such an intimate knowledge of the educaiton system in this country unlike the teachers who work in schools. It has to do with their subject choices for teaching in secondary schools and how the principals choose the teachers to cover subjects.

There has been a shortage of primary teachers for a number of years as we cannot get substitute teachers for long or short contracts or maternity leave cover and has proven a problem for at least 4 years.

kandr10

I love this thread.

In a way I’m hoping the guidelines aren’t released too soon cos I could do with another few months of this thread going round in circles. Every so often a sensible argument around the difficulties of reopening schools and people chip in making me feel I’m not going mad. Then someone jumps on and says they need to just open the schools up tomorrow to full capacity and see what happens cos the economy is grinding to a halt. Then we’re back to square one.

Lovely stuff.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I have read it and what posters are saying here supports that there's too many teachers for the number of positions available.

Team that with the fact that very few will be emigrating in the next while and a lot abroad will have returned. We'll have a huge pool of qualified teachers available.

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

jrosen

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

khalessi

downthemiddle wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

Its ok Fringe rewrote it because they were wrong

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

You think that if a teacher decides to leave their post that there won't be someone eager waiting to fill it immediately?

My point is that there would be no shortage of available teachers right now if they were needed.

Make progress or make excuses.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

Its ok Fringe rewrote it because they were wrong

You're grasping a straws now, what are you talking about?

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

Well it depends on the roll offered, some will be a temp position or a fixed term but they are hard to fill so if they can, primary schools will get a sub until the position if filled properly, but subs are like hens teeth too these days. We had a vacancy advertised since the holidays last year and only filled it in February. 4 or 5 years ago I applied for a Masters in Special Ed and havent been able to do it as we cant get cover for my days off, so the shortages are going on at least that long.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

You're grasping a straws now, what are you talking about?

Its a joke, my god did you get lobotomised:D
Sheesh humour is allowed

kandr10

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

It depends on the reason why the post opened up in the school. For example, if a teacher goes on career break, the person filling in would be a temp as it’s assumed that the original teacher would be back (as in other professions, I guess). Or if a teacher is job sharing in another school, same thing would apply. You can also have a situation where a temp teacher is working a few years in a school trying to build up to permanency and maybe the school is given an extra teacher due to increased numbers. In this case it would be a permanent position but if the temp who is there has not got their full service done as a temp they would most likely lose out on this position to an outsider.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

There is panel of subs for primary school and there are still shortages

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

You think that if a teacher decides to leave their post that there won't be someone eager waiting to fill it immediately?

My point is that there would be no shortage of available teachers right now if they were needed.

Make progress or make excuses.

I don't think. I know from first hand experience what the situation is. I hate to burst your bubble but you don't have a point.
I'll repeat my question,it is quite a simple one. Where in the report does it project a huge pool of teachers for 2021?