How will schools be able to go back in September?

downthemiddle

downthemiddle wrote: »

I’m assuming you are being deliberately obtuse at this stage. However for the benefit of all the experts who haven’t read the document I’ll try once again.
At primary level when a teacher is absent, covid or otherwise,it has become common practice to split the class amongst other classes. With pods and bubbles this is no longer acceptable. The DES have created 180 positions to cover these absences in just over 400 schools. The other 2900 schools will have to make alternative arrangements.
The DES have instructed schools, when a sub is not available, to use Special Education Teachers to cover these absences. I believe this is ethically and morally wrong.
Perhaps those advocates for the DES plan for returning to school can explain why this is acceptable.

So what’s your solution then if not to leave schools closed? Compromises and difficult choices will be required. But the alternative is not to open the schools at all

Lillyfae

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

What would be your main concerns for schools returning in the Irish context?

People who don't want them to be opening very loosely following guidelines hoping that there will be another outbreak. Or not bothering at all so they can point the finger and say "I told you so"

xhomelezz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Contacts within a class will be isolated. May be possible to create pods within a class also but will be location dependent. The suggestion however is that a single case will take out a school

So you'll have 30 kids in class, 1 m SD if lucky, no proper air ventilation, no masks sitting there for 40 minutes. You split them to say 6 pods by 5 students. One of them will be positive in that environment.. how many out of 30 have a chance to contract virus? 1 pod?? You can send home all of them.

lulublue22

Deleted User wrote: »

Contacts within a class will be isolated. May be possible to create pods within a class also but will be location dependent. The suggestion however is that a single case will take out a school

I’m not sure where you are getting a single case could take out a school ? I would expect if covid is as transmissible as public health experts claim , our class size and poorly ventilated classes then it will take out a class. I presume after that it’s potential to spread will depend on factors such as child on school transport , siblings etc at primary. In secondary movement across pods due to subject choice may result in a wider spread.? who knows.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Please do explain?

Because currently we are averaging just over 24 hours, and have capacity to complete 100k per week. Because the measures that remain in place and the wider public awareness will prevent the type of surge seen in March. Less opportunity for infections less infections. Because the same measures that reduce COVID will also reduce other respiratory infection such has already been seen in the Australian flu season.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-23/coronavirus-restrictions-cause-flu-cases-to-drop-australia/12480190

#Science

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’m not sure where you are getting a single case could take out a school ? I would expect if covid is as transmissible as public health experts claim , our class size and poorly ventilated classes then it will take out a class. I presume after that it’s potential to spread will depend on factors such as child on school transport , siblings etc at primary. In secondary movement across pods due to subject choice may result in a wider spread.? who knows.

The suggestion being made here was one case could take out an entire school. I was arguing it doesn’t need to. Schools will need to keep detailed records though

Murple

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-52550470

According to this, they have groups of 12 children.

"Danish education law stipulates a maximum class size of 28 students for primary and lower secondary schools." That's not far off our numbers.

https://pure.au.dk/ws/files/32351405/bingley-jensen-walker-classsize-asb.pdf

So we need double the capacity to follow the Danish model.

Reading the article you linked, you'll find that the maximum is 28 (there is no maximum in this country) but generally a new class is started at 24 pupils. That's why they have 12 pupils in as half the class. In this country, 28 would be considered 'one of the smaller classes' rather than the biggest a class could get.

khalessi

lulublue22 wrote: »

Yes because the only illness any teacher is going to get will be covid. :rolleyes:
If you think supervision of classes by SET is not going to be necessary you are deluded.

Speaking as an SET in the last 7 years of working in thise area I can think of only one year where I wasn't out covering classes a few days a week, whether for the day or for a few hours, because subs were not available.

It will be interesting to see how much that increases this coming year.

Loafing Oaf

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’m not sure where you are getting a single case could take out a school ? I would expect if covid is as transmissible as public health experts claim , our class size and poorly ventilated classes then it will take out a class. I presume after that it’s potential to spread will depend on factors such as child on school transport , siblings etc at primary. In secondary movement across pods due to subject choice may result in a wider spread.? who knows.

Well if every teacher who had been teaching that child over the previous week had to self-isolate you could easily be talking about a quarter to a third of the school's staff. I'd say you may as well close the school in that scenario...

lulublue22

Lillyfae wrote: »

People who don't want them to be opening very loosely following guidelines hoping that there will be another outbreak. Or not bothering at all so they can point the finger and say "I told you so"

I sincerely hope that’s not directed at teachers. Not alone do I have reason to ensure to the best of my ability that I don’t bring covid into my home I also enjoy a very positive relationship with the children I teach. I would personally be very concerned for any of the children I teach and would do everything in my power to mitigate the risk of covid in my class / school. I mean really not implement guidelines which admittedly are ****e in the hope of being able to say I told you so. Despite public opinion schools and teachers will rise to the challenge as Leo so eloquently put it. We always do. Perhaps people can focus on the I’m going on holidays brigade cos I deserve it . If schools close it won’t be due to any half arse attempts by teachers. I think I’ve heard it all now.

scrubs33

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The contacts at 2nd level aren't manageable.

Johnny in first year shares a room with 23 classmates, he has 30 different classmates across his options, he shares a room with 8 different teachers each day and 15 in total during the week, those teachers then teach their classes (meeting on average 150 students each week themselves), he walks the corridors between each class, eats in the canteen, shares toilet facilties and arrives on a bus with 55 other students from his locality each morning.

Trace that

Leaving Cert Maths Higher Level 2022 Question 1:D:D

Murple

Lillyfae wrote: »

People who don't want them to be opening very loosely following guidelines hoping that there will be another outbreak. Or not bothering at all so they can point the finger and say "I told you so"

So if there is an outbreak in a school, you'll be placing the blame on the teachers and the school as it will have been their fault for not following guidelines.
You actually think that teachers will risk the health of their class, themselves and their own family just "so they can point the finger and say 'I told you so'"? Did you think that through before you posted it?

xhomelezz

Just after seeing U-turn on PUP payments and travel abroad. Let's see for how long this plan will last..

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

A contact is 15 minutes at 2 meters. As long as sanitation is good why would it be different for secondary school kids?

Not all the time

In Germany there is a case of someone getting it from someone passing the salt

In China

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-woman-gave-coronavirus-to-71-people-by-doing-this/ar-BB16GeIH

ldy4mxonucwsq6

kingbhome wrote: »

Is it possible that if one kid gets covid in school, the school gets closer down and anyone in that class or has had close contact with that kid will all have to be taken to quarantine, and all definitely vaccinated!

School won't close unless it's deemed necessary and directed to by Health authorities.

Contacts can be tested.

There is no vaccine as yet and if/when there is it will likely be needed before they come in contact with a case and obviously by consent.

Lillyfae

lulublue22 wrote: »

I sincerely hope that’s not directed at teachers. Not alone do I have reason to ensure to the best of my ability that I don’t bring covid into my home I also enjoy a very positive relationship with the children I teach. I would personally be very concerned for any of the children I teach and would do everything in my power to mitigate the risk of covid in my class / school. I mean really not implement guidelines which admittedly are ****e in the hope of being able to say I told you so. Despite public opinion schools and teachers will rise to the challenge as Leo so eloquently put it. We always do. Perhaps people can focus on the I’m going on holidays brigade cos I deserve it . If schools close it won’t be due to any half arse attempts by teachers. I think I’ve heard it all now.

Murple wrote: »

So if there is an outbreak in a school, you'll be placing the blame on the teachers and the school as it will have been their fault for not following guidelines.
You actually think that teachers will risk the health of their class, themselves and their own family just "so they can point the finger and say 'I told you so'"? Did you think that through before you posted it?

I have not mentioned teachers. There are other responsible parties. Parents, principals, BoM. It's been referenced here. There are schools who have done no preparation whatsoever.

lulublue22

Deleted User wrote: »

The suggestion being made here was one case could take out an entire school. I was arguing it doesn’t need to. Schools will need to keep detailed records though

That will depend on the availability and turn around of testing. You mentioned 24 hours a family member was waiting 48 hours last week. 48 h now when cases and demand are realtively low don’t inspire me with confidence. On the other hand perhaps capacity is there and will be ramped up for the winter months.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Lillyfae wrote: »

There are schools who have done no preparation whatsoever.

Name the schools

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

People who don't want them to be opening very loosely following guidelines hoping that there will be another outbreak. Or not bothering at all so they can point the finger and say "I told you so"

PLease explain who would those people be?

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

I have not mentioned teachers. There are other responsible parties. Parents, principals, BoM. It's been referenced here. There are schools who have done no preparation whatsoever.

WHich schools have done no prep and when did they contact the Netherlands to let you know?

lulublue22

Lillyfae wrote: »

I have not mentioned teachers. There are other responsible parties. Parents, principals, BoM. It's been referenced here. There are schools who have done no preparation whatsoever.

So basically not teachers but principals, BOM ( who are made up of patents teachers and principal) and parents. Seriously I’ve heard it all - what stakeholders in their right mind won’t implement guidelines to the best of their ability in the middle of a pandemic so that they can say I told you so.

Murple

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If we have 180 teachers out sick with suspected Covid we have a major problem, all schools will be closed indefinitely.

You do know that teachers have a variety of reasons why they might be on sick leave/ absent other than Covid - tummy bug, kidney infection, back pain, urgent medical procedure/appointment, miscarriage, bereavement, car accident, severe migraine, flare up of an existing condition such as MS or rheumatoid arthritis, injury after a fall... I know it's so inconsiderate of teachers not to arrange all these for existing holiday times but you know, we'll do anything not to have to go to work.

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

Not all the time

In Germany there is a case of someone getting it from someone passing the salt

In China

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-woman-gave-coronavirus-to-71-people-by-doing-this/ar-BB16GeIH

Short of locking everyone in their homes, we can’t eliminate all opportunities for infection, so we go after the most likely- droplets at close contact and /or left on surfaces for short periods through poor sanitation. Make a large impact on these and the remainder do not cause a major issue

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Short of locking everyone in their homes, we can’t eliminate all opportunities for infection, so we go after the most likely- droplets at close contact and /or left on surfaces for short periods through poor sanitation. Make a large impact on these and the remainder do not cause a major issue

Masks a must I think we can agree

Lillyfae

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Name the schools

I know you're a latecomer to the thread, but have a read over it. I'm not going back through to find it for you, but iirc it was about a week ago. The principal told their vice principal and staff that they would be doing no organizing of anything, and it was up to them.

To others, I'm not going to multi-quote you, but it is already happening. From people popping off to Portugal for a few weeks holidays, to going to work with mild symptoms, to having house parties, to being pressured by employers to get back in the office when 100% of the work can be done at home. Why would the school environment be any different?

jimmytwotimes 2013

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Masks a must I think we can agree

Indoor where social distancing cannot be maintained. Not practical for young kids however

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

If it’s just a sniffle it will be gone in 48 hours. If it’s more that that shouldn’t be in school anyway

Do you professionally bury posts and say it'll be grand or is it just a hobby?

You are not a doctor. Telling people to go into work with a "sniffle" during a pandemic where there is proven asymptomatic transmission and large range of severity of illness and symptoms is highly irresponsible.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Lillyfae wrote: »

I know you're a latecomer to the thread, but have a read over it. I'm not going back through to find it for you, but iirc it was about a week ago. The principal told their vice principal and staff that they would be doing no organizing of anything, and it was up to them.

To others, I'm not going to multi-quote you, but it is already happening. From people popping off to Portugal for a few weeks holidays, to going to work with mild symptoms, to having house parties, to being pressured by employers to get back in the office when 100% of the work can be done at home. Why would the school environment be any different?

I'm not late to this thread, drop in and out.

So a random anonymous post not naming a school or the school was named?

Alrigghtythen

xhomelezz wrote: »

So you'll have 30 kids in class, 1 m SD if lucky, no proper air ventilation, no masks sitting there for 40 minutes. You split them to say 6 pods by 5 students. One of them will be positive in that environment.. how many out of 30 have a chance to contract virus? 1 pod?? You can send home all of them.

Why have none of these classroom ventilation?

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Because currently we are averaging just over 24 hours,

Really? Have you a link for that?

The HSE say

Most people will get their test results back within 3 days, but it can take longer.

Obviously people in a hospital get them far quicker.

12-24 hours according to the HSE.

So what is the actual turnaround of a community test in Ireland now?

Deleted User wrote: »

Because the measures that remain in place and the wider public awareness will prevent the type of surge seen in March. Less opportunity for infections less infections. Because the same measures that reduce COVID will also reduce other respiratory infection such has already been seen in the Australian flu season.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-23/coronavirus-restrictions-cause-flu-cases-to-drop-australia/12480190

#Science

But the measures that contributed to flu decline in Australia will not remain in place here.

Did you actually read your link?

Closing schools, maintaining physical distancing and boosting hand hygiene have all contributed to the massive decline in flu diagnoses and deaths.

"The main reasons are due to social distancing, as influenza is spread just like COVID-19 is," Professor Barr said.

"And the closure of schools probably also has a big part in the transmission of the flu in a normal season."

We are fully opening schools coming into flu season.

Also the vast vast amount of symptoms that will require testing are not caused by the Flu.

#science