How will schools be able to go back in September?

downthemiddle

Deleted User wrote: »

Practical compromises have to be made.

The "practical compromise" that the DES has made is to sacrifice the learning of the most vulnerable in our school communities. They have employed 180 extra teachers at primary level to cover teachers on sick leave. This will provide cover for approximately 420 schools out of 3,305. The other schools are bound by
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0045_2020.pdf
This states that if a school is unable to find substitute cover 'For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence.'
Schools are being instructed to remove support from children with Special Educational Needs to cover classes. What a wonderful compromise.

Lillyfae

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They're back since the 8 june and we're still thinking

8th of June full time for primary schools, was 50/50 since May and daycares were back full time since May aswell. And I've said it before, children of front line workers were never off.

Add to that the secondary and vocational school exams all went ahead as planned.

Boggles

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They're back since the 8 june and we're still thinking

Rivm has some interesting reading on primary schools

They did, 50% attendance, rotating seems to be the plan for post primary going forward.

#science

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

8th of June full time for primary schools, was 50/50 since May and daycares were back full time since May aswell. And I've said it before, children of front line workers were never off.

Add to that the secondary and vocational school exams all went ahead as planned.

Holland are seeing a resurgence of the virus, and school openings will be in doubt if they can't control it.

Lillyfae

Boggles wrote: »

The Dutch plan for reopening which will be published shortly, but they are most certainly going the blended learning route with very strict social distancing measures.

Plan for reopening?? They're already back!! Albeit the last 2 weeks the children have been enjoying their summer camps or helping to pack up for their caravanning trips.

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

Plan for reopening?? They're already back!! Albeit the last 2 weeks the children have been enjoying their summer camps or helping to pack up for their caravanning trips.

Sorry I am quoting the Minister for Education for Holland who made a statement on it yesterday evening. She doesn't seem to think so.

Who is your source?

wirelessdude01

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Didn't the Department draw up plans for 24 students in 7m x 7m rooms (which is impossible unless you consider all students to be infinitesimal small particles of mass)?

What happens if, as is often the case, the class exceeds 24?

Who decides which 6 leave in a class of 30?

The room layouts from the department are farcical. Students stuffed into corners, up against windows and doors that will have to be open full time to allow some form of ventilation, children sitting with the end legs of tables between their legs and no way to sit properly at the table as they can't pull their chair in. Also every floor plan makes the assumption that the teacher seems to sit at their desk for the day. No room even left to teach from the top of the room around the IWB. Silly silly stuff.

caveat emptor

downthemiddle wrote: »

The "practical compromise" that the DES has made is to sacrifice the learning of the most vulnerable in our school communities. They have employed 180 extra teachers at primary level to cover teachers on sick leave. This will provide cover for approximately 420 schools out of 3,305. The other schools are bound by
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0045_2020.pdf
This states that if a school is unable to find substitute cover 'For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence.'
Schools are being instructed to remove support from children with Special Educational Needs to cover classes. What a wonderful compromise.

I heard on this that there will be a "pool" of substitute teachers which schools in each area / region can draw from when needed.

This sounds absolutely fvcking crazy after what we learned from the Nursing home scandal and agency staff.?

Do I have that wrong?

Peter Flynt

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The room layouts from the department are farcical. Students stuffed into corners, up against windows and doors that will have to be open full time to allow some form of ventilation, children sitting with the end legs of tables between their legs and no way to sit properly at the table as they can't pull their chair in. Also every floor plan makes the assumption that the teacher seems to sit at their desk for the day. No room even left to teach from the top of the room around the IWB. Silly silly stuff.

The plans had the teacher's desk stuck against the whiteboard with the teacher effectively having to stand, like a mannequin, in the same spot for the entire duration of the day.

jimmytwotimes 2013

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The room layouts from the department are farcical. Students stuffed into corners, up against windows and doors that will have to be open full time to allow some form of ventilation, children sitting with the end legs of tables between their legs and no way to sit properly at the table as they can't pull their chair in. Also every floor plan makes the assumption that the teacher seems to sit at their desk for the day. No room even left to teach from the top of the room around the IWB. Silly silly stuff.

Some length of an arm needed to write on the board too

DesignerDublin

There may be lots of absences, will every runny nose or cough be sent home? I have 3 kids, during winter at least one always has some sort of cold. This is going to be challenging.

wirelessdude01

caveat emptor wrote: »

I heard on this that there will be a "pool" of substitute teachers which schools in each area / region can draw from when needed.

This sounds absolutely fvcking crazy after what we learned from the Nursing home scandal and agency staff.?

Do I have that wrong?

58 of them nationwide. Approx 3.5 teachers per panel.

caveat emptor

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

58 of them nationwide. Approx 3.5 teachers per panel.

and there's the bubble burst.
a pool of people that have to cover for every teacher that gets a sniffle in winter.
intermingling between schools in different areas.

Sounds like a good plan.

swear we knew nothing about public health.

lulublue22

downthemiddle wrote: »

The "practical compromise" that the DES has made is to sacrifice the learning of the most vulnerable in our school communities. They have employed 180 extra teachers at primary level to cover teachers on sick leave. This will provide cover for approximately 420 schools out of 3,305. The other schools are bound by
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0045_2020.pdf
This states that if a school is unable to find substitute cover 'For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence.'
Schools are being instructed to remove support from children with Special Educational Needs to cover classes. What a wonderful compromise.

This really annoys me - those children who need support the most to do without. For all the talk re the effect on children’s education there doesn’t seem to be any consideration given to those vulnerable children. SET covering classes is a disgrace.

Lillyfae

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry I am quoting the Minister for Education for Holland who made a statement on it yesterday evening. She doesn't seem to think so.

Who is your source?

It's funny that wasn't on the news yesterday, here in the Netherlands.

seamus

Lillyfae wrote: »

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

It really seems like our principals have been doing nothing to prepare.

Yes, the guidelines are coming way too late, but they also don't contain anything unexpected. You can go back on this thread and see that I predicted basically all of the measures more than a month ago. And I'm not especially clever, half of the country knew what would be required, so there's no good reason why schools couldn't prepare for the return without the guidelines.

At this stage they should only needs to place final orders for equipment, arrange building work and schedule staff training. Planning one-way systems, class layouts, ingress/egress protocols, etc should have been done by the principals weeks ago; anyone with a shred of competence predicted what would be required before the school year had even ended.

downthemiddle

lulublue22 wrote: »

This really annoys me - those children who need support the most to do without. For all the talk re the effect on children’s education there doesn’t seem to be any consideration given to those vulnerable children. SET covering classes is a disgrace.

This is the crux of the issue. This plan has nothing to do with children returning to education safely. It is an economic decision.
The DES are sacrificing our most vulnerable at a time when they will need support more than ever.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Didn't the Department draw up plans for 24 students in 7m x 7m rooms (which is impossible unless you consider all students to be infinitesimal small particles of mass)?

What happens if, as is often the case, the class exceeds 24?

Who decides which 6 leave in a class of 30?

I think the 6 are to be rotated and they are to watch a live steam of the class from a different room while supervised.

However if there are 6 students coming out of say 10 classes (conservative estimate) they are just moving a new problem of 60 students to another part of the school, most likely to a computer room that already has a class in it.

Cool plan.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Absolutely.

Like I said after Wave 2 just before Wave 3.

Every day is a learning day.

#science.

# science like the WHO scientists who have stated this is spreading in a single wave with no evidence yet of a seasonal effect?

Bobtheman

seamus wrote: »

It really seems like our principals have been doing nothing to prepare.

Yes, the guidelines are coming way too late, but they also don't contain anything unexpected. You can go back on this thread and see that I predicted basically all of the measures more than a month ago. And I'm not especially clever, half of the country knew what would be required, so there's no good reason why schools couldn't prepare for the return without the guidelines.

At this stage they should only needs to place final orders for equipment, arrange building work and schedule staff training. Planning one-way systems, class layouts, ingress/egress protocols, etc should have been done by the principals weeks ago; anyone with a shred of competence predicted what would be required before the school year had even ended.

You are probably right about some of this but we are not Principals. We have no idea of the bureachracy of ordering equipment when the money is not in your account already or how procurement works. It can also be hard to hire people for a job that doesn't really start for a few weeks. How many cleaners are lining up to get into schools?

Peter Flynt

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I think the 6 are to be rotated and they are to watch a live steam of the class from a different room while supervised.

However if there are 6 students coming out of say 10 classes (conservative estimate) they are just moving a new problem of 60 students to another part of the school, most likely to a computer room that already has a class in it.

Cool plan.

The real plan I'd say is this:

Come up with bullsh*t to get teachers/students all back in.
Once there they then know that the 'live stream' of the class is a non-starter, thus forcing principals to put pressure on teachers to take the full class.

downthemiddle

seamus wrote: »

It really seems like our principals have been doing nothing to prepare.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The real plan I'd say is this:

Come up with bullsh*t to get teachers/students all back in.
Once there they then know that the 'live stream' of the class is a non-starter, thus forcing principals to put pressure on teachers to take the full class.

Oh 100% you'll get asked to take more, "shur it's only an extra 4 kids"

ginoginelli

There has been so little in the media critizing this disastrous plan. Rte and primetime in particular are giving the impression that the plan is a good one and largely endorsed.

So many people take what these outlets say as gospel, and they will trust that everything is being done to keep their kids safe. This is just not the case. The government have effectively decided to roll the dice with a poorly conceived plan and pray that they can keep the 'collateral damage' at a minimum.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

# science like the WHO scientists who have stated this is spreading in a single wave with no evidence yet of a seasonal effect?

Why are WHO scientists pointing out the blatantly obvious? You just need to take a look at Florida and Texas, no it isn't seasonal.

More evidence why literally no one is listening to the WHO anymore.

Waves are determined by the ability of the country or region to suppress the virus. Right now we are doing a very good job of that, this "plan" scuppers that good work IMO.

#science.

lulublue22

downthemiddle wrote: »

Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this.

I’m not one to stay quiet if I feel something needs to be said in school. I don’t always see eye to eye with management. What I will say is my principal has played a blinder - very proactive in trying to cover all bases. I’d say the configure the room to hold 32 while SD will cause some consternation but as a school we will open in Sep with as much of these guidelines implemented as possible due to the hard graft of management and staff. For those laying the blame at managements door - they remind me of the hurlers on the ditch - every game won within the first 5 mins yet they never seem to actually make it onto the pitch. For all those dropping your children to school in Sep - it’s only possible due to management and staff pulling out all the stops between now and then. Of course all teachers ever do is stand at the top of the class.:rolleyes:

wirelessdude01

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I think the 6 are to be rotated and they are to watch a live steam of the class from a different room while supervised.

However if there are 6 students coming out of say 10 classes (conservative estimate) they are just moving a new problem of 60 students to another part of the school, most likely to a computer room that already has a class in it.

Cool plan.

Well we have ZERO empty rooms and no spare staff. Plan is so full of holes that are left up to schools to try and figure out.

jimmytwotimes 2013

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well we have ZERO empty rooms and no spare staff. Plan is so full of holes that are left up to schools to try and figure out.

Same

Peter Flynt

ginoginelli wrote: »

There has been so little in the media critizing this disastrous plan. Rte and primetime in particular are giving the impression that the plan is a good one and largely endorsed.

The reality is that the plan IS largely endorsed.
The unions are so weak & powerless that they're afraid to oppose anything - even when it comes to the lives of their members.

This is not entirely a criticism of the unions.
It's the realpolitik of the situation.
Any issues raised or concerns will be seized upon by the media and used to attack teachers and the profession with the anti-teacher trolling brigade rubbing their hands with glee.

The issue is not about safety anymore - how could it be as the 'plan' is a disgrace?
The issue is about money - teachers doing their 'bit'.

That's a risky decision to take as provoking a second wave (already underway in Germany, Belgium & Spain) will close schools anyway. There's no 'proceeding with caution' but 'just get on with it' in the face of complete denial. In many ways it reminds me of brexit and the attitude of the brexiteers.

Icantthinkof1

Can I ask a question?
Myself and my children have a condition that places us in the extremely high risk groups.
They have only recently been diagnosed. Should I be contacting the principals about their conditions and my concerns about them returning to school- is this the correct route to go down? I don’t want to stress the principals out anymore than they already are. Is there someone else I should be contacting about it?
Like can I request that they are sat next to a window would that even make a difference? I’m finding it very hard as their consultants aren’t telling me straight out that they shouldn’t return to school as risk to children is considered low