How will schools be able to go back in September?

Deeec

Deeec wrote: »

I agree with you there is a lot of workplaces where social distancing just isnt possible. There is also workplaces with minimum or no covid procedures in place. I think the issue is with schools though is that children mix completley different to adults with creates alot of issues - hugging each other, handholding, sharing drinks , not hand washing etc.

Those doing that have been doing that throughout the lockdown too. Completely off topic, but all this hugging and handholding etc is a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland, at least among non romantically involved teens.

Supercell

Supercell wrote: »

That may be the case, but as in everything some models will be better than others.
I would imagine the very fact that parents know that their kid is going to have their temperature taken at the entrance means many don't even try to send their sick kid in.
Its about protecting the teachers as much as anything. At our kids school there is always a couple of teachers at the school entrance when they open the gates keeping an eye on things, staggered starts and i don't really see any problem at all with this. Though as Khalessi has already said it's all about money so not going to happen though surely would prevent some outbreaks.

Children are also the least impacted. The important thing is to maintain good information on contacts etc so trace and isolate can be completed

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

I don't know which sides you were both on about masks, but in fairness, the advice around those was hugely conflicting and still is - either they help or they don't, and if they help they should be mandatory indoors.

Benimar

Deleted User wrote: »

Those doing that have been doing that throughout the lockdown too.

What about those that haven’t, like my kids? Plenty more in the same boat and they are now all going to get zero protection on return to school.

is_that_so

caveat emptor wrote: »

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

Yeah, I was just as you and many others have been wrong many times during this.

Benimar

Benimar wrote: »

What about those that haven’t, like my kids? Plenty more in the same boat and they are now all going to get zero protection on return to school.

Well they can continue not hugging and handholding and stay away from the hugging and handholding set. They are probably not part of that "in" group anyway.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, I was just as you and many others have been wrong many times during this.

There has been so much bad reporting on this and the WHO have made a dogs dinner of it too, reporting some things that seemed very likely to help like masks having "no evidence" to support it and others like handwashing being a panacea while it also at the time had equally "no evidence".

copeyhagen

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

Boggles

The ECDC are set to release their recommendations on schools reopening across Europe in the next week or 2. (sure what's the rush)

NPHET take the majority of their advice from the ECDC.

Will be interesting to see how their advice align with the "plan" and if it differs how NPHET will be able to sign off on it.

Finland in collaboration with the ECDC implemented a plan to get kids under 13 back to school in May.

Our "plan" has several copy and pastes from that document, with some pretty worrying omissions.

Mainly pupil teacher ratios and pods, or "cohorts" as they call them.

They acknowledged that kids in the first 4 years of school will struggle to social distance to combat that they recommend a maximum of 15 kids per teacher in their own "cohort".

How does that compare to the first 4 years of school in this country in terms of ratio?

HerrKuehn

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

titan18

Deleted User wrote:

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods†so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

Difference there is you say the company has done everything in its power. It really looks like the government haven't in relation to schools.

is_that_so

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

The "experts" in this case means the DES, so one can understand concerns. It's the tardiness of the solution and the sense that it is only half-cooked that is more frustrating.

Boggles

copeyhagen wrote: »

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

We need to get rid of this myth, there is a "tiny" chance of kids catching Covid 19.

There is 1000 kids a day in Florida catching it.

Cats can get infected, but kids who are 100% human can't. :rolleyes:

Thankfully kids don't seem to get as sick from it, around a 1-2% hospitalization rate on confirmed cases, unfortunately some have died, but it is rare.

Kids can certainly catch and transmit it, some age groups may be better at doing this then adults according to the South Korean study.

It would be great if you could reopen the schools and keep them open and as an extension the rest of country, but this needs to be based on science and best practice not dribbling ignorance or political convenience.

Deeec

copeyhagen wrote: »

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

I really want my kids back at school but I want them to be safe - they so want to be back at school. There seems to be more evidence coming out over the last few weeks that there could be longterm affects on the body left by the virus. I think if my children or myself or my husband caught it we would survive as we are all healthy but it scares me that we could be left with lifelong damage because of this virus.

jimmytwotimes 2013

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

No point discussing anything really so. Shut down boards.

Are people not capable of observing what's being implemented in other places to try curb the spread of the virus and look to implement similar here?

is_that_so

Deeec wrote: »

I really want my kids back at school but I want them to be safe - they so want to be back at school. There seems to be more evidence coming out over the last few weeks that there could be longterm affects on the body left by the virus. I think if my children or myself or my husband caught it we would survive as we are all healthy but it scares me that we could be left with lifelong damage because of this virus.

Nobody knows what the long term effects are, that's just guesswork after 6 months of or so of this. Even in 2 years that will not be clear.

Boggles

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

is_that_so

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

Yes indeed you have a point but through this thread and others teachers have been told they do not know how viruses spread despite witnessing it in class throughout winter months with the spread of a cold ( one of 7 coronaviruses), the flu, winter vomitting bug and even the spread of headlice etc.

Nope we aren't virologists or epidemiologists nor claim to be despite other people's comments. But we do see how germs spread and we do know that the idea of pods has been done for years as we sit children in groups and germs spread. We do know that children in school are good but like to be in close contact with their friends and boundaries are not always remembered

So when we point out that certain guidelines are absent or are not suitable or not fit for use. It is not to avoid coming back to work, every teacher on here wants to go back. It is not to get a payrise or to cause hassle. It is to protect children, our children and yours, and the workforce.

We are trying to highlight the inadequacies so everyone is safe going back. Isn't what people should want a safe return to school instead of looking for ulterior movtives.

Yes there are places like Riand's workplace but measures were put in place and they as he says, knew the risk. I know the risk of returning to school whether big or little and am going back, but it won't stop me highlighting the problems as then hopefully they can be fixed. We should all want a safe environment for our kids.

HerrKuehn

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time. As the evidence changes, so too might their opinion. But it is an informed opinion. Do you not think he reads all available papers rather than just bits published in newspapers?

copeyhagen

Boggles wrote: »

We need to get rid of this myth, there is a "tiny" chance of kids catching Covid 19.

There is 1000 kids a day in Florida catching it.

Cats can get infected, but kids who are 100% human can't. :rolleyes:

Thankfully kids don't seem to get as sick from it, around a 1-2% hospitalization rate on confirmed cases, unfortunately some have died, but it is rare.

Kids can certainly catch and transmit it, some age groups may be better at doing this then adults according to the South Korean study.

It would be great if you could reopen the schools and keep them open and as an extension the rest of country, but this needs to be based on science and best practice not dribbling ignorance or political convenience.

i didnt mean kids cant catch it medically, i mean its apparently not in the community.

the corpo

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

I guess the problem is when the 'experts' in the Government ignore the actual experts. NPHET were behind on masks, and look similarly behind on airborne transmission, which the WHO are now recognising.

It gave me chills to read that the document states, "Remember, can only be spread by droplets". Absolutely not true, and we have to remember our classrooms are often in worse condition than most other European countries.

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

You can't touch the important parts of your face when you have a mask on. Seriously put a mask on and try it.

Seriously are we going back to February's tailored "science"? :rolleyes:

Boggles

HerrKuehn wrote: »

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time.

Well no, their opinion on masks was based on the availability of masks, that's not science that politics.

When you mix the 2 you get Florida and Texas.

lulublue22

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

I actually agree re NPHET. However what I would like to see is 1. a clear explanation from NPHET why public health advice re schools is so different to public Health advise across all other sectors. If they are discounting the fairly substantial S K study ( substantial in terms of numbers) can they explain why ? and 2. Can they explain why the dep of ED are discounting evidence that the virus may be airbourne. If they are happy for the dep to do so why is this not reflected in public health guidelines in the community ?

3. Can the gov at least admit that SD in schools under the current plan is hog wash. We are in the middle of a pandemic what was published by the dep of Ed was scandalous pure optics. Using all the buzzwords ! Pods of up to 32 with murra SD . 1000 extra teachers sounds good but as always the devil is in the detail. The pulling of SET to cover illness is a disgrace.

4. We are where we are now the gov wanted a full return. That’s what we have. At this stage I’m more interested in procedures around dealing with outbreaks / clusters in schools.

ETA Due to our class sizes the only way we could have successful implemented SD in schools was a partial return to school. I find it amazing that the general public are not up in arms re class size. Posters will allude to schools on tbe continent returning ( even Leo) but there seems to be no follow through re oh ya they have much smaller classes or it’s a partial return.

Alrigghtythen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

It's trailblazers we need at a time like this

That's exactly what we need Jimmy. We cant be hand holding now because of social distancing. We'll show the way, but the teachers will have to come out from under the bed themselves

Lillyfae

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?

This is exactly it. We can all post any data we want about any argument we want to support about Covid-19, but the bottom line is any data about Covid-19 is limited to less than 8 months. That is what the zealots on either side fail to admit/ understand. Any scientific research has to add that as part of the conclusion- we do not know what the long term impact of Covid-19 is. We don't even know what the medium term impact of Covid-19 is

Children have already missed months of education and social development. Chances are, this will go on for years. They have no say whatsoever in this, no real understanding of why it's happening. It's very late, but the government has as requested made a large amount of funding available for upgrades of buildings, cleaning staff and substitution staff in the event of illness in consultation with various stakeholders including teachers unions.

Work has to be done by the individual schools, because it is not now feasible for the DoE to go around to inspect every premises before opening. The BoM should be a representative of the DoE for any school, so it's not even necessary. If you want masks and thermometers, it's up to you to let your principal know this. Every school is different and will require different measures, the solution has to be bespoke whether you agree with that or not.

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....

• We can't procure masks for health care workers
• If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.
• We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.
• That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school

• for the economy
• for people's sanity
• for their future education
• science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases
• that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

Oh pleeeeeaasseeee .... the same is true of handwashing, using a condom etc. Why the particular focus on masks being ineffective?

What he said was totally irresponsible and cost lives.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....

• We can't procure masks for health care workers
• If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.
• We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.
• That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school

• for the economy
• for people's sanity
• for their future education
• science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases
• that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.