How will schools be able to go back in September?

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for this, very interesting reading. So a school without a civil service employee as a caretaker/secretary and over 100 students have about 15 grand per year to spend on another staff member, and about the same to spend on basic running costs and insurance. Also, primary and secondary schools are funded to the same level. Disgusting.

Disgusting waste of money or disgusting that funding is so low?

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Query what? Sure you said you aren't asked for money.

Schools are busy enough in a normal September, can only imagine what this September is going to be like. If you are approaching the school over something that isn't of immediate concern just leave it until October.

I want to know if teachers in our school are expected to use their own money.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Disgusting waste of money or disgusting that funding is so low?

Disgusting that funding is so low, obviously.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Query what? Sure you said you aren't asked for money.

Schools are busy enough in a normal September, can only imagine what this September is going to be like. If you are approaching the school over something that isn't of immediate concern just leave it until October.

Ah stop. He’s completely right, so what if it’s not going on at one school, there are hundreds of schools where it’s normal practice. I’m alright Jack isn’t a good enough attitude to have.

ChelseaRentBoy

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Primary or secondary?

Reason I ask is because my next door neighbour, who is a secondary teacher, said they've been told by principal to prepare for full remote teaching. More chance of primary being more 'properly' back as we have alot less movement and easier to implement these so called pods.

Sorry only seeing this now. Secondary school.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

jrosen wrote: »

I want to know if teachers in our school are expected to use their own money.

I know some of them do end up spending their own money or else they go without. It's shocking if that's the norm across schools.

Probably why there's so much fundraising done by PTA's, it's paying for the basics and bills.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for this, very interesting reading. So a school without a civil service employee as a caretaker/secretary and over 100 students have about 15 grand per year to spend on another staff member, and about the same to spend on basic running costs and insurance. Also, primary and secondary schools are funded to the same level. Disgusting.

That circular is for primary capitation. I’m on the phone at the moment so can’t link the secondary circular. Secondary capitation is greater than primary.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

I want to know if teachers in our school are expected to use their own money.

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for this, very interesting reading. So a school without a civil service employee as a caretaker/secretary and over 100 students have about 15 grand per year to spend on another staff member, and about the same to spend on basic running costs and insurance. Also, primary and secondary schools are funded to the same level. Disgusting.

As an aside secondary capitation grant is substantially higher.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

That circular is for primary capitation. I’m on the phone at the moment so can’t link the secondary circular. Secondary capitation is greater than primary.

Oh, I took “over 12s” to mean that it was for secondary too.

tscul32

I'm a parent rep on our BOM and it is a serious eye opener. Our treasurer explained at one point that 12 years ago we paid a few hundred euros for water rates whereas now we pay over €10,000. The capitation grant is more or less the same now as it was back then. That's money that would have been used for heating and toilet paper, etc. We ask for €50 per family as a voluntary contribution but still only get about 40% paying it.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

Im actually gobsmacked. I never ever knew. I did hear of teachers doing easter cake making etc and assumed they footed that bill themselves because they were doing it as a treat but had no idea that the basis needs of the classroom are not being met.
I think your right not to use your own money. Its irrelevant what your paid. Its not your responsibility.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

It’s not really another story though. It’s like people who work 60 hours when they’re paid for 40. It makes it impossible to justify that at least another 0.5fte is needed. Funding is the problem, and is not going to be solved by teachers spending an undetermined amount of money on classroom sundries and then not declaring it, or bullying parents into funding to almost the same amount. The DoE can then pretend there’s no problem.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

I tend to do it as I feel guilty that the children are missing out. Soap and bin bags I tend to bring from home. However I have cut back on items for the curriculum over the last 3 years or so as it was becoming too much.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

I want to know if teachers in our school are expected to use their own money.

Most teachers do.

There is a saying in teaching where it is the one job where you steal from home and use it in work rather than other way round.

Expenses can range from books, copies, pens, pencils, photocpying, art, cooking and science supplies, laminating, making of resources or displays or buying them, cleaning materials. Most teachers have bought dustpans and brushes for classes along with cleaning supplies including disinfectant cloths soap etc.

THe most I everspent in one year was 1800e and that wasn't including buying folders, printer ink, printer, pollypockets for reports required by the school which are provided in offices but not in schools for teachers. I also used to buy food for lunch for some kids who didnt have it.

I will say at the beginning of the year as stationery supplies I used to be given given 1 A4 refill pad, 1 red pen, 1 blue pen, 1 roll of sellotape and a ream of photocopy paper but that stopped a number of years ago.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

I tend to do it as I feel guilty that the children are missing out. Soap and bin bags I tend to bring from home. However I have cut back on items for the curriculum over the last 3 years or so as it was becoming too much.

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

jrosen

I would buy all my own stationary for work. I do alot of additional work/training so I buy what I need to keep my items in order. I have no issue doing this. My husband would do the same. So to a degree the need to buy your own folders etc i dont see as a big deal and would think its not uncommon across many sectors.
But you need to stop buying classroom material/cleaning supplies/books/copies etc for students.

The more you fill the gap the longer the dept gets away with underfunding.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

I would buy all my own stationary for work. I do alot of additional work/training so I buy what I need to keep my items in order. I have no issue doing this. My husband would do the same. So to a degree the need to buy your own folders etc i dont see as a big deal and would think its not uncommon across many sectors.
But you need to stop buying classroom material/cleaning supplies/books/copies etc for students.

The more you fill the gap the longer the dept gets away with underfunding.

jrosen wrote: »

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

Two approaches to the same thing and 2 different answers. The employer is the Department and their response is to ignore it. Hence the need for the voluntary contribution.

I do think that for one year teachers and parents should not pay voluntary contributions or buy school supplies in every school in the country and the Department would see true cost of running a school but then the students would lose out in so many ways.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

Disgraceful way to involve students in this, if you have an issue go to your boss.

That attitude is all wrong.

iamwhoiam

Would teachers who spend their own money keep a record of that spending ? I would keep a record and send it in to the DoE and encourage others to do the same
It’s scandalous to have teachers spend money on cleaning products

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

We get a relatively small amount of money to resource our class each year. If I run out of something or didn't have the money to replenish something from the previous year then obviously we can't do that. Lack of paint for instance would be a clear example. You borrow what you can from other classes but we all have the same issue.

Why do you suggest I do? Write a nicely worded email to the minister for education, the minister for finance or the minister for public expenditure and reform. Tell them my school and I have no money for our school and could they sub us some money?

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Disgraceful way to involve students in this, if you have an issue go to your boss.

That attitude is all wrong.

See response to a different post. Actually my parents have always said they like how I'm very straight and upfront about things. They appreciate it. Actually a few of them have contacted TDs about finding but sure you get a polite letter back and then it's forgotten about.

BonsaiKitten

khalessi wrote: »

Two approaches to the same thing and 2 different answers. The employer is the Department and their response is to ignore it. Hence the need for the voluntary contribution.

I do think that for one year teachers and parents should not pay voluntary contributions or buy school supplies in every school in the country and the Department would see true cost of running a school but then the students would lose out in so many ways.

Yep, this is why the Department keep underfunding schools. They know they have teachers over a barrel - teachers care for their students and want the best for them, therefore they spend out of their own pockets. I think the vast majority of teachers have bought items and not been reimbursed, at the very least at the beginning of their careers. It's an unspoken expectation in lots of schools.

Doing what you suggest would probably be very effective but I can't see teachers being willing to let their pupils miss out.

iamwhoiam

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We get a relatively small amount of money to resource our class each year. If I run out of something or didn't have the money to replenish something from the previous year then obviously we can't do that. Lack of paint for instance would be a clear example. You borrow what you can from other classes but we all have the same issue.

Why do you suggest I do? Write a nicely worded email to the minister for education, the minister for finance or the minister for public expenditure and reform. Tell them my school and I have no money for our school and could they sub us some money?

I certainly would not be involving children in any dispute or worries about lack of funding . That is a dreadful attitude to have towards your pupils
Whatever about informing parents but to tell children to do their whinging at home about it is appaling

wirelessdude01

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I certainly would not be involving children in any dispute or worries about lack of funding . That is a dreadful attitude to have towards your pupils
Whatever about informing parents but to tell children to do their whinging at home about it is appaling

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

Students really don't need to made aware of any issues you have with funding. Your job is to educate them not send them home to whine about how badly your job is funded.

There are proper ways to do this without involving your students.

Go home and whine to your parents, a really poor message to be giving students and their parents and its not going to win you much support on the matter.

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

I think some people are getting hung up on the bit in bold but let me try to explain what I think wirelessdude01's agenda is here

Teachers are not listened to by management teams. I have lost count of the number of meetings where we have been asked for advice on how to improve a certain aspect of schooling, only for nothing to change because money was required to make it happen.

These same management teams will not cross parents and pupils. Their funding is directly linked to the numbers of bums they have on seats. A parent threatening to remove their child from your school is not what a principal wants.

Teachers have tried going to their employers. It isn't working. So, saying to a class "Right guys, I'd love to do this brilliant experiment with you, but the school doesn't have the money to buy the equipment, so we can't" is more likely going to end with the money and equipment appearing quite quickly once parents start phoning in about it. It sounds awful I know but I would doubt it is any teacher's plan A and unfortunately it is currently the most effective way of getting what we need. Would I use this approach? With senior cycle students, yes I would.

To those of you saying that wirelessdude01 has a horrible attitude, using the students like that - I would respectfully urge you to take a closer look at the Dept of Ed's treatment of your children via their refusal to fund. The horrible part of what wirelessdude01 is saying is that he/she has been placed in a position where this behaviour even has to be considered.

iamwhoiam

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

A dreadful use of children for your own agenda . Regardless of the reason and regardless of what works for you

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Bananaleaf wrote: »

So, saying to a class "Right guys, I'd love to do this brilliant experiment with you, but the school doesn't have the money to buy the equipment, so we can't" is more likely going to end with the money and equipment appearing quite quickly once parents start phoning in about it. It sounds awful I know but I would doubt it is any teacher's plan A and unfortunately it is currently the most effective way of getting what we want. Would I use this approach? With senior cycle students, yes I would.

To those of you saying that wirelessdude01 has a horrible attitude, using the students like that - I would respectfully urge you to take a closer look at the Dept of Ed's treatment of your children via their refusal to fund

Why would you even say it if you know the funds aren't there to do the experiment, to make a cheap point by involving kids in a funding issue?

If one of mine came home saying this then the teacher would be getting the opposite of support, cheap easy shots and using kids and parents too.

So the solution is to piss students and parents off so they call the principal?