How will schools be able to go back in September?

I'll give another example that has happened to me. I had a laptop that was about 10-12yrs old. Really outdated and not up to modern use in a classroom. I repeatedly asked for a new one as it wasn't fit for purpose. Got nowhere within the school. No money was the answer which was and is true. I repeatedly gave out stink to the class about it. Guess what, a few parents approached the principal complaining about how for instance their child's teacher couldn't proper access and use the available gaeilge resources due to the poor equipment their child's teacher had been given. Miraculously a new laptop was on my desk within a few weeks compliments of a parent who worked in a tech company who arranged a sponsored one. Wouldn't have happened without being vocal about things.

The use of the word whinge is the incorrect word to have used but parents need to be vocalised about these things. Most of them are completely ignorant of what little funding we receive.

History Queen

jrosen wrote: »

The agenda is to clearly use the students..

two wrongs dont make a right. If there is a funding issue then the teachers need to be making noise about it. They need to be making it known to their schools, to their employer.

Teachers and parents could be joining forces here for the benefit of students.

We do make it known in our schools and the Dept. Endlessly. The Dept of Education ignore us. The media/public dont want to know about it. Just look at the way teachers are being made out to be unreasonable at the moment because we are looking for funding for PPE/handwashing facilities/extra staff etc. People are twisting it to seem like we are lazy layabouts looking for time off and more money when that is patently untrue. Teachers are not valued by society in Ireland and not believed when we ask for resources, that's why schools ask for voluntary contributions.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Well, first of all, I would never speak to my students like that. I would never use that language with them. Not trying to make myself out to be Robin Williams in The Dead Poet's Society or anything, but my students know exactly how much I care about their education (which is probably why I could get away with saying it to them)

But to answer your question very honestly, no I wouldn't call parents. If I have a class of 30 students, that would mean calling 30 parents. Do you have any idea how long that would take? I genuinely would not have the time to do that.

Note that I said 'I would' use this approach. I never have. But I totally would if it came to it. I would exhaust every other option first, including emailing my principal, because if there is one thing they hate as much as annoyed parents, it's having things sent to them in writing!

The teacher is doing this for the students!!! They're not looking for 30 beakers to bring home so they can store their lentils in them or whatever

Look I understand your point but am appalled by anyone trying to justify using children for their own agenda .
And I don’t think I mentioned anything about calling parents ? i was thinking more on the lines of e mailing them ! It certainly is preferable to sending the children home to whinge about it

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

The agenda is to clearly use the students..

two wrongs dont make a right. If there is a funding issue then the teachers need to be making noise about it. They need to be making it known to their schools, to their employer.

Teachers and parents could be joining forces here for the benefit of students.

Teachers and parents should be joining forces, it has been mentioned many times in this thread. The Department shows little interest in funding education at the best of times and even now in a pandemic, maybe it is about time they banded together.

Teachers have for years tried to point out shortages but the Departments attitude is that is a local issue so maybe making it a national issue pu forward by parents and teachers something could be done.

jrosen wrote: »

The agenda is to clearly use the students..

two wrongs dont make a right. If there is a funding issue then the teachers need to be making noise about it. They need to be making it known to their schools, to their employer.

Teachers and parents could be joining forces here for the benefit of students.

What, like a strike? :pac:

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Surely you go to parents with any difficulty with equipment and not tell your pupils to go home and whinge at home about it ?

Well, first of all, I would never speak to my students like that. I would never use that language with them. Not trying to make myself out to be Robin Williams in The Dead Poet's Society or anything, but my students know exactly how much I care about their education (which is probably why I could get away with saying it to them)

But to answer your question very honestly, no I wouldn't call parents. If I have a class of 30 students, that would mean calling 30 parents. Do you have any idea how long that would take? I genuinely would not have the time to do that.

Note that I said 'I would' use this approach. I never have. But I totally would if it came to it. I would exhaust every other option first, including emailing my principal, because if there is one thing they hate as much as annoyed parents, it's having things sent to them in writing!

The teacher is doing this for the students!!! They're not looking for 30 beakers to bring home so they can store their lentils in them or whatever

The agenda is to clearly use the students..

two wrongs dont make a right. If there is a funding issue then the teachers need to be making noise about it. They need to be making it known to their schools, to their employer.

Teachers and parents could be joining forces here for the benefit of students.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Apologies, I possibly should have calrified this but didn't think to, to be honest.
I just used the experiment story as an example, but the point I would be making would be in relation to things that were actually needed to fulfil examination requirements for example.

Would I say it if it were an experiment that I just wanted to do because I thought it was good, but I could totally do something else that I did have the equipment for? God, no. That would be petty

I'm talking about a teacher lacking necessary equipment, something that, if the students didn't have access to it, they would be at a disadvantage in their state examinations.

Surely you go to parents with any difficulty with equipment and not tell your pupils to go home and whinge at home about it ?
I genuinely don’t understand anyone defending that post

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Why would you even say it if you know the funds aren't there to do the experiment, to make a cheap point by involving kids in a funding issue?

If one of mine came home saying this then the teacher would be getting the opposite of support, cheap easy shots and using kids and parents too.

So the solution is to piss students and parents off so they call the principal?

Apologies, I possibly should have calrified this but didn't think to, to be honest.
I just used the experiment story as an example, but the point I would be making would be in relation to things that were actually needed to fulfil examination requirements for example.

Would I say it if it were an experiment that I just wanted to do because I thought it was good, but I could totally do something else that I did have the equipment for? God, no. That would be petty

I'm talking about a teacher lacking necessary equipment, something that, if the students didn't have access to it, they would be at a disadvantage in their state examinations.

deiseindublin

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So you can tell the future so?

Along with yesterday's mind reading, this girl really is good!

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Bananaleaf wrote: »

So, saying to a class "Right guys, I'd love to do this brilliant experiment with you, but the school doesn't have the money to buy the equipment, so we can't" is more likely going to end with the money and equipment appearing quite quickly once parents start phoning in about it. It sounds awful I know but I would doubt it is any teacher's plan A and unfortunately it is currently the most effective way of getting what we want. Would I use this approach? With senior cycle students, yes I would.

To those of you saying that wirelessdude01 has a horrible attitude, using the students like that - I would respectfully urge you to take a closer look at the Dept of Ed's treatment of your children via their refusal to fund

Why would you even say it if you know the funds aren't there to do the experiment, to make a cheap point by involving kids in a funding issue?

If one of mine came home saying this then the teacher would be getting the opposite of support, cheap easy shots and using kids and parents too.

So the solution is to piss students and parents off so they call the principal?

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

A dreadful use of children for your own agenda . Regardless of the reason and regardless of what works for you

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

I think some people are getting hung up on the bit in bold but let me try to explain what I think wirelessdude01's agenda is here

Teachers are not listened to by management teams. I have lost count of the number of meetings where we have been asked for advice on how to improve a certain aspect of schooling, only for nothing to change because money was required to make it happen.

These same management teams will not cross parents and pupils. Their funding is directly linked to the numbers of bums they have on seats. A parent threatening to remove their child from your school is not what a principal wants.

Teachers have tried going to their employers. It isn't working. So, saying to a class "Right guys, I'd love to do this brilliant experiment with you, but the school doesn't have the money to buy the equipment, so we can't" is more likely going to end with the money and equipment appearing quite quickly once parents start phoning in about it. It sounds awful I know but I would doubt it is any teacher's plan A and unfortunately it is currently the most effective way of getting what we need. Would I use this approach? With senior cycle students, yes I would.

To those of you saying that wirelessdude01 has a horrible attitude, using the students like that - I would respectfully urge you to take a closer look at the Dept of Ed's treatment of your children via their refusal to fund. The horrible part of what wirelessdude01 is saying is that he/she has been placed in a position where this behaviour even has to be considered.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

Students really don't need to made aware of any issues you have with funding. Your job is to educate them not send them home to whine about how badly your job is funded.

There are proper ways to do this without involving your students.

Go home and whine to your parents, a really poor message to be giving students and their parents and its not going to win you much support on the matter.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I certainly would not be involving children in any dispute or worries about lack of funding . That is a dreadful attitude to have towards your pupils
Whatever about informing parents but to tell children to do their whinging at home about it is appaling

Each to their own. I have my methods which work for me.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We get a relatively small amount of money to resource our class each year. If I run out of something or didn't have the money to replenish something from the previous year then obviously we can't do that. Lack of paint for instance would be a clear example. You borrow what you can from other classes but we all have the same issue.

Why do you suggest I do? Write a nicely worded email to the minister for education, the minister for finance or the minister for public expenditure and reform. Tell them my school and I have no money for our school and could they sub us some money?

I certainly would not be involving children in any dispute or worries about lack of funding . That is a dreadful attitude to have towards your pupils
Whatever about informing parents but to tell children to do their whinging at home about it is appaling

BonsaiKitten

khalessi wrote: »

Two approaches to the same thing and 2 different answers. The employer is the Department and their response is to ignore it. Hence the need for the voluntary contribution.

I do think that for one year teachers and parents should not pay voluntary contributions or buy school supplies in every school in the country and the Department would see true cost of running a school but then the students would lose out in so many ways.

Yep, this is why the Department keep underfunding schools. They know they have teachers over a barrel - teachers care for their students and want the best for them, therefore they spend out of their own pockets. I think the vast majority of teachers have bought items and not been reimbursed, at the very least at the beginning of their careers. It's an unspoken expectation in lots of schools.

Doing what you suggest would probably be very effective but I can't see teachers being willing to let their pupils miss out.

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Disgraceful way to involve students in this, if you have an issue go to your boss.

That attitude is all wrong.

See response to a different post. Actually my parents have always said they like how I'm very straight and upfront about things. They appreciate it. Actually a few of them have contacted TDs about finding but sure you get a polite letter back and then it's forgotten about.

jrosen wrote: »

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

We get a relatively small amount of money to resource our class each year. If I run out of something or didn't have the money to replenish something from the previous year then obviously we can't do that. Lack of paint for instance would be a clear example. You borrow what you can from other classes but we all have the same issue.

Why do you suggest I do? Write a nicely worded email to the minister for education, the minister for finance or the minister for public expenditure and reform. Tell them my school and I have no money for our school and could they sub us some money?

Would teachers who spend their own money keep a record of that spending ? I would keep a record and send it in to the DoE and encourage others to do the same
It’s scandalous to have teachers spend money on cleaning products

ldy4mxonucwsq6

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

Disgraceful way to involve students in this, if you have an issue go to your boss.

That attitude is all wrong.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

I would buy all my own stationary for work. I do alot of additional work/training so I buy what I need to keep my items in order. I have no issue doing this. My husband would do the same. So to a degree the need to buy your own folders etc i dont see as a big deal and would think its not uncommon across many sectors.
But you need to stop buying classroom material/cleaning supplies/books/copies etc for students.

The more you fill the gap the longer the dept gets away with underfunding.

jrosen wrote: »

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

Two approaches to the same thing and 2 different answers. The employer is the Department and their response is to ignore it. Hence the need for the voluntary contribution.

I do think that for one year teachers and parents should not pay voluntary contributions or buy school supplies in every school in the country and the Department would see true cost of running a school but then the students would lose out in so many ways.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

I completely disagree with your approach. Its unfair to use students in this way. If you do not have the resources to work in the classroom you need to take that up with your employer.

I would buy all my own stationary for work. I do alot of additional work/training so I buy what I need to keep my items in order. I have no issue doing this. My husband would do the same. So to a degree the need to buy your own folders etc i dont see as a big deal and would think its not uncommon across many sectors.
But you need to stop buying classroom material/cleaning supplies/books/copies etc for students.

The more you fill the gap the longer the dept gets away with underfunding.

lulublue22 wrote: »

I tend to do it as I feel guilty that the children are missing out. Soap and bin bags I tend to bring from home. However I have cut back on items for the curriculum over the last 3 years or so as it was becoming too much.

Leave your guilt at the door. Spend your hard earned money on yourself and your family if you have one. I've told children before that we couldn't do something because we didn't have the resources to do it and any whinging about it was to be done to mammy and daddy at home as the government do not give our school enough money to buy things. This situation will only improve the more we push back.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

I want to know if teachers in our school are expected to use their own money.

Most teachers do.

There is a saying in teaching where it is the one job where you steal from home and use it in work rather than other way round.

Expenses can range from books, copies, pens, pencils, photocpying, art, cooking and science supplies, laminating, making of resources or displays or buying them, cleaning materials. Most teachers have bought dustpans and brushes for classes along with cleaning supplies including disinfectant cloths soap etc.

THe most I everspent in one year was 1800e and that wasn't including buying folders, printer ink, printer, pollypockets for reports required by the school which are provided in offices but not in schools for teachers. I also used to buy food for lunch for some kids who didnt have it.

I will say at the beginning of the year as stationery supplies I used to be given given 1 A4 refill pad, 1 red pen, 1 blue pen, 1 roll of sellotape and a ream of photocopy paper but that stopped a number of years ago.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

I tend to do it as I feel guilty that the children are missing out. Soap and bin bags I tend to bring from home. However I have cut back on items for the curriculum over the last 3 years or so as it was becoming too much.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It's more or less accepted that teachers do it. Personally I refuse to. If we need something for art, science or some other aspect of the curriculum and we don't have it then we don't do it. I'm not paid enough as an LPT to supplement and plug the holes in funding. I wish other teachers had the same attitude as me as then maybe the gaps in funding/resources would be more blatantly obvious but that's another story.

It’s not really another story though. It’s like people who work 60 hours when they’re paid for 40. It makes it impossible to justify that at least another 0.5fte is needed. Funding is the problem, and is not going to be solved by teachers spending an undetermined amount of money on classroom sundries and then not declaring it, or bullying parents into funding to almost the same amount. The DoE can then pretend there’s no problem.