How will schools be able to go back in September?

BonsaiKitten

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Actually was wondering do you think they will run the tests for this year once the schools are back up and running?

I've found these tests very useful to see if anything is slipping and catch it before it becomes a bigger problem.

Nah, the standardised tests were officially cancelled for this year. I've always thought they'd be more useful in autumn anyway (which you can elect to do) but I don't picture that happening in too many schools this year.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Actually was wondering do you think they will run the tests for this year once the schools are back up and running?

I've found these tests very useful to see if anything is slipping and catch it before it becomes a bigger problem.

This is where the dept needs to give us guidelines and guidance. I'd say a good chance they may not as it can be a small money saving when they don't have to pay the grant to schools for the purchase of the assessment booklets.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

However the department of education sees fit. I would imagine that it would be pretty similar to now.

The issue with you imagining things is that your imagination has shown a startling lack of information on how schools function in Ireland.
If someone came into your workplace, with little or no knowledge of how it functioned, and suggested wholesale changes, based on what they imagined the reality was. you would rightly laugh at them.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

The issue with you imagining things is that your imagination has shown a startling lack of information on how schools function in Ireland.
If someone came into your workplace, with little or no knowledge of how it functioned, and suggested wholesale changes based on what they imagined the reality was you would rightly laugh at them.

With an absolute aversion to any sort of change, I’ll give you that. Our site manager was changed last year, do you think I gave it a second thought? Nope, because it has absolutely nothing to do with me or my job.

Schools are not being adequately run, largely due to funding, but this needs to be corrected and a principal who is managing the school and not merely the teachers will be far more effective at that. Leave the teachers free to teach and nothing else.

BonsaiKitten

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

In my humble opinion they are a complete loads of sh!te. Some parents place far too much value in the stens. They are just a snapshot on a given day. Sometimes they equate to what you see during the school year and correspond to class based assessments and sometimes they don't. I always put a letter in with my reports basically telling parents not to put too much emphasis on the stens that their child got.

Oh amen to that. The pressure from some homes is ridiculous, I have had more than one child told by their parents/granny etc that if they get above a STEN 8, they'll get a present. These are generally kids who get a 5 or 6. For the non teachers that's a completely respectable score, about a third of the country get a 5...but an 8 or above is not going to happen and putting that pressure on completely ignores what the test is all about.

Btw - yes we have told parents what the purpose of the tests are. They persist in trying to get 'perfect' 10s anyway!

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

With an absolute aversion to any sort of change, I’ll give you that. Our site manager was changed last year, do you think I gave it a second thought? Nope, because it has absolutely nothing to do with me or my job.

Schools are not being adequately run, largely due to funding, but this needs to be corrected and a principal who is managing the school and not merely the teachers will be far more effective at that. Leave the teachers free to teach and nothing else.

Back to funding. Do you actually think that the dept will fund this additional layer of management for every school in Ireland?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Nah, the standardised tests were officially cancelled for this year. I've always thought they'd be more useful in autumn anyway (which you can elect to do) but I don't picture that happening in too many schools this year.

Edit: ah, I think I misinterpreted this - do you mean for 2019/20 or 2020/21?

Yes it was for the 19/20 year, we usually have a final parent teacher meeting in May and scores make up part of the end of year reports.

I'm sure most parents should be very aware by now of what their kids need to work on after the past few months. So missing this years one won't be a big deal.

jrosen

Surely the last thing needed is more management?

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Surely the last thing needed is more management?

People on here advocating for it 🀔

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

With an absolute aversion to any sort of change, I’ll give you that. Our site manager was changed last year, do you think I gave it a second thought? Nope, because it has absolutely nothing to do with me or my job.

Schools are not being adequately run, largely due to funding, but this needs to be corrected and a principal who is managing the school and not merely the teachers will be far more effective at that. Leave the teachers free to teach and nothing else.

The only element that really matters in any school is the quality of teaching and learning. Without an educator in charge teaching and learning will suffer.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

The only element that really matters in any school is the quality of teaching and learning. Without an educator in charge teaching and learning will suffer.

As a teacher your opinion is very relevant, but I don’t think you’re actually qualified to make that assessment. Neither am I, but I’m not blatantly saying your opinion is wrong, or that my opinion is fact. The system doesn’t work now, something (Or lots of things) needs to change, and urgently.

BonsaiKitten

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Yes it was for the 19/20 year, we usually have a final parent teacher meeting in May and scores make up part of the end of year reports.

I'm sure most parents should be very aware by now of what their kids need to work on after the past few months. So missing this years one won't be a big deal.

Ah yes ok. They're officially cancelled: https://www.into.ie/2020/04/27/cancellation-of-standardised-testing-for-primary-schools/#:~:text=As%20all%20schools%20are%20currently,the%202019%2F2020%20school%20year.

I always say to take them with a pinch of salt but I reckon you know that anyway.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

As a teacher your opinion is very relevant, but I don’t think you’re actually qualified to make that assessment. Neither am I, but I’m not blatantly saying your opinion is wrong, or that my opinion is fact. The system doesn’t work now, something (Or lots of things) needs to change, and urgently.

In your opinion what doesn't work about the system and needs to change? Leaving aside your idea about taking management of schools out of educators hands.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

In your opinion what doesn't work about the system and needs to change? Leaving aside your idea about taking management of schools out of educators hands.

Educators are not managers.

Take your pick. Parents paying for basic supplies such as toilet paper. Lack of hot water. No caretaker. Class sizes too big. These are all pre-COVID issues too, and all raised by teachers in this thread.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

As a teacher your opinion is very relevant, but I don’t think you’re actually qualified to make that assessment. Neither am I, but I’m not blatantly saying your opinion is wrong, or that my opinion is fact. The system doesn’t work now, something (Or lots of things) needs to change, and urgently.

The issues in education are not, for the most part, with individual schools. Schools do a good job, despite the tone of this thread, even though the overall system is not fit for purpose.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Educators are not managers.

Take your pick. Parents paying for basic supplies such as toilet paper. Lack of hot water. No caretaker. Class sizes too big. These are all pre-COVID issues too, and all raised by teachers in this thread.

None of these will change with your idea of bringing in people with procurement, facilities and management experience from other business areas. These are all down to a lack of proper funding from central government. It's actually far worse if all schools were to stop looking for voluntary contributions from the parents.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

Educators are not managers.

Take your pick. Parents paying for basic supplies such as toilet paper. Lack of hot water. No caretaker. Class sizes too big. These are all pre-COVID issues too, and all raised by teachers in this thread.

None of these are within the control of school managements. These are all issues for central government and the lack of adequate funding.

jrosen

I have never paid for basic supplies, we have a caretaker. He isn't full time but he is there most days for a period of time.

How come some schools struggle and others dont? Genuine question?

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

I have never paid for basic supplies, we have a caretaker. He isn't full time but he is there most days for a period of time.

How come some schools struggle and others dont? Genuine question?

So you've never been asked for a voluntary contribution to the school?

BonsaiKitten

jrosen wrote: »

I have never paid for basic supplies, we have a caretaker. He isn't full time but he is there most days for a period of time.

How come some schools struggle and others dont? Genuine question?

Do you pay voluntary contributions? Some of the money goes there.

You may also be in a very affluent area where school fundraisers bring in a lot of money. Conversely, your child could attend a DEIS which receive more state funding than a non-DEIS school.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Lillyfae wrote: »

As a teacher your opinion is very relevant, but I don’t think you’re actually qualified to make that assessment. Neither am I, but I’m not blatantly saying your opinion is wrong, or that my opinion is fact. The system doesn’t work now, something (Or lots of things) needs to change, and urgently.

Pretty sure downthemiddle said they aren't a teacher nor a parent to school going kids.

Maybe I'm confusing them with a different poster though, some of them sound the same.

downthemiddle

jrosen wrote: »

I have never paid for basic supplies, we have a caretaker. He isn't full time but he is there most days for a period of time.

How come some schools struggle and others dont? Genuine question?

Schools are funded based solely on their enrolment figures. The larger the school the greater the grant. However the smaller schools still have to deliver the same curriculum and buy the same resources. The grants always leave a shortfall for schools. Schools then have to prioritise where they spend money.
The ancillary staff grant covers the payment of salaries for secretaries and caretakers.

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/education/2018/76.pdf

The capitation grant is for all other expenditure, curricular, insurance, cleaning, heating, lighting etc.
https://assets.gov.ie/19794/9b7a44dcfd2d4532badfe78f27839a8e.pdf

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Pretty sure downthemiddle said they aren't a teacher nor a parent to school going kids.

Maybe I'm confusing them with a different poster though, some of them sound the same.

I haven't said anything about my professional or personal situation You are imagining things again.
I'm not qualified to help you with your obvious confusion.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So you've never been asked for a voluntary contribution to the school?

No never

wirelessdude01

Personally think lighting should all be paid for centrally once it falls within acceptable usage limits for the building type. Likewise heating, be it has or oil should also be funded directly. Usage limits to apply. Not fair that all schools get same capitation per child yet some new schools don't need as much heat due to better insulation and heat management.

jrosen

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Do you pay voluntary contributions? Some of the money goes there.

You may also be in a very affluent area where school fundraisers bring in a lot of money. Conversely, your child could attend a DEIS which receive more state funding than a non-DEIS school.

No there isn't one. (have not heard if there will be this year)

There are no fundraisers, not since one years back for sports equipment and also not a deis school. Its a large school, close to 900 pupils.

jrosen

Parents should be aware, if the school are asking for money to cover basic supplies like toilet paper and soap or heating then they should be shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are? But its something Im going to query with my own school once we are back

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

I haven't said anything about my professional or personal situation You are imagining things again.
I'm not qualified to help you with your obvious confusion.

Must have been Boggles I was thinking of there!

A few posters sound very similar so can be confusing keeping up with who's who

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

Schools are funded based solely on their enrolment figures. The larger the school the greater the grant. However the smaller schools still have to deliver the same curriculum and buy the same resources. The grants always leave a shortfall for schools. Schools then have to prioritise where they spend money.
The ancillary staff grant covers the payment of salaries for secretaries and caretakers.

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/education/2018/76.pdf

The capitation grant is for all other expenditure, curricular, insurance, cleaning, heating, lighting etc.
https://assets.gov.ie/19794/9b7a44dcfd2d4532badfe78f27839a8e.pdf

Thanks for this, very interesting reading. So a school without a civil service employee as a caretaker/secretary and over 100 students have about 15 grand per year to spend on another staff member, and about the same to spend on basic running costs and insurance. Also, primary and secondary schools are funded to the same level. Disgusting.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Parents should be aware, if the school are asking for money to cover basic supplies like toilet paper and soap or heating then they should be shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are? But its something Im going to query with my own school once we are back

Query what? Sure you said you aren't asked for money.

Schools are busy enough in a normal September, can only imagine what this September is going to be like. If you are approaching the school over something that isn't of immediate concern just leave it until October.