Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

13468939

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Geuze wrote: »
    If the CB handed newly-created money out to households, what would be the corresponding asset on the CB balance sheet?

    Ask Milton Friedman. McWilliams says here that there is no need to balance out the debt with the asset

    Yes we can. In fact, the greatest myth of economics is that printed money needs to correspond to some debt. The idea that money can only be printed by the central bank if there is a corresponding debt issued by the government against which the central bank has “permission” to print, is a stubborn one.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/helicopter-money-a-direct-economic-shot-in-the-arm-for-all-citizens-1.4202171

    ( anyway the money would be a liability of the banks, not the central bank. It is not bank reserve money i.e. monetary base).


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,833 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    rob316 wrote: »
    1% covid levy on absolutely everyone in employment or receipt of social welfare. I know that will never fly with the sw crowd but tough.
    Review in each budget.

    way easier way, you just dont increase welfare. Anything like you proposed, would cause blue murder, its simply far easier,. to stay below radar and just not increase it... Same with water charges, I'd advise any of them, to avoid that route again with a barge poll. Waste of time. What are they going to do? unleash WW3 for a euro or two a week, when these wasters brand the fiver a week welfare increases, they already get on scandalous rates, "an insult"...


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    100-billion.jpg

    I have a lawnmower back home I could sell for that amount to the Arabs. Every time I start the fecking thing it starts to rain


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    This is the dumbest post in the whole thread and it's said with the confidence only a complete lunatic could display.

    Spoken like a true communist. See how the country is shut down and people are living on government handouts because there is no work. It's a glimpse of your socialist paradise.

    Tell me this what is the euro amount difference in the contributory pension (someone with a lifetime of contributions) and the non contributory pension ( someone who never did a days work) ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    rob316 wrote: »
    How is it fair you have to pay back your entire income because you lost your job through no fault of your own? A levy on everyone is the best way.

    It can be similar to car insurance:
    If you have many years no-claim history (full time employee) your premiums (PRSI contributions) will go down to minimal.
    Once you have claim (lost your job), you'll get payed some % of your income for some amount of time (say 70% of the last salary for 6 month)
    If you get a new job, your PRSI contribution will raise again (depending on the total amount of the claim paid)
    If you're a seasonal worker, getting the dole every year for a few month, then your PRSI contributions will stay high all the time
    If you're a long term jobseeker (never worked in your life) - you only get the minimal emergency payment and the food/fuel cards. And you can stay in the emergency accommodation. No 'forever home'.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Nothing you can do about it? This is a democracy.

    You can vote FF or FG. They are oh so different that they are joining together.
    There is no alternative
    A comedy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    How fair is it that I have to pay because someone else lost their job through no fault of my own.
    If you received money you pay it back.
    I'm only working 2 or 3 days a week myself and getting the payment through work. Iv no problem paying it back over time. I don't expect someone whos been working from home and paying PAYE all along to also pay for me.

    Ok so you are not asking "How fair is it that I have to pay because someone else lost their job through no fault of my own. "

    but

    "How fair is it that someone else has to pay me because I had reduced hours in my job through no fault of my own."

    Such a strange response for someone who is benefitting from this. As someone paying for it, welcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    You can vote FF or FG. They are oh so different that they are joining together.
    There is no alternative
    A comedy

    Here you go:

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/national_government/houses_of_the_oireachtas/registering_a_political_party.html

    There is no libertarian party out there, as far as I can see, so you will have all that vote sown up when you register your new party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    How fair is it that I have to pay because someone else lost their job through no fault of my own.
    If you received money you pay it back.
    I'm only working 2 or 3 days a week myself and getting the payment through work. Iv no problem paying it back over time. I don't expect someone whos been working from home and paying PAYE all along to also pay for me.

    That's the point everyone pays the same percentage. Its not a handout its about propping up the economy, your income has been gauranteed to a limit by the taxpayer. I'd have absolutely no problem paying a levy for a couple of years, this unprecedented and effects the world. A levy across the board but what I wouldn't except is a rise in USC to pay for this, which is what will probably happen so the squeezed middle gets ****ed again.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Ok so you are not asking "How fair is it that I have to pay because someone else lost their job through no fault of my own. "

    but

    "How fair is it that someone else has to pay me because I had reduced hours in my job through no fault of my own."

    Such a strange response for someone who is benefitting from this. As someone paying for it, welcome.

    I'm willing to pay anything and everything back. I don't expect you or anyone else to do it for me.
    That's the point.
    You have handed over enough paye to fund this already. Keep your money stop giving it away to the government. You earned it, it's yours.
    You said you have been working throughout the crisis. I presume you did that all on your own. Nobody from government was down helping you out


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Spoken like a true communist. See how the country is shut down and people are living on government handouts because there is no work. It's a glimpse of your socialist paradise

    Sigh.

    Saying that there is no return from government/state services just demonstrates how utterly clueless the statement 'there is no return on investment' is.

    Space X survives on US government contracts and has been more-or-less handed the technology that was developed by NASA in the decades before it arrived.

    Anyway, let's not turn the tread into a 'libertarian' ****-fantasy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Tell me this what is the euro amount difference in the contributory pension (someone with a lifetime of contributions) and the non contributory pension ( someone who never did a days work) ?

    I actually agree with you on that one.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Sigh.

    Saying that there is no return from government/state services just demonstrates how utterly clueless the statement 'there is no return on investment' is.

    Space X survives on US government contracts and has been more-or-less handed the technology that was developed by NASA in the decades before it arrived.

    Anyway, let's not turn the tread into a 'libertarian' ****-fantasy.

    Keep doing the work and handing it over happily to the government if you choose. I'm sure every cent is put to good use and never wasted


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,833 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Keep doing the work and handing it over happily to the government if you choose. I'm sure every cent is put to good use and never wasted

    working people desperately struggling to afford deposits on houses or whatever and yet they are landing out billions to the welfare wasters , and where does much of that get spend, takeaways, pubs, bookies, drugs, cigarettes etc, lifes real essentials...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    And if your getting a payment through work, that's not a handout its your income which you will have to pay tax on also so makes absolutely no sense your argument you should pay it back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Beasty wrote: »
    You might think that, but there are plenty of examples where that did not work (in the case of Argentina a few times)

    We have been very fortunate in recent times with abnormally low interest rates. Neither you nor I, nor anyone else, knows if that is sustainable for the long term. I remember very well the days of rampant inflation. I remember my mortgage rate heading above single digits

    Some will claim it will never happen again, but that was only 30 years ago.

    The difference this time is the whole World is in the same boat, and how it drags itself out of this remains to be seen. However piling all the responsibility onto future generations is, in my view, totally reprehensible. Who will pay for the next time something like this happens? Shall we put our great grandchildren into hock?

    GDP growth? Where will this come from? It took the World decades to get over WWII. Plenty of austerity followed and that's what we face now whatever your ideological leanings are.
    Every country on Earth does it. What you don't do, is run up debts in a foreign currency - that's what Argentina did - making it a very different situation.

    Changes to the interest rate, don't affect the interest on the existing stock of Public Debt - and the ECB is completely incapable of increasing interest rates, because it would cause massive deflation if they did, and hasten the collapse of the Euro.

    The ECB's mission is to stave off deflation, and they've painted themselves into a corner by running interest rates so low - making monetary policy completely ineffective at fighting deflation - so the ECB are actually relying on massive government/fiscal spending to fight deflation, this time.

    30 years ago we had the Punt not the Euro.

    Again, by shrinking GDP in order to hold down Public Debt - that is making present and future generations pay the cost. Expanding Public Debt to maximize GDP, saves present and future generations from paying the cost - they'd face mass joblessness and a poorer economy otherwise..

    The cost is all about GDP being below maximum output. Public Debt is not a cost. By wanting to tank GDP, you're pushing the cost onto present generations and onto our children/grandchildren.

    WWII was followed by the Marshall Plan. A massive expansion of government spending to rebuild European economies and maximize GDP...You remember that it took until the 2000's before European countries paid off that Marshall Plan debt? (and benefited massively, due to it)


  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Sigh.

    Saying that there is no return from government/state services just demonstrates how utterly clueless the statement 'there is no return on investment' is.

    Space X survives on US government contracts and has been more-or-less handed the technology that was developed by NASA in the decades before it arrived.


    Did you just compare the Irish Public Service to ****ing NASA?


    What would you say is our equivalent?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    working people desperately struggling to afford deposits on houses or whatever and yet they are landing out billions to the welfare wasters , and where does much of that get spend, takeaways, pubs, bookies, drugs, cigarettes etc, lifes real essentials...

    It's not that they are giving it to people who don't work. The government even take that back again from recipients! Through sugar tax (proven to affect poor people more) one of Europe's highest alcohol tax, gambling tax, huge amount of tax on tobacco.
    Pretty much everything you listed the government take money from.

    But yet they leave multinationals based here alone because they employ so many people. They can put their hands in the employees pockets instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    ZX7R wrote: »
    Reality is Danno it will hopefully keep most workers in a job and wages in there pockets

    While on the face of it that sounds all good and fuzzy, the reality is that this money will have to be paid back. There are only two ways this can happen.

    1. Increased taxes to pay for Govt borrowings.
    2. Increased prices to pay for Business borrowings.

    Now, take a guess at the one person who is shovelling the cash to cover that bill.
    The worker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    purifol0 wrote: »
    Did you just compare the Irish Public Service to ****ing NASA?

    No. But to claim there is 'no return on investment' in our schools, universities, hospitals, roads, motorways, sanitation, power-grid, and so on is just ridiculous.

    Let's leave it that because it threatens to derail what could be an interesting thread.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    I'm willing to pay anything and everything back. I don't expect you or anyone else to do it for me.
    That's the point.
    You have handed over enough paye to fund this already. Keep your money stop giving it away to the government. You earned it, it's yours.
    You said you have been working throughout the crisis. I presume you did that all on your own. Nobody from government was down helping you out

    Take out the welfare and wage support package, who is going to pay for all the other costs of this pandemic?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    However much it's going to cost, my biggest concern is it isn't going to cost enough.

    When this is all over we're going to need something to bring the global economy out of its coma sharpish. That's not going to happen unless there's some heavy duty and global government interventions.

    The printing presses should be (metaphorically) going like the clappers churning out €/£/$ for helicopter money, infrastructure projects, incentives for new business, incentives for new business investment, incentives for new homes, the full monty.

    Think something like the Marshall Plan combined with the attitude of a Euromillions winner on steroids and you'll have the idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Ask Milton Friedman. McWilliams says here that there is no need to balance out the debt with the asset

    Yes we can. In fact, the greatest myth of economics is that printed money needs to correspond to some debt. The idea that money can only be printed by the central bank if there is a corresponding debt issued by the government against which the central bank has “permission” to print, is a stubborn one.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/helicopter-money-a-direct-economic-shot-in-the-arm-for-all-citizens-1.4202171

    ( anyway the money would be a liability of the banks, not the central bank. It is not bank reserve money i.e. monetary base).
    Fuck me, never thought I'd see the Irish Times citing Modern Money Theory (a good development).


  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭purifol0


    No. But to claim there is 'no return on investment' in our schools, universities, hospitals, roads, motorways, sanitation, power-grid, and so on is just ridiculous.

    Let's leave it that because it threatens to derail what could be an interesting thread.


    Ah here the public in general get zero back from hospitals and pay privately. Sanitation (bins) was privatised, so was Telecom Eireann, Irish Water & Bord Gais. Yet taxes remain high.



    The only service that hasnt been sold to some uber-conglomerate is the ESB but because they're a semi state they charge the 4th highest electricity rates in Europe.



    The public get screwed, not serviced by the organs of the state, which are run solely for the benefit of staff not citizens. That's why we were negative 200B even after 6 years of unbelievable growth before the covid crisis hit.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    rob316 wrote: »
    Take out the welfare and wage support package, who is going to pay for all the other costs of this pandemic?

    I can't argue with you there. A big expensive bill to be paid to Europe I'd imagine because of some sort of fund or loan. Europe will tack on some interest too for themselves.

    An article published in FT Deutschland and the Sunday independent describes how the government themselves have said that other countries profit from. Ireland's loans from the Eu and IMF.

    https://www.finegael.ie/eu-loan-is-no-bailout-its-financial-bullying/

    It's like a pyramid scheme. Money taken from those who earned it gets passed all of the way up


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Danno wrote: »
    While on the face of it that sounds all good and fuzzy, the reality is that this money will have to be paid back. There are only two ways this can happen.

    1. Increased taxes to pay for Govt borrowings.
    2. Increased prices to pay for Business borrowings.

    Now, take a guess at the one person who is shovelling the cash to cover that bill.
    The worker.
    As said earlier, government finances do not work like household finances. States roll-over their debts forever, and manage the Public Debt vs GDP level largely by growing GDP.

    It's extremely rare for a country to pay off the whole Public Debt, or even to consistently pay it down - and it's actually a very bad idea to do so, because it forces a greater reliance on Private Debt to keep the economy running at full potential - and Private Debt is far FAR more dangerous than Public Debt, because it helps pull economies into deflation during crises (as people have to keep paying down private debts).


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,643 ✭✭✭storker


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Spoken like a true communist. See how the country is shut down and people are living on government handouts because there is no work. It's a glimpse of your socialist paradise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


  • Registered Users Posts: 633 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    Anyone willing to guess what state assets this virus / debt is going to cost us?
    I reckon in the next 12 months, Irish Water etc will be top of national conversations. And the politicians will force it through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,833 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    bunderoon wrote: »
    Anyone willing to guess what state assets this virus / debt is going to cost us?
    I reckon in the next 12 months, Irish Water etc will be top of national conversations. And the politicians will force it through.

    Cant see them opening up ww3 over Irish water . What would it raise ?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 17,833 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    purifol0 wrote: »
    Ah here the public in general get zero back from hospitals and pay privately. Sanitation (bins) was privatised, so was Telecom Eireann, Irish Water & Bord Gais. Yet taxes remain high.



    The only service that hasnt been sold to some uber-conglomerate is the ESB but because they're a semi state they charge the 4th highest electricity rates in Europe.



    The public get screwed, not serviced by the organs of the state, which are run solely for the benefit of staff not citizens. That's why we were negative 200B even after 6 years of unbelievable growth before the covid crisis hit.

    Very similar to recently, despite booming economy for recent years, werent we running deficits or tiny surplus up to last budget ?


Advertisement