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How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,632 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    kyote00 wrote: »
    Listerine .... Listermint..... don't be so grumpy

    Poor effort. Remember text can out of context things especially when you add a curse. Horse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭kyote00


    sensitive and grumpy
    listermint wrote: »
    Poor effort. Remember text can out of context things especially when you add a curse. Horse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,632 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    kyote00 wrote: »
    sensitive and grumpy

    That's me. Anyway good chat. Off now too late to be dealing with privatising the entire country at this hour.


    Head off to the US for that stuff. Grand place to raise kids.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Is he gone?
    What a thread-wrecker.
    I think he said he was dropped on his head at one time, which may explain his pleasant demeanour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭.E_C_K_S.


    listermint wrote: »
    Revenue will claim it back from them next year .


    Read up fella the information is freely available.

    No one is getting a free ride here.

    That's what I assumed would happen but at what capacity does revenue have to recover this money from someone who is claiming the payment and no longer returning to Ireland?

    I have been trying to look it up but haven't seen anything solid on a case like this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    road_high wrote: »
    Plenty from the posters I read here. “Mothball as long as it takes” is very much the flavour of the month and someone else will pick up the tab whenever

    'The Economy' in today's sense didnt really exist until recently. We did without for 1000s of years. Even before the famine when we had a higher population there was way, way less economic activity. For many years money was just that pesky stuff you had to use for the odd few things you couldn't grow, dig up or salvage yourself. Now most of us would starve without it

    In recent decades we have a huge surge in the number of people dependent on the massive consumerist spending frenzy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,265 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Monetary policy by the ECB.

    It's that or settle in to a depression across Western Europe.

    Cheap loans won't solve this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭storker


    Here's an idea, gradual reduction because universal basic income is just another form of welfare. The tax payer covering the unemployed.

    It's actually the taxpayers covering themselves and the unemployed. The clue is in the word "Universal". Everybody would receive it and

    (a) it would mean that someone suddenly finding themselves unemployed would be already in receipt of their UBI and could concentrate on finding as new job and not having to stress over what to live on while waiting for their welfare payments to start to kick in
    (b) there would be huge savings in the cost of administration since everybody would get it automatically. No need to be means tested, no need for visits to dole offices etc
    (c) the welfare trap would be eliminated, since someone would always be better off by taking even a small part-time job and wouldn't have to balance the benefits of taking a job vs losing their UBI.

    The UBI would not be the same as welfare. If it was done properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,265 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Brian? wrote: »
    No one. The ECB will print more money.

    They should, they'll have to but looking at the reluctance from many EU finance ministers in the last week, you could not guarantee it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,149 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    The Eu can pay for it. Fire up the printing machine. Just don't tell countries outside the EU and pretend we are all getting hammered by austerity. Lodge the money into Paschal's account in the quiet

    This is probably what will happen


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    an extract from irish examiner of what eddie hobbs reckons will happen, it is exactly how I reckon it will pan out!

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html
    This crisis is unlikely to see a repeat of external creditor oversight but notwithstanding ECB supports for Irish bonds at close to zero rates, Ireland is limited to the scale at which the ECB will expand its balance sheet, competition from countries with greater needs such as Italy and general bond market pricing. Ireland looks to be entering the flood and fracture phase of the GPC with a centrist coalition.

    There is nothing to suggest that the Irish establishment will respond much differently. The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, an impulse that will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

    Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power.

    The crisis comes with the ongoing housing crisis which can only be met by finally tackling the gordian knot of the property market. Radical policies that rely on the public good argument will be deployed with less resistance.


    There will be no auto-enrolment for pensions, not with employers weakened and the workforce shrunken. Climate change will take a back seat to economic revival, limiting the imprint of carbon taxes and related burdens for a few years.

    The big issue is the shape of the tax base, how to widen it to cover the blackhole created by the GPC. The inbound Government may have no choice but to ‘temporarily’ return to heavy lifting through the USC.

    Private Pension assets are exposed to fresh appropriation if government borrowing capacity gets squeezed. This is low hanging fruit, captive and politically expedient because it was done before and doesn’t impact the public payroll.

    Wealth tax will become a big global issue, it is hoped this time that the unfolding Irish debate will cease using income as a measure of wealth and left wing parties cease dodging the plain fact that most domestic Irish wealth is in our homes and in the public sector pension scheme.

    After much heat I don’t think an asset-based wealth tax on the middle class will fly in Ireland, but property tax is here to stay.

    Eddie Hobbs: Fasten your seatbelt, the worst is yet to come

    There will be a refocus on the Apple Tax escrow for obvious reasons. The State is likely to change its position but in a nuanced manner quietly hoping that the EU wins its case.

    Europe will face a fresh existential crisis, at issue will be what to do with Italy which entered the GPC with the second highest debt to GDP outside of Greece and an unreformed economy.

    The Eurozone as a currency will once again be tested especially as the EU erupts into vigorous debate about common bonds and control of national budgets including setting taxes.

    A radical centrist response will be required to hold it together without losing further members. Macron is likely to lead. Unlike the GFC, this time the threat is universally shared even if the price is unequal due to differences in health responses and sovereign debt levels. What can you do?

    The first thing is to psychologically prepare for what is coming, the moments when the oxygen masks fall.

    There is no quick fix.

    The safety nets from State debt, reliefs and the ECB, all of it has a limit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    It's 50k when added up actually

    oh is that all? my bad...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Reign in your faux outrage there teddy.
    The other posters knew that I was not including the 700+K who lost their jobs in the last few weeks. I was obviously talking about the €21.1 billion that we paying to the social welfare budget this year prior to Covid-19. It is an astronomical amount for a small country, and it needs to be re-adjusted due to the economic calamity that we are now in.

    Either way it won't change dependency now will it. Ya think people long term unemployed will get a job along with recent unemployed. This sounds cruel but some sectors of employment need a knock to realise ya ain't all that truely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    I would have though this is quite simple, while we're printing money out the wahoo all those rich ***** who escaped their punishment from the paradise papers would be paying for this while their assets drop to nothing?
    Inequality was rising too fast.

    We just better hope we don't let it slip into Ukraine/Zimbabwe hyperinflation territory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,433 ✭✭✭touts


    No way Germany will let the ECB print money. Their Pension and investment funds can make too much profit off this.

    They made a fortune from the last bailout (caused when they gambled on the empty promises of private banks and then got the EU to force the Irish, Italians etc to underwrite it all). There is a reason Germany has the lowest death rate. They have the best hospitals. And most of those were paid for by asset stripping 3 or 4 of their EU "partners" 10 years ago. Imagine how great the fatherland will be in 10 years now they get to asset strip the whole Continent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    touts wrote: »
    No way Germany will let the ECB print money.

    Showdown over eurobonds looms in EU


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    2u2me wrote: »
    I would have though this is quite simple, while we're printing money out the wahoo all those rich ***** who escaped their punishment from the paradise papers would be paying for this while their assets drop to nothing?
    Inequality was rising too fast.

    We just better hope we don't let it slip into Ukraine/Zimbabwe hyperinflation territory.

    Is anybody threatens those exposed in the panama papers the cabal will deal with the threat

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/murdered-panama-papers-journalist-son-malta-crooks-daphne-caruana-galizia

    Daphne Caruana Galizia

    The son of the murdered Maltese investigative journalist and blogger Daphne Caruana Galizia has described finding parts of his mother’s body around the blazing car in which she died and attacked the island as a “mafia state” run by “crooks”.

    “My mother was assassinated because she stood between the rule of law and those who sought to violate it, like many strong journalists,” Matthew Caruana Galizia, who is also an investigative reporter, wrote in a moving and at times graphic Facebook post.

    But she was also targeted because she was the only person doing so. This is what happens when the institutions of the state are incapacitated: the last person left standing is often a journalist. Which makes her the first person left dead.”

    Dutch forensic experts and a team from the FBI were due to arrive in Malta to help police in the EU’s smallest state investigate the killing of Caruana Galizia, who led the Panama Papers investigation into corruption on the island.

    She died on Monday afternoon when her Peugeot was destroyed by an explosive device so powerful it blew the car into a nearby field. “I saw a small explosion coming from the car and I panicked,” said one witness, Frans Sant, who was driving in the opposite direction.

    “A few seconds later, around three to four seconds, there was another, larger explosion. The car continued coming down the hill, skidding at high speed, full of fire. The car missed me by around 10 feet. I tried to help but the fire was too much and the car ended up in the field,” he said.

    Several hundred people demonstrated outside the main law courts in the island’s fortress capital, Valletta, on Tuesday afternoon to demand justice for the 53-year-old journalist, described as a “one-woman WikiLeaks” whose blogs were as fiercely critical of the island’s politicians as they were of its organised crime gangs.

    “The state did not defend Daphne,” said Andrew Borg-Cardona, a prominent lawyer who works with the journalist’s husband. Michael Briguglio, a leading member of the island’s Green party, said: “This is a political murder because it clearly has a political context and the state did not protect a journalist who was in danger.”

    The European commission said it was horrified by the murder. Asked if it would open a procedure to check if Malta was meeting the EU’s rule of law standards, a spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, said an “outrageous act has happened and what matters now is that justice will be brought. This is what we need to see.”

    Matthew Caruana Galizia said he would never forget “running around the inferno in the field, trying to figure out a way to open the door, the horn of the car still blaring, screaming at two policemen who turned up with a single fire extinguisher to use it”.

    One of the policemen said: “Sorry, there is nothing we can do,” he wrote. “I looked down and there were my mother’s body parts all around me. I realised they were right, it was hopeless. ‘Who is in the car?’ they asked me. ‘My mother is in the car. She is dead. She is dead because of your incompetence.’”

    Caruana Galizia ran a hugely popular blog relentlessly highlighting cases of alleged high-level corruption among politicians across Malta’s party lines. “There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate,” she wrote in a post published barely half an hour before the bomb exploded.

    Police said the journalist had just left her home and was on a road near the village of Bidnija in northern Malta when the bomb detonated. Local media said she had reported receiving threats two weeks ago, although police officials denied receiving any complaint.

    Caruana Galizia’s most recent revelations pointed the finger at Malta’s prime minister, Joseph Muscat, and two of his closest aides, connecting offshore companies linked to the three men with the sale of Maltese passports and payments from the government of Azerbaijan.

    Muscat denounced the journalist’s killing on Monday, calling it a “barbaric attack on press freedom”. Muscat, who sued the journalist and won a snap election in June called as a vote of confidence to counter her allegations, said he would “not rest until I see justice done in this case”.

    While Caruana Galizia’s targets were mainly the ruling Labour party and its supporters, she had more recently turned her fire on Malta’s opposition whose leader, Adrian Delia, on Tuesday called on the prime minister to resign and the police chief and attorney general to be sacked.

    “The political blame for her death lies squarely in [Muscat’s] lap and he should shoulder responsibility for it,” Delia said. “Everything in this country has a price now, but … You can be sure that someone will have to pay for this death.”

    Caruana Galizia’s targets ranged from allegedly corrupt politicians to banks facilitating money laundering and the links between Malta’s online gaming industry and the mafia. Her recent work had focused particularly on revelations from the Panama Papers, a huge cache of leaked documents from the leading offshore law firm Mossack Fonseca.

    Matthew Caruana Galizia said in his Facebook post that his mother’s killing was “no ordinary murder and it was not tragic. Tragic is someone being run over by a bus. When there is blood and fire all around you, that’s war. We are a people at war against the state and organised crime, which have become indistinguishable.”

    He criticised “that clown of a prime minister”, making statements to parliament “about a journalist he spent over a decade demonising and harassing”, and highlighted a Facebook post by a police sergeant who shortly after the murder wrote: “Everyone gets what they deserve, cow dung! Feeling happy :)

    Caruana Galizia concluded: “Yes, this is where we are: a mafia state … where you will be blown to pieces for exercising your basic freedoms, only for the people who are supposed to have protected you to instead be celebrating it.”

    He said a “culture of impunity” had been allowed to flourish on the island after the prime minister “filled his office with crooks, then the police with crooks and imbeciles, then the courts with crooks and incompetents.

    “If the institutions were already working, there would be no assassination to investigate – and my brothers and I would still have a mother.”

    After an application by the dead journalist’s family, the investigating magistrate, Consuelo Scerri Herrera – who had come under criticism from Caruana Galizia in her blog and subsequently sued her – withdrew from the case on Tuesday


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Add it to the pile. Sure the Us is trillions in debt yet they plow on no problem. Trump and those before him had no issue lowering taxes. National debt doesn't seem to worry America.

    Debt really worried those US Republicans when Obama (and previously Clinton) were in charge.
    The Tories also seem to have forgotten about the levels of debt all of a sudden.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    pure.conya wrote: »
    Is anybody threatens those exposed in the panama papers the cabal will deal with the threat

    For how much outrage that exists in the world I'm still in awe at how little outrage there was for this story(Panama Papers).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Beasty wrote: »
    You do realise that all government expenditure is funded by "us". The State may take on debt, but has to pay the interest - that comes out of the tax take. they also have to repay that debt again out of public finances. If they don't repay that's pushing the problem onto future generations

    The government can cut spending - that means lower income for some (not just welfare income, but for example the earnings of public sector workers, or those external contractors they employ)

    They could raise taxes. "Tax the companies" I hear. That's fine but the companies are owned by people including funds that will pay our pensions. Tax them more and the wealth of individuals and pension funds will fall

    Ultimately all of this is paid for by "people", the only debate becomes "which" people and when do they have to stump up?
    Government finances don't work like household finances. States roll over their debts forever - and let GDP growth shrink the Public Debt vs GDP ratio.

    Expanding Public Debt to maximize GDP, saves current and future generations, by keeping the economy at full capacity - shrinking GDP to pay down Public Debt costs present and future generations, by shrinking the economy.

    Public Debt is not a 'problem' - it is a necessity for having a functioning economy - literally, because it is needed to keep the economy at full capacity in downturns.


    If we shrink the economy, then the average joe pays the cost, while the well-off and powerful are insulated from the costs (they will in fact expand their percentge of control over the remaining economy - just like last time) - if we keep the economy at full output by utilizing government spending, then there is almost no cost (because GDP is kept ticking over), and what costs there are are shared evenly, and we prevent the powerful/well-off from taking an even greater share of the economy.

    Cost is determined by GDP being below maximim output. Keep GDP close to maximum output, and you minimize the cost. The size of Public Debt doesn't represent cost - it is inversely related to the GDP cost, after all...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    2u2me wrote: »
    For how much outrage that exists in the world I'm still in awe at how little outrage there was for this story(Panama Papers).

    Most people won't even remember ever hearing about the panama papers, and most definitely won't know that the brave woman that exposed it all was simply blown up in a car bomb


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    pure.conya wrote: »
    Most people won't even remember ever hearing about the panama papers, and most definitely won't know that the brave woman that exposed it all was simply blown up in a car bomb

    the company is still going too. Don't screw with tax avoision on that scale, you're life not worth it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    Net.

    How much does a worker bee to earn to make that after tax?

    If said worker is married with 2 kids as an example, it's about 80k gross


  • Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭purifol0


    "The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, this will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

    Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power."

    www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html

    That's wot Ed reckons will happen over here. Probably cos its what happened 10 year ago in the last recession.

    Here take a gander: paybill-changes.png

    For context this graph shows that even after "savage cuts" the public sector and wanker bankers actually made more money (and received increments as per their pay scales) the year after the crash, while the entire private sector saw take home pay slashed. Not shown is the private sector job losses, but I can give you the total pubSec job losses right now: ZERO.

    Will history repeat?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    KyussB wrote: »
    Government finances don't work like household finances. States roll over their debts forever - and let GDP growth shrink the Public Debt vs GDP ratio.

    Expanding Public Debt to maximize GDP, saves current and future generations, by keeping the economy at full capacity - shrinking GDP to pay down Public Debt costs present and future generations, by shrinking the economy.

    Public Debt is not a 'problem' - it is a necessity for having a functioning economy - literally, because it is needed to keep the economy at full capacity in downturns.


    If we shrink the economy, then the average joe pays the cost, while the well-off and powerful are insulated from the costs (they will in fact expand their percentge of control over the remaining economy - just like last time) - if we keep the economy at full output by utilizing government spending, then there is almost no cost (because GDP is kept ticking over), and what costs there are are shared evenly, and we prevent the powerful/well-off from taking an even greater share of the economy.

    Cost is determined by GDP being below maximim output. Keep GDP close to maximum output, and you minimize the cost. The size of Public Debt doesn't represent cost - it is inversely related to the GDP cost, after all...

    Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?


    Not him but of course it isnt. Ireland is not a superpower. We cant print our own currency and we cant tell creditors to eff off. So what happens? Same as 2009; state assets are sold off. Problem is there isnt much left. Irish Water? Owned by Ervia. Bord Gais? Sold off in 2014 to an International consortium, part of the deal was that they keep the name to avoid bad publicity ala Irish water protests.



    Big debts mean big taxes. Stealth taxes like the sugar tax will become more common, maybe a broadband tax etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?
    As long as GDP grows exponentially, so does Public Debt over a long period of time - same with every economy on Earth.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Net.

    How much does a worker bee to earn to make that after tax?

    Much much more. Absolute basket case of a country but you all put up with it so don't expect it to change anytime soon


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,453 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    How much is this all going to cost..?

    100-billion.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    KyussB wrote: »
    As long as GDP grows exponentially, so does Public Debt over a long period of time - same with every economy on Earth.

    Public debt has been used to drive GDP but with interest rates at zero to maintain it,in a functioning economy GDP would drive public debt and interest rates would control this function.


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