How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

2u2me

tom1ie wrote: »

But this is a global pandemic so how does any government have any money to invest in bonds?
I would’ve thought all their cash would have been used up battling covid.

From mid January to Mid March (not sure about now) The market lost about 1/3 of it's value. From my understanding this means a lot of people sold up and liquified their assets meaning they have cash but are uncertain of where to invest it.

diggerdigger

tom1ie wrote: »

But this is a global pandemic so how does any government have any money to invest in bonds?
I would’ve thought all their cash would have been used up battling covid.

Governments are just participants in the money system, same as everyone. Ireland raised 6b last week, and has to put it somewhere till it spends it. It had bids of 30b+ so that's an indicator of the demand for government bonds. Bond demand comes from all aspects of the market, govt, funds, pensions funds, corporates, individuals, banks, etc.

Governments, and everyone else in the market needs to have a runway of cash or cash similar, even at the best of times.

all about the mane

Blueshoe wrote: »

Add it to the pile. Sure the Us is trillions in debt yet they plow on no problem. Trump and those before him had no issue lowering taxes. National debt doesn't seem to worry America.

They have a point. none of this 'debt' i sever going to be paid back. They just realised it first.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

The EU plan is 500bn approx.

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0409/1129708-covid-19-plan/

(1) The EU's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism will make €240 billion available in emergency credit lines. The money should go towards health spending and the facility will come to an end when the crisis is over.

This is loans to countries, with light conditions attached.

(2) The European Investment Bank will make €25 billion available, leveraged to up to €200 billion, for the corporate sector, which has faced a sudden economic slump.

This is loans from the EU bank, the EIB, to companies.


(3) A further €100bn will be made available by the European Commission to help companies retain workers so that exporters can rebound once the pandemic passes.

These loans are for work/wage subsidy schemes.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

The EU's fund is known as the ESM.

https://www.esm.europa.eu/about-us/intro

The ESM has a very, very strong credit rating.

It borrows on financial markets.

It lends on to member states that borrow from the ESM, with conditions attached to the loans.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

Yeah but who’s buying the bonds? Who has the money to do that?

Savers, credit unions, pension funds, etc.

Geuze

diggerdigger wrote: »

The bonds are issued with ECB backing ,at lower rates than some countries can borrow at. ECB backing make it a safer bet.There is huge walls of cash that have been taken out of the markets, due to panic sell off.

Please note that ESM bonds are not "backed by the ECB".

https://www.esm.europa.eu/investors/esm/funding-strategy

na1

tom1ie wrote: »

If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

Our private pension funds, and semi-state banks)))
No worries, if they've made a bad choice, we will bail them out via tax money!

tom1ie

Geuze wrote: »

The EU plan is 500bn approx.

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0409/1129708-covid-19-plan/

(1) The EU's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism will make €240 billion available in emergency credit lines. The money should go towards health spending and the facility will come to an end when the crisis is over.

This is loans to countries, with light conditions attached.

(2) The European Investment Bank will make €25 billion available, leveraged to up to €200 billion, for the corporate sector, which has faced a sudden economic slump.

This is loans from the EU bank, the EIB, to companies.


(3) A further €100bn will be made available by the European Commission to help companies retain workers so that exporters can rebound once the pandemic passes.

These loans are for work/wage subsidy schemes.

No I understand that. That’s grand. But where has this 500bn come from.
Is it liquified assets like another poster has said or is it that the ecb is now just printing more and more money.
If so does that not just devalue the euro?

tom1ie

Geuze wrote: »

Savers, credit unions, pension funds, etc.

500billion with in the Eu alone? What about the American bonds of 1trillion. Who’s buying them?

Ubbquittious

I'll email the minister and ask him is there any chance that we can simply skip over the endless dreadful aftermath that awaits and just go back to the way things were. If we all make a concerted effort to go mad partying and spending during what's left of the summer we can skip over the recession that awaits.

Whatever bag of misery the global economy is ready to punish us with we'll make up for it by spending locally. Hopefully this time the govt will have the cojones to tell d'EU to "shove it" with whatever bottomless pit they are readying for us to fill for the next few decades to pay for the Corona.

Look we the people are in charge here, if we all decide we won't pay the debt and we won't have the recession there won't be one. We should encourage other countries to do the same. Bad enough to have 1000s dieing without a protracted period of economic misery and high tax following it.

I'm still blue in the face from the last recession, bondholders this, property tax that, bailout the next thing. They can fcuk right off if they think I'm putting up with another decade or more of that nonsense

Graham

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If we all make a concerted effort to go mad partying and spending during what's left of the summer we can skip over the recession that awaits.

Bizarrely, that's exactly the approach that's needed.

Fred Cryton

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Varadkar has pledged no income tax increases to fund this, which means he's planning to introduce another tax or increase USC.

How much is this all expected to cost by the end and more importantly who will be hit to pay for it and how ?

The same people who pay for everything in this country - the narrow band of higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population).


The Shinners certainly won't be paying for anything. That's not what they do. They want everything for nothing and scream at you until they get it.

nthclare

The best thing to do is just plough on and don't let the system dictate your happiness and contentment, it sounds hippy dippy and sunshine lollipops and rainbows.
But fck it, do what's in front of us.
There's more of us than them.
They're nothing without us, nothing.

All that glitters ain't gold, I'll never validate my contentment and happiness on the system.

I'm more right than left, probably a moderate as the left need the right to get their free house's welfare and entitlements.
While the right sacrifices their brains,hard work ethics to pay for the left behinders...

Then the moderate try to get by with what they need and have...



Yin and Yang...

jrosen

The same people who always pay. We will be bailing ourselves out.

saabsaab

They could bring in a once off tax on savings/shares/bonds above a certain level say 10k, say 10-15%?


They say that Irish savings are 200-300. B Could cover it.

FVP3

Geuze wrote: »

Savers, credit unions, pension funds, etc.

Banks, Financial Institutions, the super rich, and pension funds in the main.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

No I understand that. That’s grand. But where has this 500bn come from.
Is it liquified assets like another poster has said or is it that the ecb is now just printing more and more money.
If so does that not just devalue the euro?

Good question.

I can give you some answers.

(1) The ESM borrows on financial markets.

https://www.esm.europa.eu/investors/esm/esm-bonds

So all the usual investors buy its bonds - banks, credit unions, life assurers, pension funds, etc.


(2) the EIB is a bank.

https://www.eib.org/en/index.htm

It doesn't seem to raise deposits?

It does issue bonds, so the same answer as the ESM.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

No I understand that. That’s grand. But where has this 500bn come from.
Is it liquified assets like another poster has said or is it that the ecb is now just printing more and more money.
If so does that not just devalue the euro?

The ESM and EIB lending are nothing directly to do with the ECB.

Geuze

saabsaab wrote: »

They could bring in a once off tax on savings/shares/bonds above a certain level say 10k, say 10-15%?


They say that Irish savings are 200-300. B Could cover it.

Expropriation?

A one-off wealth tax?

Irish household deposits are more like 100-120bn, although obviously all financial assets are worth more.

saabsaab

Geuze wrote: »

Expropriation?

A one-off wealth tax?

Irish household deposits are more like 100-120bn, although obviously all financial assets are worth more.

Yes. They say it is a war so everything is on the table. Would also encourage more spend.

Fred Cryton

saabsaab wrote: »

Yes. They say it is a war so everything is on the table.

Right, indeed. So i assume you're fine with we the people taking ownership of your home or car or bicycle or anything else you own. After all, it's a war and we need to take your wealth.

The Muppet

We do have 14+ Billion of Apple's Tax Money resting in our account. Personally I would use that to pay for majority of it.

saabsaab

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Right, indeed. So i assume you're fine with we the people taking ownership of your home or car or bicycle or anything else you own. After all, it's a war and we need to take your wealth.

If our homes cars and bicycles are taken, we would have to be rehoused, transported somehow.

saabsaab

The Muppet wrote: »

We do have 14+ Billion of Apple's Tax Money resting in our account. Personally I would use that to pay for majority of it.

Is that cleared yet? What is the situation with that in the courts now?

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

We do have 14+ Billion of Apple's Tax Money resting in our account. Personally I would use that to pay for majority of it.

You’re aptly named muppet. That money is in escrow, and not ours. Stop peddling lies.

2u2me

jrosen wrote: »

The same people who always pay. We will be bailing ourselves out.

I'm not so sure this time. They can't leverage us for anything else. This time the rich take the hit with inflation.

The Muppet

Dorakman wrote: »

You’re aptly named muppet. That money is in escrow, and not ours. Stop peddling lies.

Never heard that before , so original. We could always drop our appeal and admit we were giving the tax breaks.

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

Never heard that before , so original. We could always drop our appeal and admit we were giving the tax breaks.

Let’s say we do, and let’s say Apple for some bizarre reason don’t appeal on any level, the money still doesn’t belong to us. We’re being used as grubby tax collectors by the EU. What’s so hard to understand about that?

The Muppet

Dorakman wrote: »

Let’s say we do, and let’s say Apple for some bizarre reason don’t appeal on any level, the money still doesn’t belong to us. We’re being used as grubby tax collectors by the EU. What’s so hard to understand about that?

where did you get the impression i had difficulty understanding you?

Personally Id have been no problem with that scenario, after all its tax they should have been paying since they opened shop here. whats so hard to understand about that?

noodler

2u2me wrote: »

I'm not so sure this time. They can't leverage us for anything else. This time the rich take the hit with inflation.

The tax increases last time around disproportionately hot higher earners.

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

We do have 14+ Billion of Apple's Tax Money resting in our account. Personally I would use that to pay for majority of it.

The Muppet wrote: »

where did you get the impression i had difficulty understanding you?

Personally Id have been no problem with that scenario, after all its tax they should have been paying since they opened shop here. whats so hard to understand about that?

You literally said a few comments back that the money is resting in “our account” and that you’d use that to pay for the current crisis, which demonstrates a general lack of understanding about the entire case, even on a basic level.

Idbatterim

noodler wrote: »

The tax increases last time around disproportionately hot higher earners.

he means the rich that barely pay any tax. Not the high earners here on a pittance in the greater scheme of things, who are taken for a ride here...

The Muppet

Dorakman wrote: »

You literally said a few comments back that the money is resting in “our account” and that you’d use that to pay for the current crisis, which demonstrates a general lack of understanding about the entire case, even on a basic level.

Enlighten me.

noodler

Idbatterim wrote: »

he means the rich that barely pay any tax. Not the high earners here on a pittance in the greater scheme of things, who are taken for a ride here...

Could you elaborate?

Everyone always seems to think there is magic money available from someone who earns more than them

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

Enlighten me.

Sorry, I’m not open to new challenges.

The Muppet

Dorakman wrote: »

Sorry, I’m not open to new challenges.

Cheers, that was easy.

i would also revoke Leos promise to allow tax exiles stuck here in the current crisis off the hook. That could be worth another few billion.

Ubbquittious

noodler wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

Everyone always seems to think there is magic money available from someone who earns more than them

We have spent the last few decades importing cars, buying Chinese goods, borrowing foreign money. Yes we export a few pound of butter and have a few foreign mega corps that leave a bit more money in this country than they take out but we have become ferociously lazy. Nobody wants to make anything or fix anything anymore. Let's just dawdle in our office for another day and pay outsiders to do the real work, of course we are low on money if we carry on like this

tdf7187

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Varadkar has pledged no income tax increases to fund this, which means he's planning to introduce another tax or increase USC.

How much is this all expected to cost by the end and more importantly who will be hit to pay for it and how ?

The private sector pays, as always.The public sector, which apparently its now practically illegal to criticise, benefits.

2u2me

noodler wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

Everyone always seems to think there is magic money available from someone who earns more than them

I definitely meant the super rich. The type that appeard in the Panama papers and made a fortune from the last recession.

We were ourselves a tax haven for the massive corporations, they set up shop here to avoid paying higher taxes elsewhere.
A race to the bottom of governments looking to undercut each other as MNCs get disgustingly rich.

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

Cheers, that was easy.

i would also revoke Leos promise to allow tax exiles stuck here in the current crisis off the hook. That could be worth another few billion.

So you want to tax people who aren’t residents in the country to pay for this?

The Muppet

Dorakman wrote: »

So you want to tax people who aren’t residents in the country to pay for this?

Now who's having difficulty with their comprehension?

beggars_bush

tdf7187 wrote: »

The private sector pays, as always.The public sector, which apparently its now practically illegal to criticise, benefits.

Most Public Sector workers took significant pay cuts and changes to work practices
Its not about public v private sectors

saabsaab

tdf7187 wrote: »

The private sector pays, as always.The public sector, which apparently its now practically illegal to criticise, benefits.

Nonsense. Private sector banks had a large part in what caused the last recession.

nthclare

The popcorn's out... this is going to be the cart before the horse, or the horse before the cart...

It's looking good

Dorakman

The Muppet wrote: »

Now who's having difficulty with their comprehension?

You are. You’re intentionally misrepresenting an exemption designed to limit double taxation. I had to apply for a similar exemption in 2016 as I was contracting onsite in Scotland.

na1

noodler wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

Everyone always seems to think there is magic money available from someone who earns more than them

For example most of TV presenters on 200+k a year, are officially self employed, and not paying income tax on 200+k as an employee. They pay themselves a small 'wage' as a company directors. The rest of the money goes to their Ltd bank account

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

Cheers, that was easy.

i would also revoke Leos promise to allow tax exiles stuck here in the current crisis off the hook. That could be worth another few billion.

Dorakman wrote: »

You are. You’re intentionally misrepresenting an exemption designed to limit double taxation. I had to apply for a similar exemption in 2016 as I was contracting onsite in Scotland.

Am I ?

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

Cheers, that was easy.

i would also revoke Leos promise to allow tax exiles stuck here in the current crisis off the hook. That could be worth another few billion.

Dorakman wrote: »

You are. You’re intentionally misrepresenting an exemption designed to limit double taxation. I had to apply for a similar exemption in 2016 as I was contracting onsite in Scotland.

Am I ?

noodler

Ubbquittious wrote: »

We have spent the last few decades importing cars, buying Chinese goods, borrowing foreign money. Yes we export a few pound of butter and have a few foreign mega corps that leave a bit more money in this country than they take out but we have become ferociously lazy. Nobody wants to make anything or fix anything anymore. Let's just dawdle in our office for another day and pay outsiders to do the real work, of course we are low on money if we carry on like this

Right.