Saoradh dissident republican march in Dublin

Strumms

Time to play hardball with these vermin... freedom fighters no. I’d like to see the full muscle of our state employed to remove these rats and send them back to where they came. Freedom fighters are brave, intelligent, dignified humans. I include none of these traits with this cowardly infestation.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

Obviously

I don’t regard the north where the majority of people wish to remain with Britain as part of this country. If a majority from both sides of the border wish this for reunification, I’m happy to welcome them. But until then, the North is in the UK and every attempt by hardline republicans to press the matter raises tensions.

John2136

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don’t regard the north where the majority of people wish to remain with Britain as part of this country. If a majority from both sides of the border wish this for reunification, I’m happy to welcome them. But until then, the North is in the UK and every attempt by hardline republicans to press the matter raises tensions.

The North is part of this country and always has been, suddenly in 1922 a line was drawn out of spite by the British against the will of the vast majority of people in Ireland.

Sean.3516

Strumms wrote: »

Time to play hardball with these vermin... freedom fighters no. I’d like to see the full muscle of our state employed to remove these rats and send them back to where they came. Freedom fighters are brave, intelligent, dignified humans. I include none of these traits with this cowardly infestation.

While I share your disgust for groups like Saoradh, I believe in freedom of association and freedom of speech.

My standard for banning them is that they must have endorsed violence as a means of reunification with the north and/or they must be responsible for violence.

I don’t think either of these things are true in the case of Saoradh. In the aftermath of Lyra Mckees murder they did issue a condemnation of the violent act, albeit a ridiculous and mealy mouthed one about how she was caught in the cross fire when “freedom fighters” fired on “crown forces”.

Strumms

I was always pro unification but the more time has passed whatever about the political and moral arguments... do we want to be sharing a state with that lot. If the war was over tomorrow and the six counties returned to Irish rule... I just know that they’ll be into every vein of criminality, thuggery, intimidation and violence going. You can’t change people. They are wired a certain way...to be instigating conflict, to turn to violence and intimidation to solve any and all problems or conflicts. This has been proven by actions time and again.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

The North is part of this country and always has been, suddenly in 1922 a line was drawn out of spite by the British against the will of the vast majority of people in Ireland.

Geographically it is part of this country but not politically.

Just why do you think the Boundary Commision drew that line around the northern part of the country in 1922?

While the rest of the island may have been republican green, there was a big orange blob on that part of the map that would have been there regardless of lines drawn on a map. Had the british given it to us then (they never would have) do you think the unionists would have just went along with it? We would have had to wage an extremely bloody civil war against a fanatic and well armed foe that had been preparing for that war since the days of the Home Rule debate 10 years earlier.

Also, I think there is a double standard here in which you acknowledge the right to self determinism of republicans in the south but not unionists in the north.

Strumms

Sean.3516 wrote: »

While I share your disgust for groups like Saoradh, I believe in freedom of association and freedom of speech.

My standard for banning them is that they must have endorsed violence as a means of reunification with the north and/or they must be responsible for violence.

I don’t think either of these things are true in the case of Saoradh. In the aftermath of Lyra Mckees murder they did issue a condemnation of the violent act, albeit a ridiculous and mealy mouthed one about how she was caught in the cross fire when “freedom fighters” fired on “crown forces”.

They would have received more respect had they kept their mouths shut. But they don’t do classy or indeed respectful. This statement would have been approved by the top of their movement...that’s all you need to know right there. Her family and loved ones having to read that. It was nothing but an ill advised thick as pig shît damage limitation exercise. Which anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain can see.

John2136

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Geographically it is part of this country but not politically.

Just why do you think the Boundary Commision drew that line around the northern part of the country in 1922?

While the rest of the island may have been republican green, there was a big orange blob on that part of the map that would have been there regardless of lines drawn on a map. Had the british given it to us then (they never would have) do you think the unionists would have just went along with it? We would have had to wage an extremely bloody civil war against a fanatic and well armed foe that had been preparing for that war since the days of the Home Rule debate 10 years earlier.

Also, I think there is a double standard here in which you acknowledge the right to self determinism of republicans in the south but not unionists in the north.

So by your logic if the people of Derry decided they wanted to join the republic they should be allowed to do so? Or if the people of Cavan decided they want to join Britain we should let them do so? Self determinism and all that.

Plus what would the loyalists be fighting for? They would have had to wage war against Britain as well to get them to take them back.

John2136

Strumms wrote: »

I was always pro unification but the more time has passed whatever about the political and moral arguments... do we want to be sharing a state with that lot. If the war was over tomorrow and the six counties returned to Irish rule... I just know that they’ll be into every vein of criminality, thuggery, intimidation and violence going. You can’t change people. They are wired a certain way...to be instigating conflict, to turn to violence and intimidation to solve any and all problems or conflicts. This has been proven by actions time and again.

That is the effect of partition. You have a very narrow view, if unification happened there may be some problems but the when those problems are solved they would be solved for good.

We could come together as a country and solve these problems for good but the problems can never be solved while Britain is involved.

Sean.3516

Strumms wrote: »

They would have received more respect had they kept their mouths shut. But they don’t do classy or indeed respectful. This statement would have been approved by the top of their movement...that’s all you need to know right there. Her family and loved ones having to read that. It was nothing but an ill advised thick as pig shît damage limitation exercise. Which anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain can see.

While my natural inclination would be to agree with every word you just wrote, I’m loathe to assume all of that is true without evidence.

Strumms

John2136 wrote: »

That is the effect of partition. You have a very narrow view, if unification happened there may be some problems but the when those problems are solved they would be solved for good.

We could come together as a country and solve these problems for good but the problems can never be solved while Britain is involved.

My view is as wide as the seam of ignorance which permeates the core of that movement. Don’t blame the issue on partition.

John2136

Strumms wrote: »

My view is as wide as the seam of ignorance which permeates the core of that movement. Don’t blame the issue on partition.

In wider view of things all the problems the last nearly 100 years are down to partition.

eagle eye

I don't understand how anybody is angry about these marches given our history in 1916. The government spent a fortune celebrating the 100th anniversary of this only three years ago.
There's a little thing up north called the orange order who March every July. They are still doing it but you rarely hear anyone complain about that.
I'm not pro-nationalist, I'm anti-unification of the island of Ireland.
I too was horrified by what happened in Derry but these events are not linked in any way as far as I can tell.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

So by your logic if the people of Derry decided they wanted to join the republic they should be allowed to do so? Or if the people of Cavan decided they want to join Britain we should let them do so? Self determinism and all that.

Plus what would the loyalists be fighting for? They would have had to wage war against Britain as well to get them to take them back.

I believe Derry ought to have given to the Free State in 1922, however I don’t believe an intervention by the Free State to protect the right to determinism of one part of the north which would also have led to the same civil war I described in my above post would have been prudent. Derry was just too symbolic a city for the unionists. It wasn’t going to be given up.

If the fairest and most equitable possible outcome isn’t achievable without huge bloodshed, then sometimes you just have to settle for the best you can get.

In relation to the second part of that:
I know. The whole hypothetical was pointless since Britain would never have given us the north voluntarily in 1922 anyway. I inserted this in brackets. You’re the one saying that they should have given the north then. What do you think would have happened if they did?

John2136

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't understand how anybody is angry about these marches given our history in 1916. The government spent a fortune celebrating the 100th anniversary of this only three years ago.
There's a little thing up north called the orange order who March every July. They are still doing it but you rarely hear anyone complain about that.
I'm not pro-nationalist, I'm anti-unification of the island of Ireland.
I too was horrified by what happened in Derry but these events are not linked in any way as far as I can tell.

Irish history and culture is the cause of violence in Ireland, that's why so much of it was banned/illegal in the north up until the GFA.

Even the Irish flag was illegal in Northern Ireland, they used to raid people's houses for them.

ExoPolitic

Aegir wrote: »

You should try driving around the north with Dublin plates and an English accent.

This is my problem too, it's a difficult trip to make.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

if unification happened there may be some problems but the when those problems are solved they would be solved for good.

So the fact that some bloodshed and societal problems would be unavoidable with reunification means we should just get it over with now?

If a bloody reunification is unavoidable as things currently stand, the surely that’s an argument for waiting until it can be done without alot of people dying.

Sean.3516

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't understand how anybody is angry about these marches given our history in 1916. The government spent a fortune celebrating the 100th anniversary of this only three years ago.
There's a little thing up north called the orange order who March every July. They are still doing it but you rarely hear anyone complain about that.
I'm not pro-nationalist, I'm anti-unification of the island of Ireland.
I too was horrified by what happened in Derry but these events are not linked in any way as far as I can tell.

I agree. Everyone is eager to attribute the murder of the journalist to Saoradh when we have no evidence they were involved. That’s coming from someone who depises Saoradh.

Strumms

I wonder incidentally wtf if going on around Finglas/Ballymun the last hour or two, Garda chopper on scene and many cop cars with sirens making their way in that direction.

John2136

Sean.3516 wrote: »

So the fact that some bloodshed and societal problems would be unavoidable with reunification means we should just get it over with now?

If a bloody reunification is unavoidable as things currently stand, the surely that’s an argument for waiting until it can be done without alot of people dying.

I didn't say that, there wouldn't be murder and bloodshed I said there would be problems, there may be a couple of murders by some weird lunatics but that would be it.

Sheep breeder

Strumms wrote: »

I was always pro unification but the more time has passed whatever about the political and moral arguments... do we want to be sharing a state with that lot. If the war was over tomorrow and the six counties returned to Irish rule... I just know that they’ll be into every vein of criminality, thuggery, intimidation and violence going. You can’t change people. They are wired a certain way...to be instigating conflict, to turn to violence and intimidation to solve any and all problems or conflicts. This has been proven by actions time and again.

Agree with above and you missed what it’s all about making money from the above.

ogsneill

First time posting here.
Been reading through the above and fully agree with sentiments expressed.
Saoradh are the poisonous remnants of 20 years ago. They have zero mandate.

As for their charade on O Connell Steet ... this is nothing new. Many border towns in Louth, Armagh, Monaghan, Donegal, Fermanagh etc have been enduring such parades for many years --- yet no consternation from Dublin politicians and media. However, as soon these muppets infested Dublin on Saturday, Ministers Kehoe and Flanagan jump into action.

The reality is that there is already legislation to prevent anyone impersonating Oglaigh na Eireann on the form of the Defence Acts 1954 to present.

On the flip side, displays such as Saturday allow the Gardai to gain a good information picture on Who's Who among their ranks .... though I suspect that the real 'hard-men' were not those in Saturaday's parade.

Canis Lupus

Who really cares about a group of people playing make believe dress up? Surely someone dressing up as a soldier with the aviator sunglasses just deserves derision rather than any serious level of debate.

Tomas81

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Who really cares about a group of people playing make believe dress up? Surely someone dressing up as a soldier with the aviator sunglasses just deserves derision rather than any serious level of debate.

Deserves derision is that after they have shot dead an innocent journo or before. This group need to be outlawed

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't understand how anybody is angry about these marches given our history in 1916. The government spent a fortune celebrating the 100th anniversary of this only three years ago.
There's a little thing up north called the orange order who March every July. They are still doing it but you rarely hear anyone complain about that.
I'm not pro-nationalist, I'm anti-unification of the island of Ireland.
I too was horrified by what happened in Derry but these events are not linked in any way as far as I can tell.

All indicationa are that Saoradh is responsible for the murder of Lyra McKee. So yes, these events are entirely linked.

iebamm2580

Tomas81 wrote: »

Deserves derision is that after they have shot dead an innocent journo or before. This group need to be outlawed

Proof for that claim?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There will be no peace in Ireland until we deal with partition.

What horse $hite is this?

Partition has been dealt with in the Good Friday Agreement.

Until such time that there appears to be majority support for NI to join the Republic as a United Ireland via a border poll then NI will remain part of Britain.

That.Is.It!

All that crap about 'Ireland not being at peace, if it's not free', blah blah blah, is just a way for some Irish nationalist to excuse away responsibility to some other factor or group. ie. da Brits, or Unionists.

No, the responsibility lies only with those people who shot that poor woman dead, under the guise of fighting for Ireland's freedom. We had 30 odd years of that type of thinking, but alas we still have knuckledraggers around the place condoning and supporting this level of thinking.

Church on Tuesday

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Who really cares about a group of people playing make believe dress up? Surely someone dressing up as a soldier with the aviator sunglasses just deserves derision rather than any serious level of debate.

This.

I think it's hilarious TBH. If a bunch of unfit man children want to dress up and play soldier and waste their bank holiday at that craic then that's their problem.

I'd just be uneasy at the message it would convey to tourists looking on.

Atoms for Peace

People are having too much of a hissy fit over a very fringe group. These types of marches have been going on for years with no media coverage and nobody cared.
Let them have their poxy parades in the open.

eagle eye

batgoat wrote:

All indicationa are that Saoradh is responsible for the murder of Lyra McKee. So yes, these events are entirely linked.

New IRA is believed to be responsible.