Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

There were more manufacturers in F1 prior to these power units, and the likes of Porsche and VW were turned off by them.

It's true that Mercedes threatened to quit if they didn't introduce these power units, but that would have been pretty beneficial to the sport in hindsight.

Edit: Also my definition of cutting edge is "most fit for purpose" - these power units are heavier and slower than what came before and only exist because the word "hybrid" was of marketing benefit, and because Mercedes invested a ton of money in getting a head start and used political will to force it through. The laptimes are only faster because of the huge amount of extra downforce they put on the cars to compensate for the subpar engines, which in turn has destroyed racing. The headline power numbers get quoted a lot for publicity, and they are powerful, but that ignores that they only have that power some of the time and are underpowered while they harvest, and none of it makes up for the enormous extra weight that they carry through corners, which reduces cornering speed and puts more load on the tyres and discourages drivers from pushing.

The situation vis a vis manufacturers was pretty much the same before the introduction of the current power units i.e. Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault and a couple of now defunct back marker teams using Cosworth. You could argue that its got better now with Honda entering as an engine supplier and Renault running a proper works team. The problems with fragile tyres also pre-date the current PUs.

I do agree with your points about them being too complicated, too expensive, too heavy etc though. I am not sure the current restrictions on PU component usage add much either.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

There were more manufacturers in F1 prior to these power units, and the likes of Porsche and VW were turned off by them.

It's true that Mercedes threatened to quit if they didn't introduce these power units, but that would have been pretty beneficial to the sport in hindsight.

Edit: Also my definition of cutting edge is "most fit for purpose" - these power units are heavier and slower than what came before and only exist because the word "hybrid" was of marketing benefit, and because Mercedes invested a ton of money in getting a head start and used political will to force it through. The laptimes are only faster because of the huge amount of extra downforce they put on the cars to compensate for the subpar engines, which in turn has destroyed racing. The headline power numbers get quoted a lot for publicity, and they are powerful, but that ignores that they only have that power some of the time and are underpowered while they harvest, and none of it makes up for the enormous extra weight that they carry through corners, which reduces cornering speed and puts more load on the tyres and discourages drivers from pushing.

That's a bit out of context. The manufacturers were fleeing long before the new power units. The recession caused Honda to pull out for example. VW and Porsche were both interested until the VW scandal and Porsche failed to get the rule changes it wanted (after seeing the Honda experience).

By coincidence if Mercedes were to leave the competition would be better. But now you're going against the argument that the sport needs manufacturers to create engines and invest money.

On the other hand, FE is hoovering up manufacturers. That's brand new technology and they're making great strides relatively quickly compared to F1. The rate of being able ot bring that technology through to road cars must be favourable to FE. The electric car just has more development low hanging fruit.

They're in a difficult predicament because the current manufacturers have all said they'll pull out if they move away from future technology.

vectra

Alfa Romeo technical director Simone Resta will leave the team at the end of the month to rejoin his ex-Formula 1 employer Ferrari

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alfa-romeo-technical-director-resta-ferrari/4496708/

Lets just hope Alfa do not start going backwards

tipp_tipp_tipp

Interesting to see the return of ground effect aerodynamics. I remember well that the 2009 rule changes deliberately avoided this. Pat Symonds headed up the team that developed those rules, their conclusion at the time was ground effect cars would actually be worse affected in dirty air. Seemed pretty counter intuitive at the time, so at least we will finally get to see they were right or not.

In IndyCar they can pack race at 240mph with tiny Gurney flaps on the wings thanks to the ground effect.

pjohnson

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

PopePalpatine

OSI wrote: »

Surprised to see a return to ground effect. I thought it was considered too dangerous?

They didn't have the halo in 1983. :pac:

Harika

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1151414383140069377/photo/1

Williams getting closer and Mercedes losing advantage.

skipper_G

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

I heard those rumours alright, I think there's merit to it. Grosjean is a goner, Perez wasn't the only name I heard mentioned, Hulk is also in the mix if Renault go with Ocon

AMKC

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

Warning Formula-E Grosjean is going to cause havoc lol.

H3llR4iser

The new regulations with ground effect and simple wings are theoretically the right way to go (I've been saying this for years); The implementation can however be a turning point or spell absolute disaster. There needs to be a strict, no compromise ruling about the cars having no aero devices other than the front and rear wings (the wording on it will be crucial), or the engineers WILL come up with ways to ramp back the loss of downforce / airflow smoothing. Also, the FIA/FOM better be prepared to either have hyper strict rules dictating the very shape of wings into the smallest minutia, or even better - go full on "spec wings" on the subject.

In the end the goal shouldn't be to keep the current level of downforce with less complex aero, the goal should be make the cars lose a bit of grip and become slower again; Slower cars that are not always on the edge lead to better, closer racing. We've seen this in the past, we see this happening right now - Indycars are about 14 seconds a lap slower on the COTA. Fans crying that the cars aren't "fast enough" have been proven to be in the wrong time and again.

pjohnson

Now Red Bull are sueing Rich Energy

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.


Now Ocon is supposedly being lined up to replace Grosjean in Germany. Naturally this would be messy to sort out this quickly.

H3llR4iser

pjohnson wrote: »

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.


Now Ocon is supposedly being lined up to replace Grosjean in Germany. Naturally this would be messy to sort out this quickly.

In all fairness, even 'though Magnussen has more points they both only scored twice; Also, of the two, Magnussen is by far the more controversial one - he's not exactly well liked by the rest of the grid due to his shenanigans that'd make Verstappen look like a little cherub.

And of all possible replacements, Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate and costed Force India a relatively assured 1-2 in Baku 2017...that can't be good for poor old Guenther's coronaries.

pjohnson

H3llR4iser wrote: »

In all fairness, even 'though Magnussen has more points they both only scored twice; Also, of the two, Magnussen is by far the more controversial one - he's not exactly well liked by the rest of the grid due to his shenanigans that'd make Verstappen look like a little cherub.

And of all possible replacements, Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate and costed Force India a relatively assured 1-2 in Baku 2017...that can't be good for poor old Guenther's coronaries.

I'd imagine Ocon would be messy aswell as he is probably eyeing up Hulkenberg's Renault seat for 2020 (iirc Hulks contract ends this year) plus is currently Mercs reserve driver so if Haas were looking for a mid season driver I'd have thought they'd go for one of the Ferrari boys (Hartley or Wehrlein). Especially since FE is over Wehrlein would be available.


Grosjean has been unlucky this year. Magnussen caused that puncture at Silverstone, was it Spain where Grosjean kept getting shoved off track by Magnussen and Günther ominously said "Kevin the first you speak to is me". Grosjean also got screwed in qualifying at both Monaco (Gasly randomly slow down the hill) and Baku (Leclerc (or was it Kubica?) causing yellow flags during his final lap.

If Günther was angry enough to want a driver fired I'd have thought it'd be Magnussen not Grosjean.

chicorytip

pjohnson wrote:

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.

Gunther is in charge so the buck stops with him. Sacking either driver would be a mistake at this stage of the season. The issue for Steiner to deal with is lack of consistency in performance, some days good some days awful. Driver error is not the major contributory factor in that regard.

Jordan 199

Melbourne to remain on the calendar until the end of 2025.

PopePalpatine

Did anyone else check out this week's Beyond the Grid episode with Derek Warwick yet? I thought it was a decent listen.

I did cringe/wince a bit when the topic switched so suddenly to his brother's death.

Dont be at yourself

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Did anyone else check out this week's Beyond the Grid episode with Derek Warwick yet? I thought it was a decent listen.

I did cringe/wince a bit when the topic switched so suddenly to his brother's death.

Thought it was a great listen. Just incredible guts to drive those cars to the limit in those days. Having only got into the sport as a 90s kid, had never heard of Warwick but he had some great stories. Loved the Alan Jones one too.

Would love to see HBO make a drama series on F1. So many characters and so much drama.

El_Duderino 09

Jordan 199 wrote: »

Melbourne to remain on the calendar until the end of 2025.

Groan. Terrible race every year. Reliably dreadful procession. Worst choice for the first race. They ought to bury it mid season. The first race gets so much attention that it should be a complete banger of a race.

Australia is all image. It sounds exotic but the race is a massive disappointment for my prospective new fan -and any old fan likewise.

muckwarrior

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate

Exaggerate much?

As for Grosjean, he's been in F1 a long time now and the only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency. At this stage it's clear he'll never be a top driver. Time to move aside and let someone else have a chance.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/WhyteBikes/status/1152266244214669313

For context, this team were sponsored by Rich Energy.

pyramuid man

pjohnson wrote: »

I'd have thought they'd go for one of the Ferrari boys (Hartley or Wehrlein). Especially since FE is over Wehrlein would be available.

If Günther was angry enough to want a driver fired I'd have thought it'd be Magnussen not Grosjean.

I would love to see Wehrlein back in F1. He was solid in a sauber with a year old engine and outperformed Ericsson every race from what I remember.

Though FE can be a bit of a crashfest so it may suit Grosjean.

mickdw

Brilliant.
Whyte Bikes playing a blinder.
They could not buy the publicity rich energy has brought them. The outstanding compensation is a minor detail I'd imagine.
The longer this goes on, the more it looks like some kind of elaborate hoax / marketing campaign.

TCP/IP

Finally we hear how to fix F1.
https://youtu.be/QdalHDSQRDk

El_Duderino 09

Getting our ducks in a row for Silverstone next year. Does anyone know if they do early bird discounts for booking early?

Wanderer78

TCP/IP wrote:

Finally we hear how to fix F1.

Not really

TCP/IP

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Not really

I think you missed the sense of humour.

Wanderer78

TCP/IP wrote: »

I think you missed the sense of humour.

not really, hes was once funny, but now....

TCP/IP

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not really, hes was once funny, but now....

Is still funny. He makes great points.