Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

Anjobe · 17-07-2019 12:49pm

quokula wrote: »

There were more manufacturers in F1 prior to these power units, and the likes of Porsche and VW were turned off by them.

It's true that Mercedes threatened to quit if they didn't introduce these power units, but that would have been pretty beneficial to the sport in hindsight.

Edit: Also my definition of cutting edge is "most fit for purpose" - these power units are heavier and slower than what came before and only exist because the word "hybrid" was of marketing benefit, and because Mercedes invested a ton of money in getting a head start and used political will to force it through. The laptimes are only faster because of the huge amount of extra downforce they put on the cars to compensate for the subpar engines, which in turn has destroyed racing. The headline power numbers get quoted a lot for publicity, and they are powerful, but that ignores that they only have that power some of the time and are underpowered while they harvest, and none of it makes up for the enormous extra weight that they carry through corners, which reduces cornering speed and puts more load on the tyres and discourages drivers from pushing.

The situation vis a vis manufacturers was pretty much the same before the introduction of the current power units i.e. Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault and a couple of now defunct back marker teams using Cosworth. You could argue that its got better now with Honda entering as an engine supplier and Renault running a proper works team. The problems with fragile tyres also pre-date the current PUs.

I do agree with your points about them being too complicated, too expensive, too heavy etc though. I am not sure the current restrictions on PU component usage add much either.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 2:07pm

quokula wrote: »

There were more manufacturers in F1 prior to these power units, and the likes of Porsche and VW were turned off by them.

It's true that Mercedes threatened to quit if they didn't introduce these power units, but that would have been pretty beneficial to the sport in hindsight.

Edit: Also my definition of cutting edge is "most fit for purpose" - these power units are heavier and slower than what came before and only exist because the word "hybrid" was of marketing benefit, and because Mercedes invested a ton of money in getting a head start and used political will to force it through. The laptimes are only faster because of the huge amount of extra downforce they put on the cars to compensate for the subpar engines, which in turn has destroyed racing. The headline power numbers get quoted a lot for publicity, and they are powerful, but that ignores that they only have that power some of the time and are underpowered while they harvest, and none of it makes up for the enormous extra weight that they carry through corners, which reduces cornering speed and puts more load on the tyres and discourages drivers from pushing.

That's a bit out of context. The manufacturers were fleeing long before the new power units. The recession caused Honda to pull out for example. VW and Porsche were both interested until the VW scandal and Porsche failed to get the rule changes it wanted (after seeing the Honda experience).

By coincidence if Mercedes were to leave the competition would be better. But now you're going against the argument that the sport needs manufacturers to create engines and invest money.

On the other hand, FE is hoovering up manufacturers. That's brand new technology and they're making great strides relatively quickly compared to F1. The rate of being able ot bring that technology through to road cars must be favourable to FE. The electric car just has more development low hanging fruit.

They're in a difficult predicament because the current manufacturers have all said they'll pull out if they move away from future technology.

vectra · 17-07-2019 2:14pm

Alfa Romeo technical director Simone Resta will leave the team at the end of the month to rejoin his ex-Formula 1 employer Ferrari

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alfa-romeo-technical-director-resta-ferrari/4496708/

Lets just hope Alfa do not start going backwards

tipp_tipp_tipp · 17-07-2019 2:53pm

Interesting to see the return of ground effect aerodynamics. I remember well that the 2009 rule changes deliberately avoided this. Pat Symonds headed up the team that developed those rules, their conclusion at the time was ground effect cars would actually be worse affected in dirty air. Seemed pretty counter intuitive at the time, so at least we will finally get to see they were right or not.

17-07-2019 3:41pm

In IndyCar they can pack race at 240mph with tiny Gurney flaps on the wings thanks to the ground effect.

pjohnson · 17-07-2019 5:22pm

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

PopePalpatine · 17-07-2019 5:25pm

OSI wrote: »

Surprised to see a return to ground effect. I thought it was considered too dangerous?

They didn't have the halo in 1983. :pac:

Harika · 17-07-2019 5:26pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1151414383140069377/photo/1

Williams getting closer and Mercedes losing advantage.

skipper_G · 17-07-2019 7:16pm

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

I heard those rumours alright, I think there's merit to it. Grosjean is a goner, Perez wasn't the only name I heard mentioned, Hulk is also in the mix if Renault go with Ocon

AMKC · 17-07-2019 10:23pm

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

Warning Formula-E Grosjean is going to cause havoc lol.

H3llR4iser · 18-07-2019 11:16am

The new regulations with ground effect and simple wings are theoretically the right way to go (I've been saying this for years); The implementation can however be a turning point or spell absolute disaster. There needs to be a strict, no compromise ruling about the cars having no aero devices other than the front and rear wings (the wording on it will be crucial), or the engineers WILL come up with ways to ramp back the loss of downforce / airflow smoothing. Also, the FIA/FOM better be prepared to either have hyper strict rules dictating the very shape of wings into the smallest minutia, or even better - go full on "spec wings" on the subject.

In the end the goal shouldn't be to keep the current level of downforce with less complex aero, the goal should be make the cars lose a bit of grip and become slower again; Slower cars that are not always on the edge lead to better, closer racing. We've seen this in the past, we see this happening right now - Indycars are about 14 seconds a lap slower on the COTA. Fans crying that the cars aren't "fast enough" have been proven to be in the wrong time and again.

pjohnson · 18-07-2019 3:13pm

Now Red Bull are sueing Rich Energy

pjohnson · 18-07-2019 3:16pm

pjohnson wrote: »

There was a rumour after Silverstone/Formula E finale that Lotterer was gunna leave DS Techeetah to go to Porsche. His supposed replacement at DS Techeetah will be Grosjean with Perez then expected to join Haas as Grosjean's replacement.

Lotterer has today left DS Techeetah to join Porsche.

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.

Now Ocon is supposedly being lined up to replace Grosjean in Germany. Naturally this would be messy to sort out this quickly.

H3llR4iser · 18-07-2019 3:32pm

pjohnson wrote: »

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.

Now Ocon is supposedly being lined up to replace Grosjean in Germany. Naturally this would be messy to sort out this quickly.

In all fairness, even 'though Magnussen has more points they both only scored twice; Also, of the two, Magnussen is by far the more controversial one - he's not exactly well liked by the rest of the grid due to his shenanigans that'd make Verstappen look like a little cherub.

And of all possible replacements, Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate and costed Force India a relatively assured 1-2 in Baku 2017...that can't be good for poor old Guenther's coronaries.

pjohnson · 18-07-2019 3:49pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

In all fairness, even 'though Magnussen has more points they both only scored twice; Also, of the two, Magnussen is by far the more controversial one - he's not exactly well liked by the rest of the grid due to his shenanigans that'd make Verstappen look like a little cherub.

And of all possible replacements, Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate and costed Force India a relatively assured 1-2 in Baku 2017...that can't be good for poor old Guenther's coronaries.

I'd imagine Ocon would be messy aswell as he is probably eyeing up Hulkenberg's Renault seat for 2020 (iirc Hulks contract ends this year) plus is currently Mercs reserve driver so if Haas were looking for a mid season driver I'd have thought they'd go for one of the Ferrari boys (Hartley or Wehrlein). Especially since FE is over Wehrlein would be available.

Grosjean has been unlucky this year. Magnussen caused that puncture at Silverstone, was it Spain where Grosjean kept getting shoved off track by Magnussen and Günther ominously said "Kevin the first you speak to is me". Grosjean also got screwed in qualifying at both Monaco (Gasly randomly slow down the hill) and Baku (Leclerc (or was it Kubica?) causing yellow flags during his final lap.

If Günther was angry enough to want a driver fired I'd have thought it'd be Magnussen not Grosjean.

chicorytip · 18-07-2019 8:52pm

pjohnson wrote:

In a further update it is now rumoured (the source itself has been verified on Reddit but NOT the story) that Steiner was so furious after Silverstone he not only lectured both drivers but contacted Gene Haas to be allowed fire a driver IMMEDIATELY.

Gunther is in charge so the buck stops with him. Sacking either driver would be a mistake at this stage of the season. The issue for Steiner to deal with is lack of consistency in performance, some days good some days awful. Driver error is not the major contributory factor in that regard.

Jordan 199 · 18-07-2019 8:54pm

Melbourne to remain on the calendar until the end of 2025.

PopePalpatine · 18-07-2019 9:06pm

Did anyone else check out this week's Beyond the Grid episode with Derek Warwick yet? I thought it was a decent listen.

I did cringe/wince a bit when the topic switched so suddenly to his brother's death.

Dont be at yourself · 18-07-2019 9:12pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Did anyone else check out this week's Beyond the Grid episode with Derek Warwick yet? I thought it was a decent listen.

I did cringe/wince a bit when the topic switched so suddenly to his brother's death.

Thought it was a great listen. Just incredible guts to drive those cars to the limit in those days. Having only got into the sport as a 90s kid, had never heard of Warwick but he had some great stories. Loved the Alan Jones one too.

Would love to see HBO make a drama series on F1. So many characters and so much drama.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-07-2019 9:35pm

Jordan 199 wrote: »

Melbourne to remain on the calendar until the end of 2025.

Groan. Terrible race every year. Reliably dreadful procession. Worst choice for the first race. They ought to bury it mid season. The first race gets so much attention that it should be a complete banger of a race.

Australia is all image. It sounds exotic but the race is a massive disappointment for my prospective new fan -and any old fan likewise.

muckwarrior · 19-07-2019 11:55am

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Ocon...the driver who spent most of his F1 career crashing into his team mate

Exaggerate much?

As for Grosjean, he's been in F1 a long time now and the only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency. At this stage it's clear he'll never be a top driver. Time to move aside and let someone else have a chance.

Frank Bullitt · 19-07-2019 6:17pm

https://twitter.com/WhyteBikes/status/1152266244214669313

For context, this team were sponsored by Rich Energy.

pyramuid man · 19-07-2019 11:11pm

pjohnson wrote: »

I'd have thought they'd go for one of the Ferrari boys (Hartley or Wehrlein). Especially since FE is over Wehrlein would be available.

If Günther was angry enough to want a driver fired I'd have thought it'd be Magnussen not Grosjean.

I would love to see Wehrlein back in F1. He was solid in a sauber with a year old engine and outperformed Ericsson every race from what I remember.

Though FE can be a bit of a crashfest so it may suit Grosjean.

mickdw · 19-07-2019 11:18pm

Brilliant.
Whyte Bikes playing a blinder.
They could not buy the publicity rich energy has brought them. The outstanding compensation is a minor detail I'd imagine.
The longer this goes on, the more it looks like some kind of elaborate hoax / marketing campaign.

TCP/IP · 20-07-2019 2:09pm

Finally we hear how to fix F1.
https://youtu.be/QdalHDSQRDk

El_Duderino 09 · 21-07-2019 9:30am

Getting our ducks in a row for Silverstone next year. Does anyone know if they do early bird discounts for booking early?

Wanderer78 · 21-07-2019 9:35am

TCP/IP wrote:

Finally we hear how to fix F1.

Not really

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 10:10am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Not really

I think you missed the sense of humour.

Wanderer78 · 21-07-2019 10:35am

TCP/IP wrote: »

I think you missed the sense of humour.

not really, hes was once funny, but now....

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 11:04am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not really, hes was once funny, but now....

Is still funny. He makes great points.

Wanderer78 · 21-07-2019 11:09am

TCP/IP wrote: »

Is still funny. He makes great points.

great points such as?

El_Duderino 09 · 21-07-2019 11:54am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

great points such as?

Going back to the 70s to see villeneuve vs arnoux? I hear the summer holidays were always sunny back then too. The fantasy of the good ole days is the easiest to sell.

I was never a fan of Clarkson so I can't really judge if this is some of his good comedy or not.

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 12:52pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

great points such as?

Well let’s start with the following:

Cars can’t race
No competition
Stewards ruining racing in the supposed name of safety
Terrible tracks
Public losing interest

You would need to be stupid not to see this.

skipper_G · 21-07-2019 1:12pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Well let’s start with the following:

Cars can’t race
No competition
Stewards ruining racing in the supposed name of safety
Terrible tracks
Public losing interest

You would need to be stupid not to see this.

But they're the same complaints plenty of people have, some of them may be valid but they are not great points at all. He offers no critical insight into how any of those could be remedied except for hyperbolic nonsense like 5 bonus points for dangerous driving, abolishing stewards and telling Mercedes and Ferrari to **** off. The whole clip was pointless. There's plenty wrong with F1, but Jeremy Clarkson is hardly going to solve those.

Inviere · 21-07-2019 1:19pm

skipper_G wrote: »

But they're the same complaints plenty of people have, some of them may be valid but they are not great points at all. He offers no critical insight into how any of those could be remedied except for hyperbolic nonsense like 5 bonus points for dangerous driving, abolishing stewards and telling Mercedes and Ferrari to **** off. The whole clip was pointless. There's plenty wrong with F1, but Jeremy Clarkson is hardly going to solve those.

You're taking it too literal, he's obviously being a bit hyperbolic. I think it's important though that someone fairly high profile shares the same thoughts that many fans do, it's important that people are vocal about the direction F1 has taken.

the_pen_turner · 21-07-2019 1:21pm

his crazy solutions is not the answer but his critisism is valid

Wanderer78 · 21-07-2019 1:29pm

oh theres no question f1 is in trouble, but this has been very long in the making. i personally think corporatizing sports is lethal, a similar problem has been occurring in major league football globally. its very hard to deal with a sport when big money gets involved, it somewhat sterilizes the sport

skipper_G · 21-07-2019 1:32pm

Inviere wrote: »

You're taking it too literal, he's obviously being a bit hyperbolic. I think it's important though that someone fairly high profile shares the same thoughts that many fans do, it's important that people are vocal about the direction F1 has taken.

I'm not taking Clarkson's piece as literal at all. I know his style is to be over the top, brash and hyperbolic, exactly what the piece was. But to say he raised great points is just false. He sounds like every other person moaning about the sport. He didn't bother to watch Silverstone and instead watched the tennis. That's his mistake, because he missed a great race.

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 1:40pm

skipper_G wrote: »

I'm not taking Clarkson's piece as literal at all. I know his style is to be over the top, brash and hyperbolic, exactly what the piece was. But to say he raised great points is just false. He sounds like every other person moaning about the sport. He didn't bother to watch Silverstone and instead watched the tennis. That's his mistake, because he missed a great race.

A great race are you crazy it was a procession a terrible race more like it. Austria was a great race. Another Merc procession is not a great race.

the_pen_turner · 21-07-2019 1:41pm

skipper_G wrote: »

I'm not taking Clarkson's piece as literal at all. I know his style is to be over the top, brash and hyperbolic, exactly what the piece was. But to say he raised great points is just false. He sounds like every other person moaning about the sport. He didn't bother to watch Silverstone and instead watched the tennis. That's his mistake, because he missed a great race.

there are good points but they are not new points. hopefully having someone like clarkson saying it will give it more weight.

skipper_G · 21-07-2019 1:55pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

A great race are you crazy it was a procession a terrible race more like it. Austria was a great race. Another Merc procession is not a great race.

I respectfully disagree, from the rate the race thread on this forum it had an average rating of 7.2 and 77% voted it 7 or above.

Was it a predictable winner? Yes.
Was it a terrible race? Absolutely not.

They are two different things, F1 needs to be more competitive undoubtedly. It's not healthy that 70% of the entrants can't compete for wins. But it's impossible to flick a switch and solve that overnight.

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 2:01pm

skipper_G wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, from the rate the race thread on this forum it had an average rating of 7.2 and 77% voted it 7 or above.

Was it a predictable winner? Yes.
Was it a terrible race? Absolutely not.

They are two different things, F1 needs to be more competitive undoubtedly. It's not healthy that 70% of the entrants can't compete for wins. But it's impossible to flick a switch and solve that overnight.

Agree it can’t be fixed overnight and my worry is that it will never be.
To boring to safe no action the sport I love and have watched for 30 years is dieing.

seamusk84 · 21-07-2019 2:01pm

I’ve been watching F1 since 1997.

Since then the sport has always been described as “In trouble”. Clarkson is a moaning clown and always has been.

We have just had 2 great races and the sport is moving in the right direction re 2021. Yeah it will take time but for the most part we have an exciting grid currently (exception the Mercs)

The only major issue for the sport I see is F1 is not on free to air TV anymore. That is something that needs to be addressed.

pjohnson · 21-07-2019 2:11pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Agree it can’t be fixed overnight and my worry is that it will never be.
To boring to safe no action the sport I love and have watched for 30 years is dieing.

What the feck is too safe?

Infoanon · 21-07-2019 2:12pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Was it a predictable winner? Yes.
Was it a terrible race? Absolutely not.

Perhaps if the television coverage had been better and the intense midfield battle had been shown the rating would have been higher.
Showing the crowds and not the racing And ignoring all but the front runners has been an issue in F1 for decades and easily fixable...alas. ..

tipp_tipp_tipp · 21-07-2019 2:15pm

seamusk84 wrote: »

I’ve been watching F1 since 1997.

Since then the sport has always been described as “In trouble”. Clarkson is a moaning clown and always has been.

We have just had 2 great races and the sport is moving in the right direction re 2021. Yeah it will take time but for the most part we have an exciting grid currently (exception the Mercs)

The only major issue for the sport I see is F1 is not on free to air TV anymore. That is something that needs to be addressed.

Was about to post something similar. These Mercedes dominated seasons have been a lot better than the early 2000s when Ferrari were dominating. Those were bad times with very little action on track. I think those years were very damaging for the sport, and I feel it's been trying to justify it's existence ever since. Funny I see something similar going on in Gaelic Football at the moment. They've had a 2-3 dull seasons, and now the sport is 'dying', 'in trouble', etc. There's always a big overreaction to a poor game, similar to a poor race in F1. There is plenty for F1 to improve on, but to say it's dying I think is an over reaction.

What worries me though, is I've never seen the performance levels throughout the field as static as they are now. The start of every year feels like groundhog day, with Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull out in front, then a big gap to the rest. It's very concerning that a decently funded team such as a Renault has been completely incapable of closing the gap in the last couple of years. In fact regarding Renault, I have never really understood why they are in F1 and how it fits into their brand.

Inviere · 21-07-2019 2:23pm

skipper_G wrote: »

But to say he raised great points is just false.

He made some good points I thought, particularly how interest levels have dropped off sharply (this is congruent with the catastrophic drop in viewing figures over the last x number of years), how the tracks are just not fit for racing, how the design of the cars actively prohibits close racing/following. Ok, granted, he might not have put forward solutions to these problems, but again I think it's nice to see some high profile criticism of the things we all whinge about, it gives them some validity to know these things aren't confined to discussion forums and reddit threads.

TCP/IP · 21-07-2019 6:15pm

pjohnson wrote: »

What the feck is too safe?

To safe is these massive run off areas and now damage to the cars for making a mistake that’s what is to safe. If a driver goes wide and makes a mistake it should take a massive toll on the car and the drivers race. How could you not agree.

the_pen_turner · 21-07-2019 6:31pm

the problem is that the cars are too reliable and working to far inside their design limits. we want them on the edge of grip and downforce. as a result the drivers are not pushed as much as they should , they should be on the limit most of the time . look at the results of the races. most cars finish and very few breakdown.
they do need to be more robust so ou can get your elbows out for a bit of wheel to wheel racing
we need tracks that allow close racing with twisty bits to give overtaking locations and fast areas that alow the speed but then need to break hard to make the next corner. we need places for the last ofthe late breakers to try a late lunge on the breaks to make a pass

flazio · 21-07-2019 6:48pm

You say that but then in the same breath you are holding up Austria as one of the best races this year. Guess how many cars finished that race? All 20.

Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

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