New bus lanes set to greatly reduce journey times by 50%

magicbastarder

More details and some outline maps here: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridor-project/ (added by moderator)

Up to 1,300 houses affected by National Transport Authority’s 230km of new lanes

More than 1,000 homes in Dublin will lose gardens and parking places under plans by the National Transport Authority to create 16 high-speed bus routes in the city.

Under the changes, to be announced today by the authority, 230km of expanded bus lanes and 200km of cycle lanes are to be constructed within a decade.

However, the authority warns that because there is “so little unused space” along some roads, that “it will often not be possible to accommodate the bus lanes and cycle lanes in the width available”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/homes-to-lose-gardens-and-parking-under-dublin-bus-project-1.3527128

amcalester

Is the parking that these houses are losing private or on street parking?

filbert the fox

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/homes-to-lose-gardens-and-parking-under-dublin-bus-project-1.3527128

Something wrong here - Clongriffin to City Centre has a bus lane along its entire journey

magicbastarder

if they're losing gardens, i expect some of those would have private driveways. the route i'd know best would be the ballymun-phibsboro route; i assume houses on mobhi road and prospect road would be affected (assuming that's the expected route). mobhi road would have houses with gardens and public driveways.

plus, if that *is* the intention, those people on mobhi road will be livid. they live beside na fianna and have probably been fighting the metro tunnel depot plans, so this has come hot on the heels of that.

magicbastarder

filbert the fox wrote: »

Something wrong here - Clongriffin to City Centre has a bus lane along its entire journey

i guess that won't be one of the routes affected by CPOs so.

TallGlass

filbert the fox wrote: »

Something wrong here - Clongriffin to City Centre has a bus lane along its entire journey

Might be cycling infra- would be my assumption, or changes to the junctions, there is plenty of stopping and starting along the Malahide road.

devnull

Good of the press to focus on the positive aspects of BC improving public transport.

pclive

Good news for bus passengers and cyclists.

magicbastarder

devnull wrote: »

Good of the press to focus on the positive aspects of BC improving public transport.

actually, i'd considered whether or not this was the article i should post about it. but since this is the aspect that would make most noise and be talked about most anyway, i decided not to beat around the bush. happy for you to pick a less negative thread title!

EdgeCase

I'd say this could get pretty expensive and likely unachievable very quickly.

Metro and partially underground trams might be more logical

n!ghtmancometh

Won't happen. They couldn't lob off a few gardens to get rid of the Merrion Gates FFS. 10 years too? that's 2 governments. Depressingly laughable and more of the same.

Nice of them to eliminate Clondalkin's link with the city centre too. Sure why would we want to go there? Everyone works in Drimnagh these days.

Isambard

Presumably they'll be compensated and might be able to manage without a car with a decent bus service. Not a pleasant prospect for anyone affecter though

BeerNut

I'm on the Kimmage route. So I get:

• No more front lawn to mow
• Cycle infrastructure from my front gate
• €€€

I'm in!

The decision to close the northern stretch of Lower Kimmage Road to private traffic is a brave one. I'd love to see it happen but can't see it somehow.

Colonel Claptrap

I haven't looked at the meat of this yet, but I welcome the idea of CPO for bus corridors.

Far too much NIMBYism in this country. Hopefully this sets a precedent and normalises CPO in the city.

No doubt we will hear the usual suspects screeching in protest.

pclive

[QUOTE=n!ghtmancometh;Nice of them to eliminate Clondalkin's link with the city centre too. Sure why would we want to go there? Everyone works in Drimnagh these days.[/QUOTE]

Clondalkin meets the tallaght QBC in Drimnagh and continues to the city centre

magicbastarder

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Far too much NIMBYism in this country.

i think you'll find with this that it will be a literal case of NIMFYism.

LeinsterDub

magicbastarder wrote: »

if they're losing gardens, i expect some of those would have private driveways. the route i'd know best would be the ballymun-phibsboro route; i assume houses on mobhi road and prospect road would be affected (assuming that's the expected route). mobhi road would have houses with gardens and public driveways.

plus, if that *is* the intention, those people on mobhi road will be livid. they live beside na fianna and have probably been fighting the metro tunnel depot plans, so this has come hot on the heels of that.

The poor souls , 2 high frequency PT options on their doorsteps. How will they ever cope with the related increase in property values. :rolleyes:

Hurrache

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

No doubt we will hear the usual suspects screeching in protest.

You're already assuming that any objections is NIMBYism for the sake of it and are just people wailing about changes.

I certainly don't want to see more concrete and tarmac laid down in the city for traffic, the purpose of which is to make it easier for those living outside of the city to get into the city, to the detriment of those already living and established there.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

2 high frequency PT options on their doorsteps.

And that literally may be a valid problem for them, remove the green space, put in a bus lane in what was their front garden.

magicbastarder

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The poor souls , 2 high frequency PT options on their doorsteps. How will they ever cope with the related increase in property values. :rolleyes:

you don't expect them to welcome it though? the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few can sometimes legitimately piss off the few.
these people are being told that there may literally be a bus lane where their gardens currently are.
'may' is probably crucial here - the plan seems vague on whether houses with gardens will now be opening their front door onto a public footpath, or onto shortened gardens.

property prices increase when you live near PT, sure - but that's usually measured within a few hundred metres, not a few metres.

LeinsterDub

magicbastarder wrote: »

you don't expect them to welcome it though? the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few can sometimes legitimately piss off the few.
these people are being told that there may literally be a bus lane where their gardens currently are.
'may' is probably crucial here - the plan seems vague on whether houses with gardens will now be opening their front door onto a public footpath, or onto shortened gardens.

property prices increase when you live near PT, sure - but that's usually measured within a few hundred metres, not a few metres.

To me these are like the shop keepers during LCC , "It's a Joke Joe" , "Mess every where Joe", "Can't move outside me shop Joe" .

You don't hear "Thousands of customs passing me door everyday now Joe" , "Get into work in 10 minutes Joe" .

Do I expect them to be over joyed ? I wouldn't be over joyed . A Metro past my door and a high quality bus route? I'd kill someone to have that even it it meant losing some of my garden.
Few if any house will be opening their door on to a public footpath.

magicbastarder

some more detail here:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387/Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.pdf

Elmer Blooker

magicbastarder wrote: »

some more detail here:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387/Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.pdf

I see Swords to the city centre is included in the project. This most likely means the Metro is yet again "put on hold".
Interesting that a billion was made available to "upgrade" the M50 and get more cars on the road and there's never enough for the Metro.
I'll be long underground before Dublin ever sees an underground!

Hurrache

Rent a gob on all things Dooblin is on Pat Kenny talking about it now, no prizes for guessing his approach.

monkeybutter

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see Swords to the city centre is included in the project. This most likely means the Metro is yet again "put on hold".
Interesting that a billion was made available to "upgrade" the M50 and get more cars on the road and there's never enough for the Metro.
I'll be long underground before Dublin ever sees an underground!

We don't need an underground system, the bus is already the solution. Kick the car out of the city center cycle and buses all the way. Traffic is the problem

LeinsterDub

monkeybutter wrote: »

We don't need an underground system, the bus is already the solution. Kick the car out of the city center cycle and buses all the way. Traffic is the problem

We most definitely need an underground.

LeinsterDub

Hurrache wrote: »

Rent a gob on all things Dooblin is on Pat Kenny talking about it now, no prizes for guessing his approach.

Him: We need something different !
Pat: What thing
Him : Something.

seamus

This does seem very much like a case of throwing everything out there to see what sticks. For example, the proposal in Terenure is that only busses, taxis and bikes will be allowed go through it inbound. Sorely needed, but they've been talking about it for 15 years.

Likewise there's a proposal that Rathmines would become bus-only outbound, diverting all outbound traffic through Ranelagh.

These are the kinds of things that typically have car park owners wailing and claiming it'll kill business.

Chances are most of these plans will get half-implemented, making stuff marginally better but leaving bad pinch points because politicians are afraid to tell vested interests that private cars must be the lowest in the pecking order.

Colonel Claptrap

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see Swords to the city centre is included in the project. This most likely means the Metro is yet again "put on hold".
Interesting that a billion was made available to "upgrade" the M50 and get more cars on the road and there's never enough for the Metro.
I'll be long underground before Dublin ever sees an underground!

Swords is massive. Not every home is next to the metro stop. That's where busses come in.

monument

The NTA seem to be going against their own, city and national policy in indicating it will be giving priority to buses over the safety of cycling.

There’s signs of overreach, for example: In the context of Luas to Finglas and Metro to Ballymun, the two bus routes should not go ahead — it might be an indication of how bus mad the NTA has become suggesting Luas and Metro yet still wanting to CPO front gardens.

LeinsterDub

Jesus Christ wept. The guy they found to defend Bus Connects hates ML

budhabob

What about circular routes? to connect the various core routes, or is that the next stage?

Charles Babbage

monument wrote: »

The NTA seem to be going against their own, city and national policy in indicating it will be giving priority to buses over the safety of cycling.

Buses are for everyone, cycling for a (noisy) minority.


If they are into the CPO way of thinking, I suggest quadrupuling the line to Howth Junction would a good use of those powers.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Can see this being a major issue and an unrealistic solution

Changing roads and certain places to one way only sounds like it's going to create bottle necks in other places. (Renelagh/rathmines etc.)

Taking people's front gardens from them with all the claims coming in of having somewhere for small children to play, somewhere to park your personal car ( especially for a disabled person) (also, yes they may use the bus to the city but for other things such as going shopping, getting out of Dublin, they'll need a car)

Value of people's property dropping because of losing the garden but also now you'll have a frequent drone of engines from buses closer to your door.


One thing I'd like to see from this is proper cycle lane infrastructure and make them mandatory.

Cycling in a bus lane, holding up buses when there's a cycle lane available is not on.

Hell, if I drove my bus down a cycle lane there'd be murder over it !

RayCun

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Buses are for everyone, cycling for a (noisy) minority.

Cycling is for a noisy minority, because only a minority of people will cycle in the current conditions.

I cycle along the canal way from Portobello most days. It's a safe, well-maintained route, and a lot of people use it. If there were more options like that for commuters, there would be more people cycling.

PucaMama

What if someone in those houses affected needs their car. I.e. someone with a disability that needs an adapted car.

Macy0161

I'm sure travel times is an issue on some routes, but the NTA seem to be so focussed on big (pie in the sky?) capital projects that they're not addressing capacity issues on routes that could be fixed in a much shorter time frame. Even from the point of view of showing how it can work on routes that do have decent infrastructure to sell to areas where they might need to cpo!

seamus

PucaMama wrote: »

What if someone in those houses affected needs their car. I.e. someone with a disability that needs an adapted car.

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion that anyone will lose parking spots.

Part of some front gardens will be taken and some on-street parking will be lost.

Presumably the number of houses that may be left with no off-street or on-street parking will be tiny, if any.

sharper

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm sure travel times is an issue on some routes, but the NTA seem to be so focussed on big (pie in the sky?) capital projects that they're not addressing capacity issues on routes that could be fixed in a much shorter time frame. Even from the point of view of showing how it can work on routes that do have decent infrastructure to sell to areas where they might need to cpo!

This isn't an either/or thing. The Dublin Bus fleet is also being increased and new drivers hired.

There's no point adding busses if they're all stuck in traffic though.

RayCun

seamus wrote: »

Presumably the number of houses that may be left with no off-street or on-street parking will be tiny, if any.

and what if someone living there needs a van for work?

and what if someone needs a car to drive to a job that isn't in the city?

and what if they need a car to drop their kids to school before driving into town?

and what if they don't like buses and want to drive instead?

if you really need or want a car, and the house you live in isn't going to have space for a car, then you move to a house that is going to have space for a car, further away from major public transport arteries

If we decide that every place that people can live has to have room to park a car, we have to devote massive amounts of space to parking, at the expense of housing, transport, workplaces, parks...

StreetLight

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm sure travel times is an issue on some routes, but the NTA seem to be so focussed on big (pie in the sky?) capital projects that they're not addressing capacity issues on routes that could be fixed in a much shorter time frame. Even from the point of view of showing how it can work on routes that do have decent infrastructure to sell to areas where they might need to cpo!

You can throw as many buses as you like onto a route, but if there's no bus priority, they'll just end up stuck in traffic.

If the priority is sorted out, then that means buses can complete their journey quickly and thus get more trips done in the same amount of time, which adds to capacity.

seamus

RayCun wrote: »

if you really need or want a car, and the house you live in isn't going to have space for a car, then you move to a house that is going to have space for a car, further away from major public transport arteries

Oh I agree completely.

But in terms of CPOing land to build bus corridors, parking facilities are a pretty big loss for someone who already has them.

Chances are nobody will be left without, but the CPO maybe should include the option for the NTA to purchase the entire property and not just the front garden; if the householder doesn't want to go without.

Then they can modify the front garden and transfer the property to the local authority.

Dyr

Looks like all the new radial routes are avoiding the actual city centre, presumably to ensure the smooth running of the cross city luas trophy project. There's a how-are-ye for public transport policy, banning buses from the city centre.

Absolutely nothing about enforcement or resolving RTPI issues either.

Loads of big plans to expand services without actually resolving fundamental issues those services currently have. It's the public sector way.

If they're CPOing gardens then the promise to replace trees and public/pedestrian space won't be worth a tinkers curse either. You'll be looking at footpaths the size of medieval alleys like college green.

Pelvis

How is this at all feasible? Are they going to seize people's property?

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

Looks like all the new radial routes are avoiding the actual city centre, presumably to ensure the smooth running of the cross city luas trophy project. There's a how-are-ye for public transport policy, banning buses from the city centre.

Part of the upcoming change is likely to be a simplified route system running along well known corridors that you switch between rather than a mess of routes going all over the place.

magicbastarder

Pelvis wrote: »

How is this at all feasible? Are they going to seize people's property?

in short, yes.

Qrt

Pelvis wrote: »

How is this at all feasible? Are they going to seize people's property?

Compulsory Purchase Orders

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Hurrache wrote: »

Rent a gob on all things Dooblin is on Pat Kenny talking about it now, no prizes for guessing his approach.

Who is rent a gob? What is his approach?

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Buses are for everyone, cycling for a (noisy) minority.

Buses are for plebes.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

One thing I'd like to see from this is proper cycle lane infrastructure and make them mandatory.

Cycling in a bus lane, holding up buses when there's a cycle lane available is not on.

Hell, if I drove my bus down a cycle lane there'd be murder over it !

Build thousands of miles of modern, well planned, cycling infrastructure and it still won't be used if it's not well maintained. It needs to be free from obstacles, free flowing, safe, and clear of glass/debris. Also, your analogy is idiotic.

beauf

They'll probably spend a fortune on it, then screw it all up by bad road design choices. Which will completely defeat the purpose of the whole project.

Because thats what they usually do.

Sounds like a good idea in theory but can't see it working because of typical Irish NIMBYism. Look what happened less than a year ago when an idea to remove trees in Fairview to create better cycling infrastructure was put forward.
http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/15/petition-to-save-trees-in-fairview-reaches-nearly-12000-signatures/

Dyr

sharper wrote: »

Part of the upcoming change is likely to be a simplified route system running along well known corridors that you switch between rather than a mess of routes going all over the place.

We shall see, but I have a funny feeling they won't be running routes that start in smithfield and end on O'Connell Street.

Chances are whatever form the transfer system takes it will be a fecking disaster, all the disparate elements have to operate consistently as they should for that to work and Irish public transport has no track record for that

Qrt

downtheroad wrote: »

Look what happened less than a year ago when an idea to remove trees in Fairview to create better cycling infrastructure was put forward.
http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/15/petition-to-save-trees-in-fairview-reaches-nearly-12000-signatures/

1) The trees boasted significant history, they weren't just regular trees.

2) It lead to the redesign of the whole route, which has been broadly welcomed and looks like something straight from Amsterdam.