New bus lanes set to greatly reduce journey times by 50%

magicbastarder

if you ask me, the typical fuel efficiency of a car moving slowly in rush hour traffic would qualify most of them as gas guzzlers.

Hurrache

Yes, but that's not what people are talking about though when they use the term 'gas guzzler'.

Padraig Mor

Podge_irl wrote: »

they'll find it a lot easier when more people are using the quick, efficient and reliable public transport .

marno21 wrote: »

Evil conniving NTA to be called in front of Oireachtas Transport Committee to explain themselves for heinously trying to improve public transport in heavily congested city

While there may be some merit in this plan if it were to solely improve public transport, let's not forget that people will also be losing their amenities (gardens etc) to accommodate the small minority of people who choose to make their commute by bicycle instead of using public transport - and judging by this thread, many of those extolling the 'public transport' virtues of this plan will in fact not be using it.

cruizer101

sbsquarepants wrote: »

they're talking on the radio of 25k a square metre in compensation - you can run a bus lane through my kitchen for that, never mind my garden!

Thats a crazy figure, but also there is no way the same figure can be used across the board, there is big difference between losing 2 metre from a 10 metre garden, or 2m from a 5m garden meaning its no longer possible to park a car in it.

filbert the fox

Given the standard of driving and cycling around this fair city - nobody can legislate for the box huggers, mirror ignorers, daredevils and selfish behaviour bound to scupper even the best laid plans for public transport

monument

mrslancaster wrote: »

For many people who drive it has more to do with the benefits and convenience of using their own car or van rather than 50% faster bus journey times.
How do you think disabled people would benefit? Or trades people who need tools or equipment? How about the convenience of a car for a parent dropping children to different locations creche/school and then going to work across the city? Plus maybe doing grocery shopping also..sports stuff and other activities at weekends..What about helping with elderly family members, getting to hospital appointments etc

Relying on public transport is not feasible, it causes untold stress to many families.

Living within the canals in Dublin doesn't make it easier either. Not everyone can walk or cycle or use public transport. People use whatever suits their circumstances at different times of life.

Do you think disabled people and elderly people don’t use buses?

Do you really think no families use buses or bicycles?

Is there no stress involved in driving in and sitting in traffic?

Why do you think cars are going to be banned? You know there’ll still be car access everywhere, right? It will just have less priority.

the_syco wrote: »

If they want less cars in the city, they need to build big secure affordable carparks outside the M50 on these new bus routes, with a transport link that starts at said carpark which goes into the city.

Otherwise there'll just be more congestion.

Are most of the cars not coming from within the M50?

Hurrache

monument wrote: »

Are most of the cars not coming from within the M50?

Don't know about most, but there's a hell of a lot coming from outside the M50, you have Swords, Tallaght, Lucan and Blanchardstown alone outside the M50, and those are just areas within Dublin, never mind Ashbourne, Naas, Dunboyne, Ratoath, Clonee just on the periphery.

The worse of the traffic is on the arteries coming from those areas.

sbsquarepants

Geuze wrote: »

I heard that 25,000 per sqm figure this morning.

It couldn't be true?

That's (25k)(10,000) = 250 million per hectare!!!

There's only 2 possible explanations - either they've discovered oil and lots of it or it's just common or garden public service efficiency:D

Elmer Blooker

marno21 wrote: »

Evil conniving NTA to be called in front of Oireachtas Transport Committee to explain themselves for heinously trying to improve public transport in heavily congested city

We all could argue over the merits of this Dublin bus project all day and all night but seriously, could anyone see any other European city widening roads, removing trees and green spaces as a solution in the 21st century?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results - think of Clasbrassil Street, Parnell Street, North King Street, Summerhill to name a few.
Rail and not making roads wider is the solution to getting cars off the roads!

Seth Brundle

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

We all could argue over the merits of this Dublin bus project all day and all night but seriously, could anyone see any other European city widening roads, removing trees and green spaces as a solution in the 21st century?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results - think of Clasbrassil Street, Parnell Street, North King Street, Summerhill to name a few.
Rail and not making roads wider is the solution to getting cars off the roads!

Given the availability of funds, widening the road to allow for a more efficient bus service is a solution.
Rail is not a viable solution given the lack of funding required.
For far too long have we catered for a car based culture in Dublin. It is not a sustainable method of transport but if people want to use their car they can: it will just take them a lot longer to commute (it will regardless of this plan anyhow). This plan is about making it easier for public transport users to commute.

Podge_irl

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

We all could argue over the merits of this Dublin bus project all day and all night but seriously, could anyone see any other European city widening roads, removing trees and green spaces as a solution in the 21st century?

I know of very few other European cities with houses with front gardens so close to the city centre on main arterial routes.

Buses carry the vast majority of commuters. Even in London with the tube network buses are still the mainstay of public transport. They need to work efficiently so at certain sections the options are either road widening or banning cars completely.

magicbastarder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Geuze wrote: »

I heard that 25,000 per sqm figure this morning.

It couldn't be true?

That's (25k)(10,000) = 250 million per hectare!!!

There's only 2 possible explanations - either they've discovered oil and lots of it or it's just common or garden public service efficiency:D

I guess it's €25 per square metre - which is 250k per hectare. Roughly 10 times the rate as for agricultural land.

Macy0161

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

We need to go underground, even if it costs much more. This plan just isn't a runner, I don't think. If they go ahead with this IMO they need to just boot private traffic off those roads and not widen them.

Edit: And keep the taxis out of these new bus lanes too.

Perhaps that's the alternative plan. Create a load of fuss over gardens and trees, then present the alternative of existing roadways purely for buses and cyclists and local access.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

All this talk of gas guzzlers, there's relatively few in Dublin, or Ireland, since the changes in motor tax a few years ago. It's a fallacy to suggest all big cars are ' gas guzzlers'.

They might not be "gas guzzlers", but the physical size of cars must have increased significantly over the years? In terms of road space, that has an impact.

LuckyLloyd

bk wrote: »

Let me take a step back here for a moment, a lot of people here seem to think this will effect them when it won't effect most people, at least not directly (they might benefit indirectly from quicker bus journeys).

This will only directly effect 1,300 homes out of 450,000 or so homes in Dublin!

Of those 1,300 or so, not all will lose their parking, most will likely just lose a few feet of garden, but still have space for a garden/parking. For the minority of these who do lose their parking, then the NTA say they will supply alternative parking close by.

So again, this won't effect most people and who it does effect, they will still be able to keep their car.

If you wondering if your home will be one of those 1,300 or so, it should be easy enough to tell. Look out your front window, are their lots of buses speeding by your window every two or three minutes, then you might be effected. Everyone else off side streets and estates can relax.

I can't speak for all 16 corridors. But for the ones I know personally, the vast majority of homes along these roads are mostly rented accommodation to students or young people. Very few if any families live in them. That is because they already face out onto very busy roads. This change won't be a major deal for them.

And 1300 homes are being affected to transform Dublin's bus system and make commuting to and from the city centre far more efficient and accessible than ever before. It's an excellent deal.

wakka12

Is there a map of the roads which are planned to be widened?

listermint

Pushing more folks into safe cycling options at the same time, Massive implications for health services in the country.

Healthier lifestyles forced through commuting changes.

Macy0161

Hurrache wrote: »

Don't know about most, but there's a hell of a lot coming from outside the M50, you have Swords, Tallaght, Lucan and Blanchardstown alone outside the M50, and those are just areas within Dublin, never mind Ashbourne, Naas, Dunboyne, Ratoath, Clonee just on the periphery.

The worse of the traffic is on the arteries coming from those areas.

Most are short journeys. But I believe there's massive potential for park and rides, but it doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Take the N11 - people all ready want to park and ride, with villages off the N/M11 having to have parking restrictions to minimise it, a full park and ride in greystones etc. There isn't the option to park, and even if there was current (bus) services are at capacity anyway.

schemingbohemia

Macy0161 wrote: »

Most are short journeys. But I believe there's massive potential for park and rides, but it doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Take the N11 - people all ready want to park and ride, with villages off the N/M11 having to have parking restrictions to minimise it, a full park and ride in greystones etc. There isn't the option to park, and even if there was current (bus) services are at capacity anyway.

Park and Ride is planned, mostly adjacent to Rail but there's a whole section in the NTA's GDA Strategy on it.


https://www.nationaltransport.ie/planning-policy/greater-dublin-areatransport-strategy-2016-2035/

Can't seem to post the map that's included in it.

howiya

Macy0161 wrote: »

Most are short journeys. But I believe there's massive potential for park and rides, but it doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Take the N11 - people all ready want to park and ride, with villages off the N/M11 having to have parking restrictions to minimise it, a full park and ride in greystones etc. There isn't the option to park, and even if there was current (bus) services are at capacity anyway.

Speaking of capacity, I heard on the radio yesterday that public transport is already operating at full capacity and wouldn't be able to cope if everyone ditched their car in the morning. Is this true?

I commute off peak and there is plenty of capacity on my way to work and absolutely none (no services) on my way home.

sharper

howiya wrote: »

Speaking of capacity, I heard on the radio yesterday that public transport is already operating at full capacity and wouldn't be able to cope if everyone ditched their car in the morning. Is this true?.

At peak times right now people are watching full busses go past them. That's with drivers often allowing a dangerous numbe of people to squeeze in and stand.

The bus fleet is expanding and the biggest bump will be in October when Go Ahead start operating.

Adding extra busses won't help if they're all stuck in the same choke points, hence a need for measures like this. A lot of people are talking about current usage without thinking both about natural expansion and what usage would look like if the service was improved to the point where it was attractive to existing car owners.

howiya

sharper wrote: »

At peak times right now people are watching full busses go past them. That's with drivers often allowing a dangerous numbe of people to squeeze in and stand.

The bus fleet is expanding and the biggest bump will be in October when Go Ahead start operating.

Adding extra busses won't help if they're all stuck in the same choke points, hence a need for measures like this. A lot of people are talking about current usage without thinking both about natural expansion and what usage would look like if the service was improved to the point where it was attractive to existing car owners.

You say adding extra buses won't help without these measures but we're adding extra buses anyway? How soon will these measures be in place?

monument

Bambi wrote: »

Lads, do yis realize how unhinged the brave new world style raving makes yiz sound? It comes across a bit like a hornby railway club populated by members the Warzaw county council circa 1955.

Quite, quite mad.

You can made the same point without calling unhinged / mad or otherwise referring to mental health — thanks!

— moderator

sharper

howiya wrote: »

You say adding extra buses won't help without these measures but we're adding extra buses anyway? How soon will these measures be in place?

Adding extra busses produces diminishing returns. You add busses now to improve things and also plan the infrastructure you need so you can get the most out of what's being spent on busses (and drivers) and so you can keep adding them into the future.

If the plan was only to add new busses then it wouldn't help, the plan is to do both because they complement each other.

I think 2027 is the date for all the busconnects measures to be completed by.

Macy0161

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Park and Ride is planned, mostly adjacent to Rail but there's a whole section in the NTA's GDA Strategy on it.


https://www.nationaltransport.ie/planning-policy/greater-dublin-areatransport-strategy-2016-2035/

Can't seem to post the map that's included in it.

I was more focused on bus, as I believe that's where there is a real, and potentially short term, opportunities. The document is very much focused on rail regarding park and rides, only saying "Assess and determine the potential for bus-based park and ride, in particular, close to high quality road corridors leading from Hinterland towns".

I'm going to use the N/M11 again - imo the potential is already there, but there's no spare capacity and no specific parking. I know people who drive who could walk to the bus, but the capacity issues put them off. It would appear to me that the NTA only see buses as a solution in the city...

All the luas park and rides are designated for Luas passengers only too, so if you wanted to use them to park and cycle, that'd be a clamping release fee!

daheff

I was amazed at this plan.

While its ambitious, its never going to happen entirely.

What will happen though, is that people will dig their heels in (especially those who might lose a driveway) and come together to challenge the CPO. IF the CPO goes ahead, the 1bn cost will likely end up nearer 3bn and way over time(like most of these infrastructure plans). With 1300 CPOs to do, there will be a few that block the project.

Be much better to start looking at underground facilities.

I've made this point repeatedly in the past....its time we added capacity into our commuting network rather that just repurpose what we have. In the long term cost wise it will be money better spent.


Everybody was delighted with the tram network when it was first opened...everybody was asking why we didnt do that sooner. Well same thing with an underground. Lets stop talking about it and go for it.

Podge_irl

daheff wrote: »

Everybody was delighted with the tram network when it was first opened...everybody was asking why we didnt do that sooner. Well same thing with an underground. Lets stop talking about it and go for it.

They are...

Buses are going to remain vitally important, just as they are in London. 16 core routes on Bus Connects is still going to be cheaper than one underground line. This is absolutely needed, whether underground lines go ahead or not.

sharper

daheff wrote: »

Be much better to start looking at underground facilities.

You still have to do your construction somewhere and people will still oppose it, see the metro underground for example.

Elmer Blooker

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Given the availability of funds, widening the road to allow for a more efficient bus service is a solution.
Rail is not a viable solution given the lack of funding required.
For far too long have we catered for a car based culture in Dublin. It is not a sustainable method of transport but if people want to use their car they can: it will just take them a lot longer to commute (it will regardless of this plan anyhow). This plan is about making it easier for public transport users to commute.

The M50 "upgrade" around €1 billion, the Port Tunnel about the same, the cost of this project which is the widen roads which means more space for BOTH buses and cars, €2 billion.
There's never any lack of funds for spending on roads is there?
With the exception of the LUAS which of course is a tram, there hasn't been a single centimeter of rail constructed since the foundation of this state.

I know of very few other European cities with houses with front gardens so close to the city centre on main arterial routes.

I can't think of any houses with front gardens within the North and South Circular Roads? I can't see this plan easing congestion, it will just move bottlenecks elsewhere.

monument

Padraig Mor wrote: »

While there may be some merit in this plan if it were to solely improve public transport, let's not forget that people will also be losing their amenities (gardens etc) to accommodate the small minority of people who choose to make their commute by bicycle instead of using public transport - and judging by this thread, many of those extolling the 'public transport' virtues of this plan will in fact not be using it.

There’s a lot to unpack in that.

Cycling is at 10% and growing of Dublin City commuters, and, within the city centre, counts show cycling now at 13% of all traffic (including pedestrians) and 30-35%+ in very central areas.

The trend is up and this will speed up when full cycle route are developed. Remember: there’s not yet one single continuous suburb to city centre cycle route in place.

There’s not even a continuous pained cycle lane that’s parked on — the closest to it is Rathmines where bicycle commuters outnumber car commuters crossing the canal and there’s not a single ED area from the canal out the Rathgar Road where cycling commuters don’t outnumber bus commuters.

Cycling has more commuters than Luas for a fraction of the investment made in Luas. A few €100m over decades for cycling vs something approaching €2 billion for Luas (worth it, but the point is cycling investment is even better value).

You also seem to be making the presumption that making space for cycling is a purely pro-cycling measure — it’s not, it’s as much as a pro-bus measure as it frees up space for buses.

L1011

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

With the exception of the LUAS which of course is a tram, there hasn't been a single centimeter of rail constructed since the foundation of this state.

While I understand what you mean, there have been direct curves, industrial sidings and so on built on the CIE network. There's no net new commuter lines since the Victorian era really