Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

pmy.murphy

Sh*T show in that second half, tactically inept raining ball after ball down on top of TJ. Other than him the days of kk forwards winning their own 50/50 balls are over a change needs to be made, dunno would I go as far as saying Cody has to go but something seriously has to change and he has to maybe move with the times a bit buck up his ideas turning into a bit of a dinosaur on the line. I do also think he’s getting the most out of a very limited group of players at the same time and would we be much worse off with that current group without him. As far as playing personnel is concerned a serious clear out of the decks is needed there’s enough of lads there either clinging on to their place on the panel for dear life contributing nothing and yet keep being turned to to change things time and time again and also lads simply that aren’t good enough, a bit of freshness is needed both in playing personnel and in terms of how we play

mountgomery burns

Jizique wrote: »

Calum Lyons surely

Not eligible, he's 23

sportsmaddad

Hats off to WD last night, some performance and they firmly defied the "3 weeks in a row" theory with that 2nd half display. Best of luck to them in the final, they seem to be going into it in a far better place than in 2017. They won't fear either of GY or LK. And given the hype usually generated when they get on a run, I think the uniqueness of this year and lack of crowds is a plus for them.

I see lots of knives out for Cody straightaway. What a difference 2 weeks make! After the GY win all the talk was about the progress of the younger contingent and of course the indomitable spirit. Sure, the plaudits weren't exactly in fulsome praise of the tactical performance. But I think most commentators agreed that management got it right on the night and made the right substations at the right time.

Roll on 2 weeks and a 3 point defeat to what is undoubtedly a team at the absolute top of its game. OK, too many deliveries from KK defence allowed WD backs to put on one of the best displays of high catching I've seen in years. But for the goal that kick started WD's 2nd half there were 5 KK defenders surrounding Bennett. Loads of the following scores in that game changing quarter came from just running at, taking on and beating KK backs. I don't think you can lay it all the door of management or poor tactics.

I don't think a knee jerk reaction on the basis of what is simply 1 defeat out of 3 cracking championship games in the most bizarre season in decades is what this KK team, with so many young bright prospects, needs right now.

pmy.murphy

sportsmaddad wrote: »

Hats off to WD last night, some performance and they firmly defied the "3 weeks in a row" theory with that 2nd half display. Best of luck to them in the final, they seem to be going into it in a far better place than in 2017. They won't fear either of GY or LK. And given the hype usually generated when they get on a run, I think the uniqueness of this year and lack of crowds is a plus for them.

I see lots of knives out for Cody straightaway. What a difference 2 weeks make! After the GY win all the talk was about the progress of the younger contingent and of course the indomitable spirit. Sure, the plaudits weren't exactly in fulsome praise of the tactical performance. But I think most commentators agreed that management got it right on the night and made the right substations at the right time.

Roll on 2 weeks and a 3 point defeat to what is undoubtedly a team at the absolute top of its game. OK, too many deliveries from KK defence allowed WD backs to put on one of the best displays of high catching I've seen in years. But for the goal that kick started WD's 2nd half there were 5 KK defenders surrounding Bennett. Loads of the following scores in that game changing quarter came from just running at, taking on and beating KK backs. I don't think you can lay it all the door of management or poor tactics.

I don't think a knee jerk reaction on the basis of what is simply 1 defeat out of 3 cracking championship games in the most bizarre season in decades is what this KK team, with so many young bright prospects, needs right now.

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it? Who there is ready to step into the shoes of a TJ or Richie Hogan when they are gone or is even on that level of raw ability? That level of talent is not there. Some of these bright young prospects are very limited in terms of hurling ability from what I can see for example even that first goal we scored last night keoghan nearly messed it up with his pure awkwardness when the natural instinct in that position should be just to pull on the ball and it’s in the net

babyjesus14

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it? Who there is ready to step into the shoes of a TJ or Richie Hogan when they are gone or is even on that level of raw ability? That level of talent is not there. Some of these bright young prospects are very limited in terms of hurling ability from what I can see for example even that first goal we scored last night keoghan nearly messed it up with his pure awkwardness when the natural instinct in that position should be just to pull on the ball and it’s in the net

I think i have heard it all now! A guy is being criticised for not finishing a goal stylishly enough. You couldn't make it up!

hurleyrebel

hurleyrebel wrote: »

What's the overall swell of opinion about whether Cody should stay or go? 50-50 or thereabouts?

For the first time I'm leaning towards he should go.

farmerval

In last years semi final and final and again yesterday, Kilkenny's style and crowding the half back line and huge intensity upset their opponents and got KK off to a flyer, however in each game once the opposition settled and began to find ways around what Kilkenny were doing KK had no real answer, no way of reacting to changing circumstance.
Nearly all teams forwards play better when their opponents are chasing the game, leaving more space but KK don't. It's like the savage work rate mantra is so overbearing that playing the game in front of them is less important. By comparison, Limericks two corner forwards chased deep several times in the Munster final, they dispossessed opponents out around the midfield, but still got forward to score and perform their number 1 function.

In last years All Ireland John Donnelly could have been man of the match. He was outstanding, but with ten minutes to go he was still foraging back in his half back line. Are Kilkenny currently getting the balance right between workhorses and hurlers?

Be worth while if someone could count how many scores TJ had a hand in yesterday. His ability having won possession to find someone in space is unrivalled, he really is the best hurler currently in the game.

JJs Left Hand

Shane McGrath did a brief summary on his performance

https://twitter.com/Shaneytweet/status/1332814311652286466?s=19

kilkennyboy

Donnelly should be nominated as well and Delaney. Probably only tj to get one

sportsmaddad

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it?

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

babyjesus14

sportsmaddad wrote: »

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

You can add James Bergin, Darren Mullen, David Blanchfield and Niall Brassil. Further down the age grades you have the likes of Cian Kenny, Ciaran Brennan and Liam Moore all probably two or three years away from being contenders yet. Whether these are good enough to backbone us to an All Ireland nobody knows but the talent is there how deep it is we won't know until we go to the bottom of the well. Who would have predicted Waterford would be in an All Ireland final three months ago? Not many, myself included.

sportsmaddad

Another cracker of a game here GY vs LK. There's no doubt whoever emerges as AI Champions will have well and truly earned it.

pmy.murphy

sportsmaddad wrote: »

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

Don’t think Martin keoghan is talented enough to be a top inter county forward. Works very hard but think he’s limited hurling wise. Donnelly and Mullen have it all, if only Donnelly had a bit more speed he could be unstoppable. Beyond them is there really much else no one around that age group exactly shooting the lights out at club level anyway outside of the Shamrocks lads even Ciaran Brennan for all the big reputation he has underage anyway hasn’t exactly stood out anytime I’ve seen him playing for the Bridge. What about the county minor team likes of Drennan, Clifford could these lads be talented enough step up in a few years. Cian Kenny of the Village I thought was very impressive this year in the club championship though could be one to watch.

The lack of development of lads on decent minor teams aged 18-21 in kk over the last number of years is a worrying trend and why is it happening. Their getting to u21/u20 level and haven’t kicked on like others in other counties. Other than one final appearance in 2017 we haven’t been remotely competitive at that grade in the last decade well since 2012 anyway

jonniegoogle

Long time follower, first time poster.

Loads of thoughts running through my head after the weekend.
One minute I'm thinking Cody must go. The lack of any kind of plan B at various points over the last couple of years has been mind boggling to say the least. The game has changed hugely over the last 5/6 years, moving towards a more possession orientated game to work around teams that play sweeper systems or literally just pack their defences. We were probably the instigators of the packed defence back in 2006 with the gameplan to stop Cork's running game. Every team in the country now has half forwards working back creating overloads while creating space for full forward lines, giving half backs the problem whether to hold position or follow.
Teams are now working the ball through the lines more and more and while this requires a great deal of coaching, it's the way the modern game is. Play it short until you can pick someone out in the scoring zone. In KK there is very little encouragement for this type of game. We've all been at games where the shouts from the bank "Drive the f..king thing long" can be heard after a short pass goes wrong. Then when it's hit long to opposition no. 6, the shout is "why didn'nt he give it to so and so".
Main problem I see in KK is not enough coaching in use of the ball. It can be improved on with coaching. It doesn't look like Cody gives any thought to this kind of game. More worryingly, because he reportedly puts underage management teams in place, they follow suit with direct game.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in KK(myself included) wants to see a short game be our main style of play but a bit of both.i.e. long and short depending on whats on. For example after ht last night when half forwards being overran was the perfect time to go short with puck outs and work it up to a position to hit the full forward line who were starved of ball for most of match.Absolute madness from Murphy to be hitting ball after ball on top of Wally and nothing come of them. I was encouraged after the Galway match with the short POs but it all went out the window last night.

Another side of me is debating if we got rid of Cody, would we have won anymore or be any better off? I honestly don't know.

2 quick questions

1. TJ or Henry?
TJ in my book. Henry did it with unbelievable hurlers surrounding him. TJ is doing it in a far inferior team week in week out. Most of the performances he has given in the KK jersey have been exceptional. Best I have seen bar none.

2. Just how good did Waterford have to hurl to beat KK last night?
Unbelievable team performance from them last night and don't forget they had 9 wides in 1st half.

Thoughts?

Swamp_Cat

Takeyourpoints wrote: »

Having watched the game again today, I think it's time Cody moved on. I didn't think I'd ever say that, but some of the hurling is archaic.

TJ is the best hurler I've ever seen, but in the second half, ball after ball was pucked down on him, where Jack Fagan had dropped back and won a few balls in a row. It comes back to the question of whether Kilkenny can think on their feet. Is hitting TJ the only option for Eoin Murphy?

I'm also struggling to think of Prunty getting the ball into his hand in the game. It's normally the sign of great defending that you've kept a man to a only a few points without even touching the ball, but I'm wondering if we got enough ball in at all. Two goals in the first half came from balls in on top of Richie and then we just seemed to stop hitting them in. I don't remember Ian Kenny touching a ball either on Billy Ryan. Why didn't we get ball into this dangerous full forward line.

When Colin fennelly came on, did we expect him to do anything without the ball. One long ball came in and himself or Brassil could have had a goal out of it, but again, we just seemed to hit it on TJ again.

Cody, Ryan, Hogan, Fennelly, these lads want the ball in front of them. Tactically we are miles behind other teams. It comes back to what people are saying on here, Kilkenny play 50/50 balls into the forwards, while Limerick, Waterford, Galway are playing 80/20 balls.

Cody is a firm believer in "win your own ball", but are those days gone? We don't have DJ, Henry, Eddie Brennan who can win their own ball anymore, and the style of play just needs to be redeveloped.

Best of luck to Waterford in the final, they're playing with a style that we, as onlookers, can only admire and respect.

Eoin Cody seems amazing at winning his own ball especially considering most are 50/50 @ best & his age + IC Championship experience. He's not 6'6" but has impressed when average ball came his way. JD can win plenty of high ball, but hopefully that's not our future. Balyhale has a nice mix of styles. I think we actually have some players who would be quite good at the short game if encouraged and coached properly. Yesterday's selection, substitutions, & tactics have me reconsidering some things. Just trying to wait out the intimidate reaction.

kilkennyboy

jonniegoogle wrote: »

Long time follower, first time poster.

Loads of thoughts running through my head after the weekend.
One minute I'm thinking Cody must go. The lack of any kind of plan B at various points over the last couple of years has been mind boggling to say the least. The game has changed hugely over the last 5/6 years, moving towards a more possession orientated game to work around teams that play sweeper systems or literally just pack their defences. We were probably the instigators of the packed defence back in 2006 with the gameplan to stop Cork's running game. Every team in the country now has half forwards working back creating overloads while creating space for full forward lines, giving half backs the problem whether to hold position or follow.
Teams are now working the ball through the lines more and more and while this requires a great deal of coaching, it's the way the modern game is. Play it short until you can pick someone out in the scoring zone. In KK there is very little encouragement for this type of game. We've all been at games where the shouts from the bank "Drive the f..king thing long" can be heard after a short pass goes wrong. Then when it's hit long to opposition no. 6, the shout is "why didn'nt he give it to so and so".
Main problem I see in KK is not enough coaching in use of the ball. It can be improved on with coaching. It doesn't look like Cody gives any thought to this kind of game. More worryingly, because he reportedly puts underage management teams in place, they follow suit with direct game.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in KK(myself included) wants to see a short game be our main style of play but a bit of both.i.e. long and short depending on whats on. For example after ht last night when half forwards being overran was the perfect time to go short with puck outs and work it up to a position to hit the full forward line who were starved of ball for most of match.Absolute madness from Murphy to be hitting ball after ball on top of Wally and nothing come of them. I was encouraged after the Galway match with the short POs but it all went out the window last night.

Another side of me is debating if we got rid of Cody, would we have won anymore or be any better off? I honestly don't know.

2 quick questions

1. TJ or Henry?
TJ in my book. Henry did it with unbelievable hurlers surrounding him. TJ is doing it in a far inferior team week in week out. Most of the performances he has given in the KK jersey have been exceptional. Best I have seen bar none.

2. Just how good did Waterford have to hurl to beat KK last night?
Unbelievable team performance from them last night and don't forget they had 9 wides in 1st half.

Thoughts?

Systems and plans come after you have the basic in place our decision making at times last night would leave you scratching your head .bar Browne ball to hogan for point in the first half .there was no service to full forward line.our shot selection and lack of a bit of creativity. What was so different about hogan when he came on against galway was his movement and willingness to throw the ball around i wouldn't like us to go down the road galway were on today with 4 inside their own 21 for puckouts it looked like football at times
we got cleaned out across our halfback line because we tried to catch
Everything simple rule of halfbacks you dont letball past your line break it back if you cant win it yourself.
Anyone looking last night would say run at kilkenny and it all opens up
Pace is a problem .
The leinster win papered over a few cracks .Adrian Mullen leahy Darren Mullen cian Kenny hopefully can step up and replace some of the guys
Who have served the Jersey so well.
The cody /carey combination seems to have hit the rocks .i would leave cody in place and approach Eddie brennan as a coach.
All team setups have manager/coach working together
Cahill/bevans
Kylie's/kenerick

JJs Left Hand

Brennan isn't the coach at Laois though - Corcoran is. Eddie and Henry are also smart enough to know if they want the big job you don't go in with Cody.

kilkennyboy

Well our current backroom looks light.gorta cody mcgarry not so sure if Eddie was approached with a succession plan .

robwen

The customary WhatsApp message is doing the rounds about fighting in Kilkenny dressing room after match yday

Alonzo Moseley

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Brennan isn't the coach at Laois though - Corcoran is. Eddie and Henry are also smart enough to know if they want the big job you don't go in with Cody.

100%

Manager Coach relationships in most of the successful and progressive county setups are now virtual 50:50 partnerships

That is simply never going to happen in Kilkenny while Cody is the manager

That isn't necessarily as big a criticism of Cody as it may seem
Part of it is simply to do with his great record, aura and longevity

Also, equal working partnerships need to usually start out together and rarely work when imposed.

While those who suggest Cody should be allowed to stay on are fully entitled to their view, so are those who say it's time for it to end
No one who is suggesting change is doing it solely on basis of an overaction to Kilkenny getting routed in 2nd half yesterday, most are doing so on a clear identifiable pattern over last 3-4 years.
A pattern that sometimes gets obscured by occasional heroic performances and of course the Cody trademarks of honesty, spirit and work rate.

What should not be beyond debate is a debate
No matter what the record of any person in any field, the manager/ceo/leader should never be afforded a "he has earned the right to decide when he leaves"

It is not healthy and where it has been afforded, the end result has usually been bad

Pigeon Chaser

Is anybody in the County Board brave enough to object to (or even question) Cody's ratification for 2021? I doubt it.

I fear it is up to Cody himself to call time on his tenure. He absolutely should, but I suspect he won't.

Cody has given us wonderful memories and unprecedented success and as proud kilkenny people we will forever be thankful. The man has done more for kilkenny hurling than anybody else. But it is time for him to go.

ClubFirst

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

Is anybody in the County Board brave enough to object to (or even question) Cody's ratification for 2021? I doubt it.

I fear it is up to Cody himself to call time on his tenure. He absolutely should, but I suspect he won't.

Cody has given us wonderful memories and unprecedented success and as proud kilkenny people we will forever be thankful. The man has done more for kilkenny hurling than anybody else. But it is time for him to go.

Agree totally with this post. The County Board will not ask Cody to go and it shows how much power Cody has in there. Just look at the way he controls Club Fixtures in the County. All Yes Men in there.
On another note, would Henry or Eddie even want the job at this present time ? There is not that much talent coming through..

Philip82

Not sure where the obsession with Eddie Brennan is coming from as next senior manager. He has had some success with Laois but in all honesty you cant go on that. He has done wonderful things with them and brought new enthusiasm and aggression to a county that have been out of the lime light for years. In reality he has had his hand in a lot of these young kk players already at under 21 level with little impression left on them, albeit reaching an All Ireland and beaten well. His first season saw us getting beaten by Westmeath and winning a Leinster the following year.
I have absolutely no bad words to say about the man and as a player I was a huge fan.

JJs Left Hand

I get where you're coming from but I think the point is he's shown an understanding of modern hurling. And to be fair they lost the All Ireland to this Limerick team.

Also, there's not exactly a massive queue of potential managers in Kilkenny. It's really just Eddie and Henry.

Considering hurling is our primary sport we're not exactly blessed with coaches.

The likes of Hoban and Mulrooney have been hanging around for years in the underage setup doing very little.

Our coaching officers are Briain Ryan who does a powerful amount of work but has been there for 20 plus years I'd say, PJ Ryan (don't know anything about how good he is) and Sean Kelly who is in charge of the physical development of the development squads. Richie O Neill does a bit as well and is a very good goalkeeping coach.

I was looking forward to seeing our U20 setup with Lyng and Rice involved this year.

People have mentioned the loss of Martin Fogarty but have any of you talked to him lately. He's another one who hasn't really adapted to hurling in 2020. He loves telling people Tommy Walsh never went into a gym... He's a good hurling coach but the game has moved on.

Unfortunately everyone involved in our set up from management through the county board appear to be stuck in a time warp where we were winning everything without having an extensive S&C programme, without having a massive backroom team, basically without spending a lot of money.... They showed incredible foresight to start the development squads however many years ago and we got years of success from that move and we've basically done nothing since.

I'd actually love to know how much our Glanbia sponsorship is worth in comparison to other counties as well.

Its all very static. The development of Nowlan Park and Dunmore has been good from a facilities point of view but what else is happening?

For example I'd love to see a radical overhaul of our club game to get a couple of North and South divisional teams made up of Intermediate and Junior players into the senior set up. All those underage players who once they're out of minor go back to Junior clubs and just drift off playing poor quality teams... Get them into a senior league, consistently training with better players.

Billy Ocean

robwen wrote: »

The customary WhatsApp message is doing the rounds about fighting in Kilkenny dressing room after match yday

seen it presumed it was nonsense, mentions Cody's nephew which sounds like a lie.

Unfortunately a symptom of modern society, same as the people who tried to tarnish the reputation of the secondary school in Carlow.

Fred Daly

ClubFirst wrote: »

Agree totally with this post. The County Board will not ask Cody to go and it shows how much power Cody has in there. Just look at the way he controls Club Fixtures in the County. All Yes Men in there.
On another note, would Henry or Eddie even want the job at this present time ? There is not that much talent coming through..

Its very hard to see how the man can not see the thing is not working , as regards the Co Board the chairman is to nice for the job big Ned kept the skids under lads.

kilkennyboy

Im unsure if its the end of the road or not for Brian we reclaimed Bob
After a few years i don't know if that's progress. It was a very strange year

grimbergen

Does anyone know why KK not using the dressing rooms and getting changed under the stand? Seems to be the only team doing it

davidx40

Our current county board chairman is stone useless .... Coaching and development officer Tynan don't get me started ....were in trouble there's no doubt about that .....

greenspurs

greenspurs wrote: »

They are getting fierce confident.....


"This current Kilkenny team are poor enough let’s be honest. if Waterford have any designs on winning an All Ireland then they should be beating this Kilkenny team on Saturday evening."

dastardly00 wrote: »

Who are "they"?

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Hard to imagine someone managing to quote greenspurs post and come out with something more pathetic but here we are

"THEY" were proved right.

They = Waterford supporters.
Pathetic ? A bit like us in the 2nd half ... and a lot of the knee jerkers in here.

Well done to Waterford, the 'noisy neighbours' have something to shout about.

I would like to see them win it now.