Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

babyjesus14

kksaints wrote: »

The problem with setting up a fourth club isn't with player numbers but more to do with is the people available to run the administrative side and is there space for another ground in the city. Also people have a strong loyalty to their clubs, would enough people be willing to change their loyalties to make a fourth club viable?

Agree with you on certain points. You will have strong resistance from the existing clubs who won't want to lose players. The club loyalty thing i wouldn't see as a major issue, people regularly change club allegiances when the move to a new county/town/parish. And the pitch wouldn't have to be in the city, the Villages new pitch is nowhere near their original.

kksaints

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Agree with you on certain points. You will have strong resistance from the existing clubs who won't want to lose players. The club loyalty thing i wouldn't see as a major issue, people regularly change club allegiances when the move to a new county/town/parish. And the pitch wouldn't have to be in the city, the Villages new pitch is nowhere near their original.

I don't know about the club loyalty, I think it would be a bigger issue than that particularly when there's a geographical area for each club. I know in Wexford town there's 6 clubs four football and 2 hurling but 3 of the clubs share one playing complex while the 3 other (much smaller clubs incidentally) have their own grounds so there probably precedent for clubs to share grounds for a while anyway so it wouldn't be a major issue alright.

JJs Left Hand

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Absolutely, it's a major elephant in the room that needs dealing with. What will it be like in 10 years time when this Western Development is finished? The 'boro will be fielding 5 teams in ever underage grade!

Is Margarets Fields / Western Environs all the Boro? Not really up to speed on the areas the city clubs pick from

Fred Daly

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Is Margarets Fields / Western Environs all the Boro? Not really up to speed on the areas the city clubs pick from

Would that not be village territory.

tbiggertycome

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Is Margarets Fields / Western Environs all the Boro? Not really up to speed on the areas the city clubs pick from

Margaret's Field is in the Village but a lot of that new housing would be in the Boro. The little road the runs out through Poulgour is the border.

See my map of the parishes here.
Full County Kilkenny GAA clubs
https://goo.gl/maps/Ame4jcA5jH6ojJaV6

Realt Dearg Sec

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Margaret's Field is in the Village but a lot of that new housing would be in the Boro. The little road the runs out through Poulgour is the border.

See my map of the parishes here.
Full County Kilkenny GAA clubs
https://goo.gl/maps/Ame4jcA5jH6ojJaV6

The amount of arguments that map has settled is probably beyond counting.

Realt Dearg Sec

kilkennyboy wrote: »

If they were allowed start as a adult club hurling maybe junior c or d
As a social club .like the half pace hurling over a few years you would see a migration and a juvenile club would organically appear.

This is the way to do it. I was involved ten years ago in setting up a club in an area of Dublin in amongst a few of the big clubs, and we got some pushback from some of them at the time, but without an underage section, and at the time being a very low level junior side (Junior F to be exact, now a Junior A side and would have represented Dublin in Leinster this year if not for Covid, just as an indication of how quikly things can bear fruit) we were probably less threatening. In the longer term you can expect one to develop naturally as the players age out and have families themselves etc.

The situation in KK is very different for a few reasons, since the schools are already closely aligned with the clubs, there isn't a pool of out of town arrivals to recruit at adult level from, and most importantly the parish rule means the territory is already divided up. What you'll need before anything happens is some serious political will at CB level to push it through, because the city clubs will not do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Not even sure how it could happen to be honest.

An adult team without a specific territory could work as a Junior B club or whatever, but I don't even know if that is something that would be possible under KK GAA rules. I doubt it would be without a change being made specifically for it. But in the longer term that team couldn't help develop young players without being able to recruit from across the city. What would be ideal would be a club that could recruit those currently being left behind by the existing three clubs, regardless of territory.

BloodyBill

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The amount of arguments that map has settled is probably beyond counting.

So there is a parish rule in Kilkenny City? In Limerick city there's none. Theres guys from about 5 different parishes on the Na Piarsaigh team. The two Caseys are from Meelick in Clare on the Limerick city border..Waterford no parish rule at all.
You guys are blessed if you can support 4 senior clubs in the city. Limerick with 100,000 has 2 senior clubs and 1 is bang average.

sasta le

BloodyBill wrote: »

So there is a parish rule in Kilkenny City? In Limerick city there's none. Theres guys from about 5 different parishes on the Na Piarsaigh team. The two Caseys are from Meelick in Clare on the Limerick city border..Waterford no parish rule at all.
You guys are blessed if you can support 4 senior clubs in the city. Limerick with 100,000 has 2 senior clubs and 1 is bang average.

How they playing for a Limerick City club if from Meelick Co Clare

Fred Daly

How is there houses in Newpark where famellies the Boro is there club if there is parish rule in the city, one of the present Boro senior hurlers is actually a Threecastles man he is still living at home.

Fred Daly

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Margaret's Field is in the Village but a lot of that new housing would be in the Boro. The little road the runs out through Poulgour is the border.

See my map of the parishes here.
Full County Kilkenny GAA clubs
https://goo.gl/maps/Ame4jcA5jH6ojJaV6

Dalys hill would be the Boro its amazing how much kilkenny has grown and is going to grow, would divisional teams work.

tbiggertycome

Fred Daly wrote: »

How is there houses in Newpark where famellies the Boro is there club if there is parish rule in the city, one of the present Boro senior hurlers is actually a Threecastles man he is still living at home.

Firstly there is no Parish rule in the city. Any player from any of the 4 city parishes can play for whatever club they want Buckley and Michael Fagan for the Boro, Mark Bergin for O'Loughlins either we're are still are living in the Village yet play for the Boro and OLG respectively. Luke Scanlon living in Clara and playing for the Village caused issues. Conor Doheny lives in Threecastles but has always hurled for the Boro. Tommy Walsh lives in Ballycallan but hurlers for Tullaroan, Michael Rice lived in Thomastown parish but played for Carrickshock.

The rule is whatever club you play for when you turn 13 is designated as your "home" club regardless of weather you live inside the parish or not. To change your home club requires you move to the new club and apply to the county board for a redesignation. Other that both your home club, your new club and the county board all have to agree to the move. Not so easy if they want you.

The Boro/St Canice's parish used to extend into Newpark and actually included the current OLG grounds. The parish priest in the late 50's early 60's gave up this area (wasn't very wealthy and there weren't many houses) but he kept the area west of the Castlecomer road as this had some big houses with wealthy people. Some of the people in Newpark never gave up their club loyalty although they are few and far between now.

Fred Daly

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Firstly there is no Parish rule in the city. Any player from any of the 4 city parishes can play for whatever club they want Buckley and Michael Fagan for the Boro, Mark Bergin for O'Loughlins either we're are still are living in the Village yet play for the Boro and OLG respectively. Luke Scanlon living in Clara and playing for the Village caused issues. Conor Doheny lives in Threecastles but has always hurled for the Boro. Tommy Walsh lives in Ballycallan but hurlers for Tullaroan, Michael Rice lived in Thomastown parish but played for Carrickshock.

The rule is whatever club you play for when you turn 13 is designated as your "home" club regardless of weather you live inside the parish or not. To change your home club requires you move to the new club and apply to the county board for a redesignation. Other that both your home club, your new club and the county board all have to agree to the move. Not so easy if they want you.

The Boro/St Canice's parish used to extend into Newpark and actually included the current OLG grounds. The parish priest in the late 50's early 60's gave up this area (wasn't very wealthy and there weren't many houses) but he kept the area west of the Castlecomer road as this had some big houses with wealthy people. Some of the people in Newpark never gave up their club loyalty although they are few and far between now.

Thats why houses like Graces Marnells etc stayed with the Boro, i am not getting at the likes of C Doheny and the Boro it took a lot of work for them to get where the are at it now.

BloodyBill

sasta le wrote: »

How they playing for a Limerick City club if from Meelick Co Clare

Its just not really policed on the border. Traditionally before Na Piarsaigh was set up alot of kids on the North side of Limerick city and definitely in the Coonagh area which is where Kevin Downes and the Dempsey brothers are from used to hurl with Meelick as they are in Meelick parish. Meelick are junior A now.. If Cratloe was where Meelick parish is all these guys would probably play with Clare..its one of those anolomies. No one ever pushes it because its not worth the hassle it could cause. The big problem in Limerick City is that the inner city Clubs that were strong like Claughaun, Old Christians ect won't all amalgamate and make a decent senior club. Like Gearoid Hegarty will never play premier intermediate never mind Senior with St Pats. These are old inner city areas with older demographic populations and big junior soccer clubs
Is there a few junior clubs in Kilkenny City like that.

Noddy33

KK36 wrote: »

Don't know what he does now to be honest. I saw him tutoring on a course years ago.

Previously use to work as a GAA coaching officer for Laois GAA and by all accounts was very well regarded. Be an excellent appointment to KK GAA structures and be a huge improvement on what is already there currently

babyjesus14

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Margaret's Field is in the Village but a lot of that new housing would be in the Boro. The little road the runs out through Poulgour is the border.

See my map of the parishes here.
Full County Kilkenny GAA clubs
https://goo.gl/maps/Ame4jcA5jH6ojJaV6

Indeed and if you travel about a mile out that road south of the city there use to be a hurling club called St Finbarrs (the 'barrs) back in the 40's and the 50's. They disbanded around the end of the '50's and amalgamated with the Village. So i am thinking of resurrecting the the 'barrs with the Western Development as our catchment area, who's with me? I know you won't be being a 'boro man as it will be the 'boro's toes we will be stepping on the most!:D

kksaints

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Indeed and if you travel about a mile out that road south of the city there use to be a hurling club called St Finbarrs (the 'barrs) back in the 40's and the 50's. They disbanded around the end of the '50's and amalgamated with the Village. So i am thinking of resurrecting the the 'barrs with the Western Development as our catchment area, who's with me? I know you won't be being a 'boro man as it will be the 'boro's toes we will be stepping on the most!:D

There was an Eire Og in the city around the 50s I think.

jonniegoogle

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Firstly there is no Parish rule in the city. Any player from any of the 4 city parishes can play for whatever club they want Buckley and Michael Fagan for the Boro, Mark Bergin for O'Loughlins either we're are still are living in the Village yet play for the Boro and OLG respectively. Luke Scanlon living in Clara and playing for the Village caused issues. Conor Doheny lives in Threecastles but has always hurled for the Boro. Tommy Walsh lives in Ballycallan but hurlers for Tullaroan, Michael Rice lived in Thomastown parish but played for Carrickshock.

The rule is whatever club you play for when you turn 13 is designated as your "home" club regardless of weather you live inside the parish or not. To change your home club requires you move to the new club and apply to the county board for a redesignation. Other that both your home club, your new club and the county board all have to agree to the move. Not so easy if they want you.

The Boro/St Canice's parish used to extend into Newpark and actually included the current OLG grounds. The parish priest in the late 50's early 60's gave up this area (wasn't very wealthy and there weren't many houses) but he kept the area west of the Castlecomer road as this had some big houses with wealthy people. Some of the people in Newpark never gave up their club loyalty although they are few and far between now.

I know of a case down south a good while back of a chap who went to school outside his own parish(A) to a school in another parish(B) where his mother was a teacher. He played all through school with club B , but as soon as he finished primary school, he was forced to go back to club A(his home parish). It was very upsetting for him and his family at the time but he had no other choice. I don't know if the co board was involved but I think they were consulted.
These rules don't seem to apply to the city teams.
It's one thing I admire about KK lads, is their loyalty to their parish. Look at what goes on below in Waterford, basically club hopping in the hope of winning something

babyjesus14

kksaints wrote: »

There was an Eire Og in the city around the 50s I think.

Indeed there was.

kksaints

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Indeed there was.

Do you know if there was a particular geographical area for them?

tbiggertycome

There are only 3 clubs in the city and environs as it's called. This area has a population of about 30,000. Each team has junior teams, in fact OLG's junior team is intermediate since last year. The Dicksboro Junior team were in the county final and could have gone up too but were beaten but Conahy. If you look at the likes of Portlaoise with one club for roughly the same population you see Kilkenny's situation is not that bad. If you look at the parishes O'Loughlins/Johns Parish has about 11,000 people as does James Stephens/St Patricks parish, the Dicksboro/ St Canices & St Marys parishes has about a 8,000 population. The only club that has two parishes is the smallest and the Dicksboro is in St Canices and the majority of the population live there. St Mary's would be the logical location but it's a very small parish with a small population.

I would not be in favour of a 4th club in the city but what I would be in favour of is that you give guys from the city, up to say 21, the option of joining a selection of clubs in the county that are struggling for numbers. The countyboard would draw up a list of say 10 clubs every year that are struggling for numbers and a guy from the city up to 21 can pick that team as his home team and then the same rules apply. If one particular country club gets a glut of players in one year or over a few years they are removed from the list and a more deserving club given the option to join the list. This way you are supporting clubs with a heritage and history and the rural communities the serve while also giving lads in the city not good enough to make a senior or junior panel currently but with ambitions of playing regularly a chance to join a club that can push back against their demise. This happens in soccer in the county why wouldn't it work in hurling. It obviously has to be monitored and teams removed from the list so you don't create the superclubs which lead to the introduction of the parish rule in the first place.

For instance I would suggest a list of something like Threecastles, Clooneen, Carrigeen, Windgap, Galmoy, Graiguenamanagh, Blacks and Whites, Barrow Rangers, Dunnamaggin, Carrickshock, John Lockes, Tullaroan. I know Tullaroan are senior but nearly every lad of playing age in the parish is lining out could they challenge at senior if they had a few imports? That would be the general idea anyway.

tbiggertycome

kksaints wrote: »

Do you know if there was a particular geographical area for them?

Eire Og and Eirns Own were two city clubs but there was no parish rule at the time. These clubs attracted many county born intercounty men who ended up living in the city and they ended up being kind of superclubs. They both fell by the way side over time I think one of them might have been done away with by the parish rule I can't remember off the top of my head. The Johns parish side of town had multiple different iterations of a club that all came and went before O'Loughlins were set up in the 70's I think.

babyjesus14

kksaints wrote: »

Do you know if there was a particular geographical area for them?

It was pretty much a free for all back in those days. There was only two Senior clubs in the city Eire Og and the Village. The 'boro were mostly Junior back then, the Intermediate grade didn't exist, and the O' Loughlins didn't exist. The better players tended to play with Eire Og, in fact Paddy Larkin, Fans' father, played with Eire Og because they were better than the Village at the time.

Alonzo Moseley

babyjesus14 wrote: »

It was pretty much a free for all back in those days. There was only two Senior clubs in the city Eire Og and the Village. The 'boro were mostly Junior back then, the Intermediate grade didn't exist, and the O' Loughlins didn't exist. The better players tended to play with Eire Og, in fact Paddy Larkin, Fans' father, played with Eire Og because they were better than the Village at the time.

Paddy won Kilkenny club medals with three different clubs in space of just 5 years
Tullaroan, Village and Eire Og
Village were strong in 30s, so maybe other factors to do with Paddy leaving them

A very interesting bit of trivia is that I think Fan himself is in fact the last Eire Og player to win a senior hurling All Ireland
He was hurling with them when he won his first in 1963.

It's a shame so much history of clubs who are no longer with us has disappeared with them
Very little logged of Eire Og despite having some of the best hurlers who ever drew breath
Erin's Own (City) won two county senior and had a number of players on our first great team, but almost nothing exists of their history. I have asked knowledgeable people on them and even they know little or nothing of them or even where they drew from etc.

JJs Left Hand

tbiggertycome wrote: »

There are only 3 clubs in the city and environs as it's called. This area has a population of about 30,000. Each team has junior teams, in fact OLG's junior team is intermediate since last year. The Dicksboro Junior team were in the county final and could have gone up too but were beaten but Conahy. If you look at the likes of Portlaoise with one club for roughly the same population you see Kilkenny's situation is not that bad. If you look at the parishes O'Loughlins/Johns Parish has about 11,000 people as does James Stephens/St Patricks parish, the Dicksboro/ St Canices & St Marys parishes has about a 8,000 population. The only club that has two parishes is the smallest and the Dicksboro is in St Canices and the majority of the population live there. St Mary's would be the logical location but it's a very small parish with a small population.

I would not be in favour of a 4th club in the city but what I would be in favour of is that you give guys from the city, up to say 21, the option of joining a selection of clubs in the county that are struggling for numbers. The countyboard would draw up a list of say 10 clubs every year that are struggling for numbers and a guy from the city up to 21 can pick that team as his home team and then the same rules apply. If one particular country club gets a glut of players in one year or over a few years they are removed from the list and a more deserving club given the option to join the list. This way you are supporting clubs with a heritage and history and the rural communities the serve while also giving lads in the city not good enough to make a senior or junior panel currently but with ambitions of playing regularly a chance to join a club that can push back against their demise. This happens in soccer in the county why wouldn't it work in hurling. It obviously has to be monitored and teams removed from the list so you don't create the superclubs which lead to the introduction of the parish rule in the first place.

For instance I would suggest a list of something like Threecastles, Clooneen, Carrigeen, Windgap, Galmoy, Graiguenamanagh, Blacks and Whites, Barrow Rangers, Dunnamaggin, Carrickshock, John Lockes, Tullaroan. I know Tullaroan are senior but nearly every lad of playing age in the parish is lining out could they challenge at senior if they had a few imports? That would be the general idea anyway.

Of course you'd love that solution as it basically means none of the city clubs would ever lose a good player!!

bamayang

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Margaret's Field is in the Village but a lot of that new housing would be in the Boro. The little road the runs out through Poulgour is the border.

See my map of the parishes here.
Full County Kilkenny GAA clubs
https://goo.gl/maps/Ame4jcA5jH6ojJaV6

That’s the best thing I’ve ever seen on this thread

tbiggertycome

So haven't posted about the match since the defeat and firstly congrats to Waterford they were by far the better team and played with great purpose and once they settled there was only going to be one winner. The rest of this post has nothing to do with Waterford or any other county.

So I had a pop at Cody a few times on here and I've defended him on here. Sad to say he 100% has to go now I said it before but thought he might have changed things and adapted and from what I've found out about this and last years set up I cannot countenance that he could stay over the team. Now we all know the county board won't remove him, the players also respect him too much to organise a Cork style rebellion but he needs to see that the writing is on the wall and his way no longer works. I've thought in the past that once he had these lads long enough that they would learn to think for themselves on the field as is Cody's way. I now realise that, that way doesn't work in the game anymore as it did with our great team of the past. The way teams have changed their approach in the last 5-6 years, makes it idiotic to take to the field without some form of game plan and a plan b that have been practised. We do not do this in anyway and unless you have a plan and an alternative your not going to win an All Ireland anytime soon. These game plans don't need to be complex they just need to be a bit smarter than lumping the ball from anywhere in defence and balls coming down with snow on them which any defence now will eat up unless your TJ Reid.

The most shocking indictment that I heard the last few days and from an impeccable source is that we never once practised the short game in training. That is absolutely staggering, It might be one thing if they hadn't done it before the Dublin match but then said "Jesus we need to practice that" nope they obviously decided to just wing it again and again!!!!! Our best performance last year was against Limerick and I also just heard that we would have gone out like we did against Waterford this year except two of our selectors pestered Cody to allow them practice a plan they had for that game. He eventually relented and he didn't bother getting involved in those sessions and just left the two selectors at it for a week. We got that great performance out of them and then it all went back to Cody's way. Those who say we don't have the players I think are being unfair as we're judging these guys against teams that are actually coached and have some game plans to combat the opposition our lads are just asked to go out and give it 110%. That s*** used to work but not anymore against teams set up properly. That we've won any games is testament to quality of players we have and the intensity Cody demands. If we actually coached them a bit and gave them a game plan what could they do?

Darren Mullen walked off the panel on Wednesday night after not being selected in the 26. I think he was dead right to do that, Cody dropped him after a poor showing in the challenge against Waterford and never gave him a sniff after that. One of the best backs in the county if not the country and not being given a chance is just scandalous and frankly petty from Cody.

DJ didn't turn up to the Dublin match after his young lad was dropped from the panel. He hasn't been as happy in the setup since.

To have double All Ireland club champions and three in a row county champions yet we're only starting 2 of them and only having a few more on the panel is crazy too. I think Cody has put his faith in a particular style of player and ignores those that don't fit, which isn't good enough anymore.

I now fully believe if Cody stays we will not win another All Ireland he doesn't give the players the leg up that all other mangers and coaches are giving their teams. We don't have a coach in there and they don't do coaching, how do they expect guys to improve!!!

We're the only top county that hasn't hired a professional S&C coach and most counties have a fulltime position that looks after Senior, U20, minor, academy players advises clubs and schools. This is one of the main reasons why we can't get any success at underage. Galway, Limerick and others have set up academys and have the top talents selected not sent by clubs and they are given top level coaching and S&C from a young age so when their 19 20 their ready to step up. With the level of talent we have in the county if we put a proper structure in place we could rise to the top again.

This is not having a go at Cody I'm one of his biggest fans but the fact he won't move with the times and adapt his style of management is leading to him tarnishing his own reputation. If he stays much longer he is going to continue breaking the wrong kinds of records which he has already done. These players are exposed to proper coaching and setups at Fitzgibbon and even within their own clubs sometimes, going into the county set up now must seem like going backwards.

This is the first time that everyone I know thinks Cody should go including a few people who know him really well and who would have never said he should go but he's starting to loose the crowd now. We don't want him to be like Alex Ferguson be the best and longest manager English soccer had seen but he left a mess for those that followed by staying too long and appointing his own successor.

I still don't think he will walk away but he should and to immense plaudits and thanks from all Kilkenny people.

tbiggertycome

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Of course you'd love that solution as it basically means none of the city clubs would ever lose a good player!!

Why should they? Who's to say a 15 year old who looks mediocre doesn't decide to leave the Boro because he doesn't like the manager of his team and joins Windgap and becomes the greatest hurler seen in Kilkenny since TJ? This would only apply to city clubs losing players and country teams gaining them. What is the benefit of having 4 teams in the city over this?

Village87

bamayang wrote: »

That’s the best thing I’ve ever seen on this thread

How do you even go about getting to Galmoy

JJs Left Hand

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Why should they? Who's to say a 15 year old who looks mediocre doesn't decide to leave the Boro because he doesn't like the manager of his team and joins Windgap and becomes the greatest hurler seen in Kilkenny since TJ? This would only apply to city clubs losing players and country teams gaining them. What is the benefit of having 4 teams in the city over this?

A fairer competition where a third of the counties population isn't the pick of 3 clubs?

And the idea that a mediocre player (at best) leaves one of the city clubs to join a junior county club and becomes TJ 2.0 is ambitious.

In saying that we had a young lad leave the Boro a couple of years ago because he was living in our parish and I think he's a little dinger.